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Old 04-25-2021, 02:54 PM   #1
fsynth
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Default Interesting discussion on KVR Lv2 hmm

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewt...?f=33&t=561545

Could be a good thing for Lv2 and Linux?
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Old 04-25-2021, 05:44 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by fsynth View Post
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewt...?f=33&t=561545

Could be a good thing for Lv2 and Linux?
I read through the whole thread and now I'm going to do like James and replace every Linux VST2 I possibly can with the LV2 versions that are available.

Steinberg are being assholes with their kill VST2 licensing BS and need to be widely replaced by an open standard like LV2. I was kind of surprised by some of the developers who early in the thread questioned LV2's validity or capabilities, but then later in the thread after reading some LV2 docs are now praising it as being somewhat elegant.
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Old 04-25-2021, 06:07 PM   #3
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That was what I found most interesting, seems it could be a viable solution to what Steinberg has planned? Would not surprise me if that was part of why Reaper now supports lv2? Thanks Justin
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Old 04-25-2021, 07:14 PM   #4
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So far I've added the LSP suite of plugins in LV2 format, and just grabbed the Dragonfly reverbs in LV2 format as well to replace the VST versions of those two sets of plugins that I was using.

I have already been using some of the x42 plugins. Using the limiter in several projects, and I've put the x42 guitar tuner on Guitar Rig track templates that I setup for guitar and bass. Some of the Harrison plugins have become regulars, too like their gate and reverb LV2 plugins. I'll prolly buy those now that Steinberg wants me to stop using VST plugins.
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Old 04-25-2021, 08:21 PM   #5
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thx for the link...not very promising

@Glennbo - only asking as from what have read of your posts (and help to me) I think you have a "finger on the pules of these things", how is the VST3 type looking for Linux? Are there linux wrappers for those, or is it WINE all the way?
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Old 04-25-2021, 09:44 PM   #6
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As for Windows VST3 plugins, I only have one which is the TBPro Audio meter, and it seems to be working okay in WINE, bridged with Yabridge. When I installed all my Windows plugins I only installed the VST2 versions. Much later I installed the TBPro meter so I got a VST3 with it.

I have quite a few native Linux VST3 plugins and most of them work, but I avoid them and use the VST2 versions instead. From now on, I'll be avoiding both VST2 and VST3 as much as I can, and use LV2 plugins when possible.
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Old 04-25-2021, 10:18 PM   #7
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Steinberg are being assholes with their kill VST2 licensing BS
I'm having a hard time, as JUCE support for VST3 is lacking Host specific communication (which Reaper of course does provide), while it works fine with VST2.
(JUCE does support VST3 on Linux.)

-Michael

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Old 04-26-2021, 01:59 AM   #8
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I think audio company will develope their own plugin format in their product rather than using lv2 format.


I am also happy to see everyone hate Steinberg. haha.
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Old 04-26-2021, 04:11 AM   #9
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thx for the link...not very promising

@Glennbo - only asking as from what have read of your posts (and help to me) I think you have a "finger on the pules of these things", how is the VST3 type looking for Linux? Are there linux wrappers for those, or is it WINE all the way?
The whole 'forced obsolescence' issue with VST2 (reminds me of a few tech companies ) is of course a crappy situation to be in. That being said the, VST3 is a well designed format, and I don't see it going away anytime soon since it was made to be easily extensible from the get go (as opposed to VST2's dispatcher approach which means that outside of a very specific opcode, only Steinberg would be able to add new functionality). It's of course also natively supported on Linux, and the SDK is available under the GPL which is great for FOSS since you don't have to worry about any licensing shenanigans. But yes, even if VST2 had a lot of issues, Steinberg's handling of VST2's end of life is a bit unpleasant to say the least.
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Old 04-26-2021, 06:30 AM   #10
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The whole 'forced obsolescence' issue with VST2 (reminds me of a few tech companies ) is of course a crappy situation to be in. That being said the, VST3 is a well designed format, and I don't see it going away anytime soon since it was made to be easily extensible from the get go (as opposed to VST2's dispatcher approach which means that outside of a very specific opcode, only Steinberg would be able to add new functionality). It's of course also natively supported on Linux, and the SDK is available under the GPL which is great for FOSS since you don't have to worry about any licensing shenanigans. But yes, even if VST2 had a lot of issues, Steinberg's handling of VST2's end of life is a bit unpleasant to say the least.
The forced obsolescence instantly made me think of Microsoft. They burned me multiple times dropping support for expensive hardware items I've owned, from Primera CD/DVD printers, to CableCARD tuners that worked with the now obsoleted "Media Center".

Well, I had enough of Microsoft and look where I am now. Removed seven copies of Windows and replaced it with Linux on all the machines in my house. Steinberg is on my shit list now, and I will begin actively avoiding VST/VST3 if there is any other alternative for all future plugin purchases. Harrison's offerings are all decent LV2 plugins, and a couple of those will probably be my next plugin buys.
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Old 04-26-2021, 07:21 AM   #11
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Everything I have read so far about this seems to only speak of Vst2 plugins.
Does make me wonder when this will affect hosts that support Vst2?
I am not giving up any VST2's I have they all run perfect, do what I need and provided I have a host that supports them will continue to work.
Machines are not a problem! have thirteen i5 Dell and Lenovo and half a dozen i3 lenovo's that even had pci slots so all my 20 year old Maudio cards still work fine.
All have a clean Win7 installed so for me Vst2 will live on for a long time.
Although those machines are not the latest greatest, they are each like a piece of gear to me.

None of the plugins I have purchased have funky registrations so no need for online activation.
I have always went for the Vst2 its only over the past six months or so that the tide turned to where new plugins are Vst3 so I have only a few.

But back to Lv2! Sure would be nice if there were a plugin SDK that was truly an open standard. With some of the minds I am seeing looking at Lv2 and after reading the long term goals from the Lv2 creator it just might work.
Vst3 will no doubt continue as it is too big to just go away.
But in some ways it seems Steinberg is shooting them selves in the foot by their actions. Time will tell?
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Old 04-26-2021, 10:10 AM   #12
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well, this is the linux department, but lv2 runs just as well under win
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Old 04-26-2021, 10:28 AM   #13
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well, this is the linux department, but lv2 runs just as well under win
Lol, From what I have read Lv2 is cross platform?
But myself have never seen any Win or Mac lv2's? Was why I posted here in the Linux Dept.
If you think others may be interested maybe I should have posted in General Discussion Forum? Just updated my Win7 machine to Reaper 6.28 and was surprised\delighted to see Lv2 in the plugin options.
Silly me was using v4.78 because it ran my plugins so well and was afraid the latest version may not do so well even though I have a license for v6-7.
Again silly me updated yesterday and all my plugins run perfect in v6.28 Yay
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Old 04-26-2021, 10:42 AM   #14
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It sure sounded to me from the KVR thread that we are in some kind of "grace period" where makers of DAWs are being granted permission to have VST2 support. Also, it sounded like to me that if a developer has not signed the new worded license agreement, that they can continue with VST2, but might start hitting problems with VST3.

Urs from U-He said in that thread that he was not signing the license agreement, which makes me wonder how developers of DAW software like REAPER would fare if they signed it with the new clauses. Specifically the we can terminate your license if we want to at any time, and you will only support VST3 stuff, which sounds like Microsoft strong arm tactics.

What happens for instance if say Justin signed the new license agreement and Steinberg decides the grace period is over for developers of DAW software, REAPER with only VST3 support or lose your entire license to include any version of VST?
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Old 04-26-2021, 11:04 AM   #15
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LV2 is, and isn't cross-platform compatible in the same way VST is, and isn't cross-platform compatible. Plugins can be compiled as Windows LV2, Linux LV2, or Mac LV2. But a plugin made for one OS won't work under another.

I read that thread, including this part:

Quote:
Ok i asked the question explicitly @steinberg forum and Yvan replied that hosts that support VST 2 now, will still be allowed to continue to support VST 2 in the future in order to support user projects made in the past using (legacy) VST 2 plugs. The VST 3 license agreement will be updated.
So...good news, I guess? For now? Until they change their mind again? Or just decide to not bother thinking about their draconian licence terms? Lol.
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Old 04-26-2021, 11:53 AM   #16
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Not sure if it is ok? but I cross posted in the General Discussion Forum
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=252739

James, that I was aware of kind of goes without saying for the different platforms.
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Old 04-26-2021, 12:30 PM   #17
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I just wanted to clear that up for anyone reading this thread. It's been misunderstood before.

I also thought this part of the VST3 SDK terms and conditions was cute:

Quote:
VST3 License Agreement § 9 TERM AND TERMINATION: c) Steinberg is entitled to terminate this agreement with a 6 months written notice if Steinberg offers a new, e.g. amended, VST 3 Plug-In SDK Licensing Agreement. For the validity of the termination it shall be sufficient that Steinberg sends the termination to the last known email address of the Licensee.
Given what they did to revoke VST 2 licensing already, it means they could potentially go further next time saying "You don't even need to have signed the new VST 3 SDK license. We emailed your last-known email address, therefore you agreed to the new terms of the new VST 3 SDK which you haven't even seen or read. We revoked the right for your DAW to use VST 2 plugins." Not that they would, but still.

The legality of these things seems suspect at best too.
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Old 04-26-2021, 01:49 PM   #18
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As for Windows VST3 plugins, I only have one which is the TBPro Audio meter, and it seems to be working okay in WINE, bridged with Yabridge. When I installed all my Windows plugins I only installed the VST2 versions. Much later I installed the TBPro meter so I got a VST3 with it.

I have quite a few native Linux VST3 plugins and most of them work, but I avoid them and use the VST2 versions instead. From now on, I'll be avoiding both VST2 and VST3 as much as I can, and use LV2 plugins when possible.
Cool, thanks. If only there was a Sampletank replacement, I'd concur about the LV2 only, I mean, if one is going to Linux, it might as well be all the way.

Unfortunately that particular VST, for me, figures in pretty much every Sonar project I am porting over to Reaper

Just a supplementary Q (and sorry for the sidetrack here), Yarbridge, LinVST or LADSPA ? I see you mentioned Yarbridge, haven't heard of that one. Is it better than the other two?
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Old 04-26-2021, 02:18 PM   #19
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Cool, thanks. If only there was a Sampletank replacement, I'd concur about the LV2 only, I mean, if one is going to Linux, it might as well be all the way.

Unfortunately that particular VST, for me, figures in pretty much every Sonar project I am porting over to Reaper

Just a supplementary Q (and sorry for the sidetrack here), Yarbridge, LinVST or LADSPA ? I see you mentioned Yarbridge, haven't heard of that one. Is it better than the other two?
I have both Yabridge and LinVST setup. Currently I'm trying Yabridge exclusively, and all my projects that were created using LinVST still open normally. One plugin that works with Yabridge and doesn't with LinVST is the Native Instruments B4fx.dll which is the Leslie speaker cabinet only from the B4 Hammond Organ plugin. I missed not having that, and have setup both real guitar amp and Guitar Rig based track templates for guitar that include the Leslie from the B4.
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Old 04-26-2021, 04:41 PM   #20
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Cool, I've read good things about that plug!

So Yarbridge and LinVST are about the same horse just different colours, yeah?
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Old 04-26-2021, 07:07 PM   #21
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Cool, I've read good things about that plug!

So Yarbridge and LinVST are about the same horse just different colours, yeah?
I've done a few longer writeups for my motivations for working on yabridge before, but in short my goal with yabridge has always been to bring Windows plugin bridging to the next level. In terms of plugin support of course, but even more so in terms of user experience and feature support. Because while Wine plugin bridging has been a thing for years (thanks to the fantastic work of a number of dedicated developers), I always felt like it wasn't quite as good as it could have been. So with yabridge, the ultimate goal is to basically do for audio plugin bridging what DXVK has done for gaming. Yabridge is currently also the only way to do real VST3 plugin bridging, which gets you access to a number of fatures that VST2 plugins don't support and they also tend to perform slightly better than their VST2 counterparts because of the way audio processing in VST3 works.
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Old 04-26-2021, 08:19 PM   #22
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I have both Yabridge and LinVST setup. Currently I'm trying Yabridge exclusively, and all my projects that were created using LinVST still open normally. One plugin that works with Yabridge and doesn't with LinVST is the Native Instruments B4fx.dll which is the Leslie speaker cabinet only from the B4 Hammond Organ plugin. I missed not having that, and have setup both real guitar amp and Guitar Rig based track templates for guitar that include the Leslie from the B4.
Looks like (for B4 II FX.dll) there is some processReplacing problem which most plugins support and which I wouldn't expect to cause an error.

B4 II.dll is ok.

The error I get is

LinVst version 4.2
Loading /home/osxuser/.wine/drive_c/Program Files (x86)/Native Instruments/B4 II/VSTPlugins/B4 II FX.dll
dssi-vst-server: ERROR: Plugin does not support processReplacing (required)
Failed to load dll!
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Old 04-26-2021, 08:40 PM   #23
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Looks like (for B4 II FX.dll) there is some processReplacing problem which most plugins support and which I wouldn't expect to cause an error.

B4 II.dll is ok.

The error I get is

LinVst version 4.2
Loading /home/osxuser/.wine/drive_c/Program Files (x86)/Native Instruments/B4 II/VSTPlugins/B4 II FX.dll
dssi-vst-server: ERROR: Plugin does not support processReplacing (required)
Failed to load dll!
I always figured it was something to do with the plugin looking like both a midi synth and an audio plugin. I got the same error with Native Instruments FM7fx.dll which lets you use audio from the track as either the carrier or modulator on a couple of special synth patches in the original FM7.
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Old 04-26-2021, 08:48 PM   #24
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I've done a few longer writeups for my motivations for working on yabridge before, but in short my goal with yabridge has always been to bring Windows plugin bridging to the next level. In terms of plugin support of course, but even more so in terms of user experience and feature support. Because while Wine plugin bridging has been a thing for years (thanks to the fantastic work of a number of dedicated developers), I always felt like it wasn't quite as good as it could have been. So with yabridge, the ultimate goal is to basically do for audio plugin bridging what DXVK has done for gaming. Yabridge is currently also the only way to do real VST3 plugin bridging, which gets you access to a number of fatures that VST2 plugins don't support and they also tend to perform slightly better than their VST2 counterparts because of the way audio processing in VST3 works.
What do you mean "real".

It's not real, it's a wrapper.

A real vst3 plugin would be a Linux Native vst3 if someone wanted to put the real term onto vst3.

"real" sounds like a marketing term.

It's like saying that wacvst (that Linvst is based on) was the first "real" vst2 wine bridge, who cares about "real".

If you mean that Linvst3 is fake and your vst3 bridge is real, then LinVst3 is a few years old and Ardour and Waveform and maybe other daws did not support native vst3 at that time so a vst2 to vst3 bridge was the way to go.

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Old 04-26-2021, 09:04 PM   #25
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Most of my plugins are vst3 and lv2 because vst2 has been forced out by Steinberg.

Vst3 is not that different from vst2 except for a few added features that a lot of plugin devs don't use, Steinberg had a vst3 to vst2 compile option in their SDK for instance and vst2 to vst3 wrappers can exist, it's possible because vst3 is not that different from vst2 (except for some features).

Steinberg could have made a vst2 backwards compatible vst3 but they didn't, instead they went for a Microsoft COM based model for vst3 and have now pushed out vst2.

Maybe it's due to Steinberg competing with au and pro tools plugins, but a lot of devs don't like vst3 as can be seen at KVR etc and the vst3 pickup since it was introduced has been minimal, so now Steinberg is forcing vst3 on users whether they like it or not.

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Old 04-26-2021, 09:48 PM   #26
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What do you mean "real".

...so a vst2 to vst3 bridge was the way to go.
LinVST doesn't bridge VST3 directly, right? If so, I think we know what Robbert means when he says "real VST3 plugin bridging".

Anyway Robbert is in the Netherlands. I don't think he intended offense by using the word "real" in that way.
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Old 04-26-2021, 11:52 PM   #27
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LinVST doesn't bridge VST3 directly, right? If so, I think we know what Robbert means when he says "real VST3 plugin bridging".

Anyway Robbert is in the Netherlands. I don't think he intended offense by using the word "real" in that way.
LinVst3 is a vst2 to vst3 wrapper, written at the time when multiple Linux Daws did not have vst3 support.

Something like yabridge vst3 is a vst3 to vst3 wrapper.

No wrapper can be real imo.

If I called LinVst a real vst2 wrapper, it's meaningless.

Yabridge vst3 to vst3 wrapper is the first for Linux but a wrapper can not be real imo.

JUCE was maybe the first for vst3 wrapping code and they don't use first or real.

The whole idea of a wrapper is to fake it, make it look real when it isn't.

Faking vst2 to vst3 or faking vst3 to vst3 is not real.

If a vst2 to vst3 wrapper is fake and a vst3 to vst3 wrapper is real, then I don't think that is quite right.

Just my opinion by the way.

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Old 04-27-2021, 04:55 AM   #28
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What do you mean "real".

It's not real, it's a wrapper.

A real vst3 plugin would be a Linux Native vst3 if someone wanted to put the real term onto vst3.

"real" sounds like a marketing term.

It's like saying that wacvst (that Linvst is based on) was the first "real" vst2 wine bridge, who cares about "real".

If you mean that Linvst3 is fake and your vst3 bridge is real, then LinVst3 is a few years old and Ardour and Waveform and maybe other daws did not support native vst3 at that time so a vst2 to vst3 bridge was the way to go.
I meant real "VST3 plugin bridging", not "real VST3" plugin bridging. I feel like there's has been a misunderstanding here. The number one goal with yabridge has always been correctness. A Windows VST2 or VST3 plugin run through yabridge with the Linux version of REAPER has to be behave in the exact same way as when you were to use that plugin in the Windows version of REAPER running under Wine. If something works a certain way under the Windows version of REAPER, then it should also work in the same way under yabridge. And if something doesn't work, then it would be expected that it also doesn't work under yabridge. When you start interpreting or translating plugin function calls, you are starting to enter uncharted territories and plugins may start behaving incorrectly because they were never meant to be used that way. And on top of that, when using a VST3 to VST2 adapter on the Wine side so that the Linux plugin host thinks it's interacting with a VST2 plugin, then you're introducing a lot of caveats. You're losing out on the ability to benefit from the new VST3 features, from the potentially better bridging performance, and you also won't be able to share the project with Windows or macOS users since the VST2 plugin you're using doesn't actually exist. To elaborate on this, some useful VST3 features I see being used all the time are dynamic bus layouts, host-driven editor resizing, host created context menus, string-to-parameter value translation for more useable generic plugin UIs, and track context information so that plugins like Pro-Q3, Melodyne 5 and MMultiAnalyzer know the name of the track they're on. And the performance improvements I'm talking about come from the fact that during an audio processing call with VST2 you will have to cross the process boundary for the audio processing, for sending events, for potentially receiving events, to get the transport information, and then another time for every parameter change a plugin outputs (as the result of MIDI learn, for instance). With VST3 all of that gets wrapped up in the `ProcessData` object passed to `IAudioProcessor:: process()`.

I do of course understand the added benefit of having LinVst3 be able to wrap Windows VST3 plugins in a Linux VST2 plugin since for a couple of years only Bitwig and REAPER supported VST3 plugins on Linux, but I do believe that yabridge's approach with one-to-one VST3 plugin bridging is the future here.

Last edited by robbert-vdh; 04-27-2021 at 04:59 AM. Reason: Prevent the forum from parsing the :p in the middle of ::process()
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Old 04-27-2021, 05:59 AM   #29
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It sure sounded to me from the KVR thread that we are in some kind of "grace period" where makers of DAWs are being granted permission to have VST2 support.
DAWs that currently support VST2 can continue supporting VST2.

https://forums.steinberg.net/t/vst-3...-faq/201638/13

This will not go away, I don't think. They don't really want to kill all the old projects people did by forcing DAW developers to remove VST2 hosting support from them. That would be quite horrific. I don't think they're that dumb to actually try and do that.

This just means no new VST2s will ever appear, new plugin developers will be allowed making VST3s only.

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That being said the, VST3 is a well designed format
That's a well designed joke. VST3 is bloated, over-engineered, doesn't cover all cases VST2 worked just fine with (MIDI output? Receiving raw MIDI data? Destroying serial nature of MIDI by breaking up note events from CCs and so on being received through different means?), and I mean if after 13 years there's still no fast and widespread adoption happening and Steiny had to pull legal means to force adoption doesn't show how bad it is, I don't know what will.

The only good thing about VST3 is that it is dual-licensed as commercial and GPL3, allowing open source projects. That and multiple MIDI busses. Everything else is just shit, could've been added to VST2 without problems (and less bloat).

Last edited by EvilDragon; 04-27-2021 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 04-27-2021, 06:35 AM   #30
mschnell
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That's a well designed joke.
There must be a reason why Native Instruments strictly sticks to VST2.

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Old 04-27-2021, 07:51 AM   #31
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That's a well designed joke. VST3 is bloated, over-engineered, doesn't cover all cases VST2 worked just fine with (MIDI output? Receiving raw MIDI data? Destroying serial nature of MIDI by breaking up note events from CCs and so on being received through different means?), and I mean if after 13 years there's still no fast and widespread adoption happening and Steiny had to pull legal means to force adoption doesn't show how bad it is, I don't know what will.

The only good thing about VST3 is that it is dual-licensed as commercial and GPL3, allowing open source projects. That and multiple MIDI busses. Everything else is just shit, could've been added to VST2 without problems (and less bloat).
Thanks for this, ED. This is the best informative rant I've read all month lol.
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Old 04-27-2021, 08:25 AM   #32
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DAWs that currently support VST2 can continue supporting VST2.

https://forums.steinberg.net/t/vst-3...-faq/201638/13

This will not go away, I don't think. They don't really want to kill all the old projects people did by forcing DAW developers to remove VST2 hosting support from them. That would be quite horrific. I don't think they're that dumb to actually try and do that.

This just means no new VST2s will ever appear, new plugin developers will be allowed making VST3s only.
Thanks for the link ED. It seems that they are just making it up as they go along, only concerned with new ways to force you to use Internet Explorer . . . er, I mean VST3, and have not really thought through the implications of their license changes for developers.
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Old 04-27-2021, 09:07 AM   #33
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I've done a few longer writeups for my motivations for working on yabridge before, but in short my goal with yabridge has always been to bring Windows plugin bridging to the next level. In terms of plugin support of course, but even more so in terms of user experience and feature support. Because while Wine plugin bridging has been a thing for years (thanks to the fantastic work of a number of dedicated developers), I always felt like it wasn't quite as good as it could have been. So with yabridge, the ultimate goal is to basically do for audio plugin bridging what DXVK has done for gaming. Yabridge is currently also the only way to do real VST3 plugin bridging, which gets you access to a number of fatures that VST2 plugins don't support and they also tend to perform slightly better than their VST2 counterparts because of the way audio processing in VST3 works.
Cool! Thanks for the great explanation.
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