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01-26-2013, 07:27 AM
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#81
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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As far as drum editing is concerned, if you are really concerned about individual note articulations, could I suggest you use a track per note/drumpad? I use this on stuff I know is going to get tricky and it removes all possibility of confusion. You can always merge everything once you are through editing.
I get nervous when people start asking for this sort of functionality when a valid way of doing it well already exists.
As you lot know I am not a huge fan of Reapers MIDI editing paradigm as it is right now, but what you are suggesting is something for way down the line when the devs have run out of other stuff to do IMHO.
Sorry, not meaning to offend if this does.
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01-26-2013, 07:49 AM
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#82
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
Good to see midi love back from hiatus.
Midi editing & production workflow was always the thing that kept me from giving Reaper any real chance at being my goto app and I always hoped that would change. It's changing, but not in a direction I personally like, mmv on that as usual, I'm sure for many others it will be great so I'm not implying my opinion is the right one.
Not wanting it to be like Cubase or PT or any other sequencer bit for bit but some of the design choices here I just can't get a feel for. For example, the tracklist being on the right just feels wrong to me because I tend to think "left to right" and work the same way. The navigator thing is something that I'd never personally use, for me it just takes up way too much real estate.
Anyway, I was one of the people banging the midi drums and the above is generally why my input on this new design would probably not be all useful since I'm not a fan of this particular direction (design wise, not lower level functionality wise).
But still, good stuff for the many users who will feel differently about all that and I know there will be many.
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You sound like you are giving up. Please don't.
I'm not at all sure there are many users who want to have the track list on right side. At least I have not seen any good explanations why it must be on the right side. Devs have not given any arguments supporting the right side design either.
Some users probably like to have it on the right side, but those might not be in the majority.
Instead, there has been requests to put it to left side because then the layout is better aligned when docked midi editor is synced to arrange view timeline.
And there has been multiple requests to let user select which side the track list is docked to.
And regarding "the navigator thing" aka "media item lane", you can keep it hidden all the time. There are many good MIDI editing workflows where the "media item lane" is not needed at all. And I think (hope) Reaper will fully support those workflows when the implementation of these new features is complete.
jnif
Last edited by jnif; 01-26-2013 at 07:56 AM.
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01-26-2013, 07:58 AM
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#83
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,746
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If we move the MIDI track list to the left, will anyone (who is reading this) say "no I liked it where it was"?
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01-26-2013, 08:04 AM
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#84
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Can't reproduce.
The only thing that happens is that the notes are NOT hidden when you change the channel via note properties (which they should be, since they're not on THAT channel anymore). As soon as you change the visible channel, they're not there anymore. So that's confusing a bit.
Example: set "Channel" to 1, enter some notes. Select them, note properties, set channel to 5 and press Apply or OK. The notes are still displayed. Now go to channel 2 and back to channel 1, the notes won't be there anymore. But if you go to channel 5, they're there.
This needs to be remedied.
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Thanks. Did you have that drop down set to channel 1 when changing the notes channel as if I set it to all it doesn't keep the notes.
What I didn't check though is if the notes don't actually play back after you do the last stages of your test because I came to notice this bug after getting notes playing back on both channels but I didn't try your last stage. Will do soon.
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01-26-2013, 08:08 AM
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#85
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
If we move the MIDI track list to the left, will anyone (who is reading this) say "no I liked it where it was"?
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I was going to mention that although I want it on the left too. If I was to dock the editor to the bottom of the arrange and then show both the track and item selector plus have synced transport on. The piano roll on the left side would take up quite a bit of room and most likely" bleed over" into the arrange page being properly lined up with the editor.
In other words, would be great to be able to either horizontally shrink the piano roll or double click the verticaledge to hide it.
I think the other reason it's on the right at the moment is that if we get a docked filter setup included in the track selector and also have the item selector's left side track indicator then that's a lot of vertical stuff to fit in.
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01-26-2013, 08:20 AM
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#86
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Perth, W.A.
Posts: 1,708
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How do you undock the track selector.
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01-26-2013, 08:39 AM
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#87
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
If we move the MIDI track list to the left, will anyone (who is reading this) say "no I liked it where it was"?
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Arabic speakers might, but usually we read from the left, which is also why the TCP isn't on the right.
The only DAW I know that has a track panel of any kind on the right is Tracktion.
"see they do it"
Yeah, and nobody else. Put it on the left, unless there's a good reason not to. There are plenty to put it on the left.
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01-26-2013, 08:42 AM
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#88
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Perth, W.A.
Posts: 1,708
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Can we have actions to toggle the editor keyboard and the track selector?
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01-26-2013, 08:45 AM
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#89
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Perth, W.A.
Posts: 1,708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
Arabic speakers might, but usually we read from the left, which is also why the TCP isn't on the right.
The only DAW I know that has a track panel of any kind on the right is Tracktion.
"see they do it"
Yeah, and nobody else. Put it on the left, unless there's a good reason not to. There are plenty to put it on the left.
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I'd still like it undocked in it's own separate window.
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01-26-2013, 08:48 AM
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#90
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Perth, W.A.
Posts: 1,708
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And .. do you think it's just possible I'm not even talking about the same thing? It is a track selector right? I mean that's what it says in the menu. Even the developer can't refer to what he called it or is the midi selector something else? It's ambiguous at best.
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01-26-2013, 08:50 AM
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#91
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: India- Maharashtra - Pune
Posts: 143
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Found a Bridging Bug it was present in old versions and still present here.
I have made a video that will explain the bridging vst problem. here is the link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvH-0...ature=youtu.be
I dont know how to embed the video on the reaper forum. But I hv seen Airon has done that b4. :-)
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01-26-2013, 08:52 AM
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#92
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dayton, Ohio USA
Posts: 1,714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazed
And .. do you think it's just possible I'm not even talking about the same thing? It is a track selector right? I mean that's what it says in the menu. Even the developer can't refer to what he called it or is the midi selector something else? It's ambiguous at best.
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Well technically it is a list of only those tracks that contain midi items (and their parent tracks, until that hopefully changes!).
I'm pretty sure you're talking about the same thing.
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01-26-2013, 08:53 AM
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#93
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belgium
Posts: 10,474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
If we move the MIDI track list to the left, will anyone (who is reading this) say "no I liked it where it was"?
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For me is the same, Not very important IMHO
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01-26-2013, 08:56 AM
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#94
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
If we move the MIDI track list to the left, will anyone (who is reading this) say "no I liked it where it was"?
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My early reaction to the track list was "this ought to be on the left side". But it may be a matter of habit. Or maybe I wouldn't like it as much if the track list goes on the left. I think this is trivial. The important thing is the functionality, and that it's docked to the MIDI editor (I wouldn't mind it floating as an option if others prefer that of course).
But if we are to discuss small issues, the lack of any divider bar between the track list and the piano roll annoys me personally. There is an invisible gap, with a sweet spot for resizing, not very good.
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01-26-2013, 08:58 AM
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#95
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers
In other words, would be great to be able to either horizontally shrink the piano roll or double click the verticaledge to hide it.
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Adding new elements to the MIDI Editor window (like the track list and the media item lane) requires rethinking the disposition and size of the existing ones, like we do with furniture in rooms of a house.
Since it's unlikely we ever get Walter in the ME, it's the right time to align and size things sensibly in there since it's getting more crowded.
I'm thinking specifically about :
1. The piano keys. Too long!
2. The note and time values at the top right corner of the MIDI toolbar. Doesn't make sense for looking all the way up to there when determining the value is done with the mouse pointer.
3. The transport and all the elements displayed there should be showable/hidable like the one in the main screen.
4. The MIDI toolbar should be showable/hidable like in the main screen. I know my keyboard shortcuts after a while.
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01-26-2013, 09:01 AM
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#96
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,713
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OSX cursor switching
OSX 10.6.8
I've seen an intermittent issue with windows docked in a floating docker. Seen with the Mixer so far:
- when the floating docked mixer is unfocussed, cursor switches appropriately
- when it is focussed, cursor does not switch over the title bar
Here's a gif:
After undocking and redocking the mixer, I cannot reproduce it.
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01-26-2013, 09:11 AM
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#97
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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To be clear, my comment about it being on the right was an observation, not a complaint. I assumed that most were ok with it and I certainly don't want to superimpose my preferences onto others.
Generally speaking, like Airon suggested, I personaly do think left to right in almost all regards as relates to working in DAWs and signal flow or conceptually in general when editing. I mean, even the default master bus being on the left screws up my internal visualation of signal flow, but of course you can put that on right.
Anyway, I see these kinds of (docked anyway) track lists as just different representations of the arrange track lists and it seems odd to me on the right as relates to ... "Select some things to edit" & "Edit the Things you Selected" ... being a right to left process when the song flow (the timeline) is a left to right (and top to down) process.
Last edited by Lawrence; 01-26-2013 at 09:20 AM.
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01-26-2013, 09:16 AM
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#98
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,713
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
I mean, even the default master bus being on the left screws up my internal visualation of signal flow, but of course you can put that on right.
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A bit ot perhaps, but the mixer master being on the left by default makes perfect sense in reaper. It matches the track list signal flow. Folder parents above children, the master is effectively the root parent. it's just flipped 90deg anticlockwise in the mixer. All folder subgroup buses being on the left must drive you mad as well
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01-26-2013, 09:17 AM
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#99
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belgium
Posts: 10,474
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Quote:
As far as drum editing is concerned, if you are really concerned about individual note articulations, could I suggest you use a track per note/drumpad?
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Hum... try to use track by note in such a context of drum editing
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/30049114/li...rum%20fill.jpg
It would be completly unusable
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01-26-2013, 09:23 AM
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#100
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 89
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I'm reading from left to right, so moving the track selector on left will make sense to me.
Choosing on left what is on the right ( like in all files explorer )
And it will match the way we read track name in tcp when working in the arrange with the same logic, spot track name on left, and find the related content on right .
But the best way to satisfy everyone is certainly to be able to choose ( left or right ).
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01-26-2013, 09:23 AM
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#101
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Perth, W.A.
Posts: 1,708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlloyd
A bit ot perhaps, but the mixer master being on the left by default makes perfect sense in reaper. It matches the track list signal flow. Folder parents above children, the master is effectively the root parent. it's just flipped 90deg anticlockwise in the mixer. All folder subgroup buses being on the left must drive you mad as well
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I use ordinary tracks for busses exactly for that reason. Never used a folder in Reaper yet.
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01-26-2013, 09:23 AM
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#102
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlloyd
A bit ot perhaps, but the mixer master being on the left by default makes perfect sense in reaper. It matches the track list signal flow. Folder parents above children, the master is effectively the root parent. it's just flipped 90deg anticlockwise in the mixer. All folder subgroup buses being on the left must drive you mad as well
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Makes sense to me as an arrange track, to expose the master at the bottom of my arrange tracks as an arrange track. My logical vertical thinking flows the same way, top to bottom. In the mixer though, not so much, for me, mmv on that of course. My console channels always flow left to right, from drums to master.
But you can put it in either position so it's kinda irrelevant, the personal choice. If it was permanetly locked left I wouldn't like it at all, the Master, being there.
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01-26-2013, 09:30 AM
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#103
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
If we move the MIDI track list to the left, will anyone (who is reading this) say "no I liked it where it was"?
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Give an option to have it on either side and everybody's happy. Personally I want it on the right side (because Sonar had it like that). And I also want it to remember its width GLOBALLY.
Mikeroephonics gave an excellent suggestion for track list options. PLEASE!!! Make that menu happen and EVERYBODY IS REALLY gonna be happy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
Arabic speakers might, but usually we read from the left, which is also why the TCP isn't on the right.
The only DAW I know that has a track panel of any kind on the right is Tracktion.
"see they do it"
Yeah, and nobody else. Put it on the left, unless there's a good reason not to. There are plenty to put it on the left.
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Sonar has had track list in the MIDI editor on the RIGHT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan
But if we are to discuss small issues, the lack of any divider bar between the track list and the piano roll annoys me personally. There is an invisible gap, with a sweet spot for resizing, not very good.
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Yes, the lack of any kind of divider annoys the hell out of me, too.
Last edited by EvilDragon; 01-26-2013 at 09:36 AM.
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01-26-2013, 09:39 AM
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#104
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Personally I want it on the right side (because Sonar had it like that).
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This is probably the worst argument I have ever heard
jnif
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01-26-2013, 09:40 AM
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#105
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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OK, how about this one: I have gotten used to having it on the right side and I want to keep it that way.
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01-26-2013, 09:44 AM
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#106
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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There is one thing that I find very annoying in Reaper, and I hope devs can easily fix it.
It's the virtual keyboard (and the piano roll in MIDI Editor) and the way velocities are distributed across the length of a key. It's not linear with equal segment sizes and it's not nice that it's not linear with equal segment sizes. Can you make the keys have, say 9 EQUAL segments across the length of a key, so it would have 127, 112, 96, 80, 64, 48, 32, 16 and 1?
This would be a LOT better.
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01-26-2013, 09:45 AM
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#107
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
OK, how about this one: I have gotten used to having it on the right side and I want to keep it that way.
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People have gotten used to all kinds of bad things when they have used other evil DAWs
jnif
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01-26-2013, 09:46 AM
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#108
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Now you're just messing with me and that's not nice. I WANT IT ON THE RIGHT SIDE. OK?!
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01-26-2013, 09:49 AM
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#109
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Now you're just messing with me and that's not nice. I WANT IT ON THE RIGHT SIDE. OK?!
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Do you think you would not be able to get used to having it on the left side? Why?
jnif
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01-26-2013, 09:52 AM
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#110
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Perhaps I could, but I wouldn't find it natural (and no, I'm not arabic. Ironically I'm right-handed but I cut my meat with knife in my LEFT hand. Figure that one out!).
Also having an option would definitely HELP those who are transfering from other DAWs. Which, whadaaya know, includes Sonar, too.
Bottom line, I want TL on the right side of ME (AND that by default). Period.
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01-26-2013, 09:52 AM
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#111
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Is there any real need to debate it when they can probably do both?
Seems counterproductive.
I agree, the option seems to settle it? ED won't have to get used to it on the left, he can leave it on the right, and people like me who don't like it on the right, can put it on the left.
What's to debate?
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01-26-2013, 09:54 AM
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#112
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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I honestly think the devs should do EXACTLY what mikeroephonics suggested above. Add all those options. In THIS prerelease cycle, if possible.
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01-26-2013, 09:56 AM
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#113
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Perth, W.A.
Posts: 1,708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif
Do you think you would not be able to get used to having it on the left side? Why?
jnif
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Can't we just make the thing dockable then we can have it where we like?
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01-26-2013, 10:01 AM
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#114
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dayton, Ohio USA
Posts: 1,714
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The midi track list folder hierarchy changes the arrange view. I don't think I like this. Meaning, when I collapse the folders in the ME, the tracks in the arrange view TCP go to their smallest state.
Is there a way to unlink those?
And, I would like the chance to get used to having the track list on the left.
I also kind of think the menu entries for "Track Selector" and "Media Item Selector" should go under the "View" menu, not the "Contents" menu. That would make it consistent with where the Filter Events menu item is located.
On the same subject, the Contents menu has entries for "Close active media item", "Close all secondary visible media items", and "Clear editor when changing active media items (shift toggles)". That last entry make more sense under the "Options" menu. After all, it's an option that affects what happens when you do certain things, right?
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01-26-2013, 10:03 AM
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#115
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazed
Can't we just make the thing dockable then we can have it where we like?
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Of course.
I'm just wondering why schwa asked about moving it to left side. Maybe devs are not willing to make it dockable. Just guessing...
And in addition to that, I would like to learn about other users workflows. If someone has found a good reason to keep the track list on the right side, I might be able to learn something new and gain more understanding about MIDI editing and about GUI design.
jnif
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01-26-2013, 10:08 AM
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#116
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinW
I also kind of think the menu entries for "Track Selector" and "Media Item Selector" should go under the "View" menu, not the "Contents" menu. That would make it consistent with where the Filter Events menu item is located.
On the same subject, the Contents menu has entries for "Close active media item", "Close all secondary visible media items", and "Clear editor when changing active media items (shift toggles)". That last entry make more sense under the "Options" menu. After all, it's an option that affects what happens when you do certain things, right?
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Agreed with this!
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01-26-2013, 10:10 AM
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#117
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
If we move the MIDI track list to the left, will anyone (who is reading this) say "no I liked it where it was"?
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Right Side!!
Reaching across the piano keys clear to the left to click on a track is not what I'd call handy.
Last edited by Tod; 01-26-2013 at 10:24 AM.
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01-26-2013, 10:12 AM
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#118
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Give an option to have it on either side and everybody's happy. Personally I want it on the right side (because Sonar had it like that). And I also want it to remember its width GLOBALLY.
Sonar has had track list in the MIDI editor on the RIGHT.
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The question is why did they think it was a good idea.
Here's practical reason why the left side is well suited to display a track list.
When the midi editor is run in sync with the arrangement and the editor thus shows the places in time at the same horizontal position as the arrangement does, placing the track list or whatever else is in there on the right would seriously cut down on the vertical space the arrangement shares with the midi editor, and I'm assuming they're splitting the screen in two for example.
Giving people a choice is all fine and dandy(George Carlin would say it's a miracle).
The default has to be the most intuitive and easy to use for the beginning user. The experience user will change many things about Reaper, so this can be one of them if they choose that.
I presume left to be easy, because the TCP is on the left, we read and count from left to right as well as top to bottom, and in all the applications I've used so far, I've never really felt that track lists were better kept on the right, but rather things I work with a lot. If that's the case for the midi editor track list, then I might change my choice down the line.
Might be good to get more data on where the default needs to be if there is a choice.
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01-26-2013, 10:14 AM
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#119
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dayton, Ohio USA
Posts: 1,714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod
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Reaching across? You using a big touch screen, Tod?
With the rec arm, mute, solo, folder structure, and who knows what other features might get added to the "selector" in the future, this sure feels more like a track CONTROL panel to me. Which is why I think it would feel more natural on the left side. Especially if we can narrow the piano keys.
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01-26-2013, 10:20 AM
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#120
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dayton, Ohio USA
Posts: 1,714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
The question is why did they think it was a good idea.
Here's practical reason why the left side is well suited to display a track list.
When the midi editor is run in sync with the arrangement and the editor thus shows the places in time at the same horizontal position as the arrangement does, placing the track list or whatever else is in there on the right would seriously cut down on the vertical space the arrangement shares with the midi editor, and I'm assuming they're splitting the screen in two for example.
Giving people a choice is all fine and dandy(George Carlin would say it's a miracle).
The default has to be the most intuitive and easy to use for the beginning user. The experience user will change many things about Reaper, so this can be one of them if they choose that.
I presume left to be easy, because the TCP is on the left, we read and count from left to right as well as top to bottom, and in all the applications I've used so far, I've never really felt that track lists were better kept on the right, but rather things I work with a lot. If that's the case for the midi editor track list, then I might change my choice down the line.
Might be good to get more data on where the default needs to be if there is a choice.
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Agreed
However, I just saw why it might be better on the right. If you intend to toggle the list on/off, and it's on the right, the shifting of the piano roll might get a little distracting. With it on the right, when the list is toggled on/off the piano roll just extends/contracts from the right side, which seems natural.
So what do you know - there's pros/cons of both sides.
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