Reaper and touchscreen

[gembez]

Hi everyone,

I’m thinking of buying a pair of Dell 2418HT touchscreen monitors to use with Reaper on Windows 10. My main use for them will be controlling plugins, say Jupiter 8, Diva, or the knob/sliders on a compressor. Being able to use it for making adjustments on the mixer would be good too, but not necessary. Also, I won’t be using it for editing, since I’m comfortable doing that with the mouse and keyboard, but I’m missing the tactile feedback one would get from a real synth or a console.

I’ve read conflicting report on the web regarding Reaper’s compatibility and features (multi-touch?). Is anyone using touch screens with Reaper here? Do you think it will be a good fit for what I’m looking for?

Thanks!

[foxAsteria]

Reaper doesn't really support multitouch. Meaning you can't move more than one control at a time. A better option would be OSC if you want touch control from a phone or tablet (a bit complicated to set up, but supremely flexible), or a MIDI controller.

Many actions control parameters of the selected track, so that's your best bet. Easy to set up and MIDI controllers can be quite affordable.

Direct touch is also dangerous (potentially) because dragging tracks around can change their routing (folders).

[gembez]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

Reaper doesn't really support multitouch. Meaning you can't move more than one control at a time. A better option would be OSC if you want touch control from a phone or tablet (a bit complicated to set up, but supremely flexible), or a MIDI controller.

Many actions control parameters of the selected track, so that's your best bet. Easy to set up and MIDI controllers can be quite affordable.

Direct touch is also dangerous (potentially) because dragging tracks around can change their routing (folders).

What about controlling synths and effects? I have a three display setup; The main one is TCP and the timeline, the other two the mixer and the plugins. So only the mixer and the plugins will be touchscreen.

For some reason I’m expecting that if I get a touchscreen monitor, I should be able to simply use a finger to, say, adjust a cut off filter on a synth. Am I mistaken? Is it more complicated than that?

[foxAsteria]

Yes you can do that. But like I said, only one at a time.

[gembez]

I guess dual touch would be almost ideal (i.e adjusting cutoff with one finger and resonance with another), but most of the time I adjust one knob at a time when building synth patches. So I think it would still be an improvement over using a mouse. Will give it a try, thanks!

[foxAsteria]

Just consider this first: we can create default controller mappings for plugins based on focus or visibility of the plugin as well as track selection. That means you can have a MIDI controller with real, tactile knobs controlling whatever plugin is onscreen or on a selected track etc. It's great.

You can do your touchscreen thing too, but that always requires you to look at the screen, whereas you can have a couple knobs on your controller that always controls cutoff and resonance for the focused synth, which you don't ever have to look at (only feel). IMO it's far superior.

I also use touch screens for control through OSC because that allows as many simultaneous fingers as you possess and the device can handle.

Anyways, good luck, have fun and do whatever you want.

[jm duchenne]

Originally Posted by gembez

For some reason I’m expecting that if I get a touchscreen monitor, I should be able to simply use a finger to, say, adjust a cut off filter on a synth. Am I mistaken? Is it more complicated than that?

Yes, it works very well for plugins that support multitouch.
It is the case for most of those that are made with Juce, and even if their UI is not optimized for it, it can be interesting with a large screen.
But for Reaper itself it will be only one finger at a time, and some graphic elements are very difficult to grab :-(

[_Stevie_]

Yeah, I really wish the devs would include multi touch for touch screens.

[White Tie]

Reaper's multitouch support is for gestures / two finger stuff.

Originally Posted by gembez

I’m thinking of buying a pair of Dell 2418HT touchscreen monitors

Can I just check that you've tried using touchscreens for this kind of thing and liked it? If you haven't, I'd strongly recommend you try it first; I know a few people who invested heavily in the whole multitouch thing who now just use them as monitors, and I've worked on a number of touch screen UI projects that were abandoned. Sadly, for many people, my guess would perhaps even be most people, there's a vast gap between the idea of what we think working on a touchscreen will be like and the reality. Its clumsy, inaccurate, your finger is in the way, accidental touches are an annoyance and your arm gets tired in a way that you don't expect when you're used to doing it with your thumb. And the notion of having multiple fingers over multiple faders like you do on a console, and doing meaningful input, its just not the same. Its very, very far from being the same.

Using a dedicated touch controller on a smaller thing like a tablet or phone can be pretty awesome.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by White Tie

Can I just check that you've tried using touchscreens for this kind of thing and liked it?

Where can I watch videos with it?

[_Stevie_]

Especially when you are using LBX Stripper, which can basically be a complete control surface for Reaper, there are huge benefits, because LBX Stripper can directly access all the bits of Reaper without going thru the hassle of mapping commands over MIDI.

[Hafer]

Originally Posted by White Tie

There's a vast gap between the idea of what we think working on a touchscreen will be like and the reality. Its clumsy, inaccurate, your finger is in the way, accidental touches are an annoyance and your arm gets tired in a way that you don't expect when you're used to doing it with your thumb.

Each of it I can confirm from bloody experience. In addition, there's a physical distance of about 8mm between fingertip and graphic display, which severely hampers aiming at small objects, but maybe that's only me.

As @WT already suggested, you really, really should try it first.

[gembez]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

Just consider this first: we can create default controller mappings for plugins based on focus or visibility of the plugin as well as track selection. That means you can have a MIDI controller with real, tactile knobs controlling whatever plugin is onscreen or on a selected track etc. It's great.

You can do your touchscreen thing too, but that always requires you to look at the screen, whereas you can have a couple knobs on your controller that always controls cutoff and resonance for the focused synth, which you don't ever have to look at (only feel). IMO it's far superior.

I also use touch screens for control through OSC because that allows as many simultaneous fingers as you possess and the device can handle.

Anyways, good luck, have fun and do whatever you want.

I actually find your description of touchscreen workflow more exiting than the MIDI controller workflow. I'm planning on placing the two touchscreen monitors just above my MIDI controller (Studio Logic SL-990 Pro which has no knobs whatsoever), so it would end up looking like the old Korg M3. Now if I pull up the Jupiter 8 plugin on one screen and the mixer on the other screen, it will 'look like' that I them on top of my keyboard (my main screen is a 55" TV). I'd rather see and interact with the actual GUI of the plugin or Reaper, rather than trying to deal with assignable knobs that would change depending on what's on the screen.

Originally Posted by White Tie

Reaper's multitouch support is for gestures / two finger stuff.


Can I just check that you've tried using touchscreens for this kind of thing and liked it? If you haven't, I'd strongly recommend you try it first; I know a few people who invested heavily in the whole multitouch thing who now just use them as monitors, and I've worked on a number of touch screen UI projects that were abandoned. Sadly, for many people, my guess would perhaps even be most people, there's a vast gap between the idea of what we think working on a touchscreen will be like and the reality. Its clumsy, inaccurate, your finger is in the way, accidental touches are an annoyance and your arm gets tired in a way that you don't expect when you're used to doing it with your thumb. And the notion of having multiple fingers over multiple faders like you do on a console, and doing meaningful input, its just not the same. Its very, very far from being the same.

Using a dedicated touch controller on a smaller thing like a tablet or phone can be pretty awesome.

Right now I use an old iPad 4 running 'remote mouse'. It turns the screen of the iPad into a trackpad and I'm relatively happy with how it works. The things I don't like is that it actually moves the mouse cursor to do the controlling, so I can't adjust a knob with one finger and do something else with the mouse at the same time (is it goona be the same with the touchscreen?). Another thing is I have to touch a trackpad rather than touching the knobs I see on the screen. I seem to be interested in an approach similar to the way you would adjust the knobs on an iPad app synth. Don't like any middlemen. I also think that technology will catch up to me eventually and I should be able to do multitouch, just like an iPad synth app.

Originally Posted by Hafer

Each of it I can confirm from bloody experience. In addition, there's a physical distance of about 8mm between fingertip and graphic display, which severely hampers aiming at small objects, but maybe that's only me.

As @WT already suggested, you really, really should try it first.

The plugins I want to touch control have resizable GUIs so I can make them big enough to fill up the 24" screen, I may also go with a pair of 27"s instead. But from all the posts it seems what I want is actually possible, but the UX is not good for some reason. Of course, not having multitouch is pretty bad, but I think it would beat my current workflow, which is using a mouse. I'll see what the return policy is on the monitors and will give it try in the coming weeks. I'll report back if I have something interesting to share. Thanks everyone!

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by _Stevie_

Especially when you are using LBX Stripper,

So you can actually do multi-touch through Stripper?

@OP, just make sure your touch screens are mostly horizontal (ideally in your lap or a table surface) or they will be very uncomfortable to work with. https://www.techopedia.com/definition/31480/gorilla-arm

[_Stevie_]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

So you can actually do multi-touch through Stripper?

No, I wish! Scripts can’t be multi touch aware, just like Reaper :/

[mks]

How is everyone dealing with the fact the showstopping fact that Windows imposes a "deadzone" before a click-drag or even click even is passed to the Program?

This makes touch or even pen input completely unuseable across the board. Not only can we not make small adjustments at all, but we can't even use touch automation

Is there some workaround I'm not aware of?

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by mks

Is there some workaround I'm not aware of?

A mouse. Nobody's really using touch because it isn't fully implemented.

Even if your screen supports multi-touch, Reaper only does for gestures. Otherwise, one finger on the screen is hardly as fast as both hands on mouse and keyboard.

I use a Steam Controller or a tablet/phone via OSC if I need to be physically far from my workstation.

Also, never had the issue you describe when I've used touch screen for live adjustments (saw your thread). The far bigger showstopper IMO is how easy it is to drag tracks into folders of other tracks...

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by White Tie

I just check that you've tried using touchscreens for this kind of thing and liked it? If you haven't, I'd strongly recommend you try it first; I know a few people who invested heavily in the whole multitouch thing who now just use them as monitors, and I've worked on a number of touch screen UI projects that were abandoned. Sadly, for many people, my guess would perhaps even be most people, there's a vast gap between the idea of what we think working on a touchscreen will be like and the reality. Its clumsy, inaccurate, your finger is in the way, accidental touches are an annoyance and your arm gets tired in a way that you don't expect when you're used to doing it with your thumb. And the notion of having multiple fingers over multiple faders like you do on a console, and doing meaningful input, its just not the same. Its very, very far from being the same.

Using a dedicated touch controller on a smaller thing like a tablet or phone can be pretty awesome.

This is all so true. And believe me. I try every input device I can get hands on. There's just rarely a need for it.

For example. I use a Magic Track Pad 2. My fingers are on a small piece of glass. It feels just like a monitor and what I see on the screen is represented by what I touch. Why would I need to have my fingers up on a screen when they could be comfortably on my desk?

Obviously, multi-touch is better for mixing but a nice controller is more useful in my opinion.

[mks]

Ha. Yes, a mouse...I think I've heard of it. Though, I prefer to enter commands via punch cards

Yes, all good points. Touching a screen is definitely a different thing that isn't the same as touching discrete hardware inputs. Extremely disappointing if expecting to edit, etc with mouse driven UI. That said, I've been loving my touch screen in place of where my large expensive Avid controller setup used to be, but that's my preference for mixing specifically. Feels great and fast in combination with the rest of my setup.

Anyhow, just switched to windows hence my new problem at the OS level. I think I've just found a solution that gets around the global "deadzone" problem at least for touch input. I'll run it through my next mix project this week to make sure it's problem free before posting about it. Hopefully that'll help others that like mixing/plugin-adjusting/automating/etc. with a touchscreen.

Take care all

[wunstel]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

Just consider this first: we can create default controller mappings for plugins based on focus or visibility of the plugin as well as track selection. That means you can have a MIDI controller with real, tactile knobs controlling whatever plugin is onscreen or on a selected track etc. It's great.

A "default" controller mapping is the answer to a problem I'm trying to solve. Please see my new post here. Thanks. https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=2481066

[poetnprophet]

I have to admit, I've been wanting a touchscreen setup for a long time, but I have been talked out of it several times from this forum.

and other than commercials, every single time I see some video of someone with a Raven setup, they are using the mouse....every single time. But to me, I'd want the surface to be flatter rather than the angle it is for the Ravens, which would help a lot on the wrist fatigue. But implementation is just not there....bummer.

[Old School Audio Guy]

HI
On another note for all of us who are eucon users how about and menu
and dedicated, assignable master only control so I can fade out manualy?

[yikelu]

I've been checking back in this thread periodically hoping for TUIO support in REAPER. I also have a lot of information to offer about touch screen control for music production and mixing. I hope people here find it useful and clarifies a potential path to get fuller touch support going.

I'm on a Mac and have been using a 24 inch Planar multi-touch screen for about a year now. The screen is 1080p and I enjoy using the touch functionality both for REAPER and for everyday use. My setup is two monitors -- I have a 32 inch 4K screen then the Planar below it at an angle.

I switch between mouse and touch when operating REAPER. It depends on what I'm going for. If I need fine precision, I'll use a mouse. But if I'm getting an initial fader/pan balance, sculpting sounds with plugins, or operating transport while recording myself, I tend to use the touch screen more. Of course, without multi-touch fader support, I'm only setting those faders one at a time.

24 inches is the low end of what I would use, size-wise at 1080p. Many plugins are too small to operate optimally with a finger at that size.

I have some details on RAVEN and how the multi-touch faders are implemented. I gleaned this all from their documentation they have online and matched it up to my own experience with my monitor. It's quite interesting.

Unless the DAW supports TUIO, RAVEN essentially uses a hack to implement multi-touch faders. Slate has an app that overlays your mixer window and acts as your faders. Their app implements the MCU protocol (I believe, haven't checked the docs in a while) to control the DAW and the app itself is what has the multi-touch capability with its faders. This is why you have to actually bank your mixer rather than scrolling.

The implication for REAPER is that unfortunately, I don't see Slate supporting multi-touch faders for it as (a) REAPER has themes and a resizable mixer, making a universal overlay impossible (b) REAPER has incomplete MCU support (as I understand) (c) not as much demand.

If Cockos wants to do something for multi-touch faders, the most natural route seems to be implementing TUIO support. This is what Studio One does. I actually tried Studio One for this reason, and could not get along with it well enough to switch over.

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

But to me, I'd want the surface to be flatter rather than the angle it is for the Ravens, which would help a lot on the wrist fatigue

On this point, most touch screens are angle adjustable. Mine comes with an articulating stand, Ravens come with an adjustable kick stand.

[foxAsteria]

I think the ubiquity of smartphones says a lot about what touchscreens are best for. Big ones are probably never going to fully catch on, but something you can hold and thumb around on is useful in so many situations.

OSC is still the only way to get full multi-touch in Reaper. It's extra work, but IMO much more efficient than trying to muck with the whole Reaper interface on a bigger surface.

[Aikido123]

I don't think asking for multi touch support for scrolling and zooming in the Midi editor and Score editor is asking too much.
I mean the retro 1990's UI is great and everything and I know we don't want to mess with that, but there are some new things out there that can actually be beneficial to creating music.

[Dragonetti]

Has prevailed for me to trim the start and end point with touchscreen or mouse.
https://youtu.be/DmkhvpCysZ8

[yikelu]

Originally Posted by Aikido123

I don't think asking for multi touch support for scrolling and zooming in the Midi editor and Score editor is asking too much.
I mean the retro 1990's UI is great and everything and I know we don't want to mess with that, but there are some new things out there that can actually be beneficial to creating music.

Pretty sure this is already possible as gestures are supported. I haven't tried this in particular, but I've done scroll and zoom in track view and scroll in mixer for example.

[TobyAM]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

A mouse. Nobody's really using touch because it isn't fully implemented.

Nobody here, I use 4 touchscreens in a sort of cockpit arrangement using monitor arms. It's great, carpel tunnel is gone and it's fun. You adjust to the changes gradually, but for some finer buttons you still need a mouse.

And mixing is limited to one fader or groups. Yeah, you can still touch and all that jazz, you just have to learn the oddities, like moving your finger quickly to the side once you touch will touch the fader.

If Justin et al would add multitouch mixer support I'd buy 10 more licenses and a beer.

Two fingers is enough to be honest, then I'm set.

If you give multitouch mixer capability I'll probably have to get some more touchscreens to be honest. Then if you add the ability for multiple mixer windows I may develop a screen hoarding problem. the dream...

[foxAsteria]

I stopped holding my breath when the new version of TouchOSC came out early this year. Let's just say all of my old phones suddenly found new life.

But IMO OSC is probably better than native multitouch will ever be, since you can easily design your dream interface across one or many pages and it's designed for quirk-free touch control.

[TobyAM]

Yeah TouchOSC is great; I use it for other things.

I don't think it can beat Reaper's channel strip layout and integration, having the appropriate fade snap into view when selected elsewhere, having all your relevant IO and FX controls in-line, etc. Adding OSC to that to compensate is just clunky, IMHO.

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by TobyAM

Yeah TouchOSC is great; I use it for other things.

I don't think it can beat Reaper's channel strip layout and integration, having the appropriate fade snap into view when selected elsewhere, having all your relevant IO and FX controls in-line, etc. Adding OSC to that to compensate is just clunky, IMHO.

Clunky? Having a customized interface always showing you only the info and controls you need, updating on the fly, no matter what else is going on is what...too cumbersome? Hmmokay.

[drX]

Hi,

You might find this plugin useful for touch-screens.

It's a resizable multi-touch MIDI keyboard (including pitch and mod wheels as well as the soft, sostenuto and sustain pedals)
https://4drx.com/plugins/virtualkeyboard

Here's a demo using a Surface Pro 8: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw_5vhGRa4k