05-05-2023, 06:12 AM | #1 |
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Weirdness using Izotope Stratus/Symphony 3D in Reaper?
I used to be able to manually set Stratus and Symphony 3D to a 7.1.4 configuration when used on a 12 channel track. But as of a few months ago, these plugins only give me the option to select 7.0.6 when set to 12 channels. And previous projects that had been configured for 7.1.4 now load as 7.0.6.
I'm not entirely sure if this is due to a change in Reaper's VST3 approach in recent builds, or if this happened when I updated to Stratus/Symphony3D 3.1.0. Can any Stratus/Symphony users confirm this issue? |
05-05-2023, 12:01 PM | #2 |
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I'll check this evening. Luckily enough I made a list of all support channel arrangements a few versions of Reaper ago. I made the list by changing the VST bus size, and noting what configurations were available from mono up to 22.2. (My plan was to make Ambisonic (en-/de-)coders for all of the supported formats so I could use Stratus and Symphony, or others, in Ambisonic mixes--didn't finish that project yet, but I have the list.)
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05-05-2023, 02:30 PM | #3 |
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OK, so I've checked. The user guide lists:
But also when I made my list a couple months ago, using Reaper 6.76, I didn't include 7.1.4, I do have 7.1.6 for 14 channels. I see in the 6.76 release notes, "VST3: support 7.1.4, 9.1.4, and 9.1.6 speaker layouts (for FabFilter etc)", so I wonder... I'll grab version 6.75 and do a portable install of it, and see if it has a 7.1.4 mode for Symphony 3D. (It takes a while to scan all my plug-ins with a fresh install, so stay tuned.) |
05-05-2023, 02:51 PM | #4 |
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Your hunch was right. All the channels configurations are available in 6.75.
And gone in 6.76. Last edited by ScuzzyEye; 05-05-2023 at 02:54 PM. Reason: Tested in 6.76 also. |
05-06-2023, 06:29 PM | #5 | |
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I'm seeing the same thing here with Symphony 3D. Bringing up the info screen, the I/O shows 12->13, so somehow it thinks there are 13 output channels. Mine shows 3.1 release, Sept 1, 2022.
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05-06-2023, 06:41 PM | #6 | |
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Where are you getting the download for older versions? I bought Symphony 3D through Plugin Boutique and they only show the current version for download.
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05-06-2023, 08:03 PM | #7 | |
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Versions 6.75 and before work correctly with the current versions of Exponential's 3D reverbs. I also posted a bug report for Reaper here: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=278962 Hard to say who's right in this, I do know that VST3 channel stuff is really messy, and making one plug-in happy can easily mess up another. |
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05-07-2023, 04:12 AM | #8 | |
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Thanks! I should have been reading the thread more carefully. I have reverted back to v6.75 for the time being. Hopefully this bug will be fixed soon.
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05-07-2023, 09:49 AM | #9 |
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In the conversation with schwa about my bug report here, I'm pretty sure Reaper isn't doing anything incorrectly. So I have filed a bug report with iZotope. I'm wishing us all luck.
(It's also be nice if they added a 7.1.2 mode as an Atmos bed with height, but I'm not pushing my luck. I'll sum the front and rear of the .4 if they get that working again.) |
05-07-2023, 11:03 AM | #10 | |
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Problem is that there may not be a lot of development happening at Exponential Audio. Since Izotope bought Exponential development seems to have slowed. But maybe this will be a high enough priority for it to get fixed.
While Reaper may theoretically not be doing anything incorrectly, something changed in how Symphony 3D reacts to it, and the change was in Reaper. As someone here said, it might be that fixing one plugin broke another. App development in the past has examples where adhering to the specs broke plugins. A few years back Avid released a new version of Pro Tools that broke a large number of AAX plugins, despite that they claimed they were simply adhering to the AAX spec a bit more closely. Quote:
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05-07-2023, 01:46 PM | #11 |
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That's my worry too. Seems like all development at iZotope has slowed in the last couple years. They brought out that one Neoverb after acquiring Exponential, and it doesn't support multi-channel. Then they dropped all the Exponential line except the two 3D reverbs (granted they were updated to load all the other model's patches minus Excalibur).
Maybe some non-intrusive change can be made on the Reaper side. I know the Reaper devs aren't fans of plug-in specific work-arounds. But maybe some compatibility option can be added to not report some (or maybe all) speaker arrangements and rely only on channel counts. |
05-08-2023, 10:43 AM | #12 |
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Thanks for your confirmation, detective work, and proactive bug reports, ScuzzyEye. I'm doing the same with Izotope Customer Support and will direct them to these threads.
There also are so many minor things that could make Stratus/Symphony -- great sounding verbs -- easier to use (e.g. being able to set SMPTE/ITU channel order defaults. I always have re-pin the plugin for SMPTE order via Reaper.) I wish the developers put more attention to these things... |
05-08-2023, 11:32 AM | #13 |
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Agreed. I've been using them transcoding to/from Ambisonics/22.2, and they are the most realistic/creative 3D reverbs I have. Some of the "ping-pong" type delays in Stratus are incredible. I was planning on using them in the channel mode closest to the Atmos bed format, so bug really got my attention.
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05-09-2023, 06:29 PM | #14 |
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Did you get a response to your bug report with iZotope? I've gotten two, first was the usual, "uninstall and reinstall", I humored them, and actually found that the version on my Mac was out of date (both my Windows machines were good though), but of course that didn't change anything with the one particular channel mode, and I informed them of that. Got a follow up today, with them saying that, yes, they had confirmed it is a bug, and will be fixed, but not likely to be soon. They actually gave me a Reaper project file that had two Stratus3D instances on different sends. One configured for 7.1 and the other Quad. The idea being to route the height channels to the Quad and the lower channels to the 7.1. Interesting, but won't have the same effect as a single reverb operating in 7.1.4, because there is cross-talk between all the channels of the reverb, and that won't happen between the individual sends.
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05-09-2023, 07:28 PM | #15 | |
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Does 7.1.2 (10 channels) work? If so, that might be a satisfactory workaround since it corresponds to the bed channels. I'm working in 6.75 right now so it is working, and today I'm too busy / lazy to reinstall a newer version to check what happens with 10 channels, but it might be worth a try.
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05-09-2023, 07:29 PM | #16 | |
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I forgot to thank you for following up on this. Thanks!
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05-09-2023, 08:51 PM | #17 | |
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So, there's no longer a 7.1.4 mode, which I was going to mix into 7.1.2 by summing the heights, but amazingly, the mode I've been skipping 9.1 is actually 7.1.2. I'm glad I looked at this one more time. Doesn't solve the OP's problem, but solves mine? 🤷 |
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05-10-2023, 12:57 AM | #18 | |
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Very interesting. I have a 7.1.4 monitoring setup here, and so I've been mixing in that format. Using the Fiedler Beam panner, it defaults to putting 7.1 in the bed, ignores channels 9-10, and uses the first four object channels (11-14) for the height channels. But if I set up a 10 channel reverb I would be using the full 7.1.2 bed for reverb.
I'm still fairly new at Atmos and still developing my workflow. Using 10 channels might be a compromise and workable solution for me as well. I really hate not being able to use the most recent versions of Reaper, and I do want to be able to use this reverb. Quote:
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05-10-2023, 06:12 AM | #19 |
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Yes, with the same exact responses as you did. The two-instance option feels like a pretty impractical workaround IMO.
For now, I'm upping the track bus size to 14 channels to use the 7.1.6 layout in Stratus, then ignoring the middle two ceiling channels. (Though when using Stratus in an ambisonic context, it occurs to me I could instead just map all 7.1.6 channel positions and encode into HOA.) |
05-10-2023, 06:24 AM | #20 |
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For completeness, as discussed in this other thread on the subject, the underlying issue appears to be that these plugins interpret 7.1.4 as a 13-channel layout.
Prior to version 6.76, REAPER would not query the plugin about 7.1.4 specifically. The channel setup negotiation between the host and the plugin appears to go like this: REAPER 6.75: REAPER: do you support 11.1 speaker layout? Plugin: yes, I do. REAPER: ok, let's agree to that layout. Plugin: ok, that layout has 12 speakers, so the user can choose a 12 speaker layout from a list that includes 7.1.4, etc. REAPER 6.76: REAPER: do you support 7.1.4 speaker layout? Plugin: yes, I do. REAPER: ok, let's agree to that layout. Plugin: ok, that layout has 13 speakers, so the user can choose a 13 speaker layout from a list that includes 7.0.6, etc. The list does not include 7.1.4. |
05-10-2023, 06:51 AM | #21 |
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Thanks, Schwa! Seems like Izotope recognizes the problem is on their end--here's hoping it doesn't take too long for them to issue an update.
(And I'm appreciative, as always, of your willingness to engage with users at this level of detail. Would that other developers could be as responsive!) Last edited by BPBaker; 05-10-2023 at 07:35 AM. |
05-10-2023, 08:12 AM | #22 | |
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Thank you for the clarification. Pity they don't have it right on their end.
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05-10-2023, 08:41 AM | #23 | |
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05-10-2023, 10:45 AM | #24 | |
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I just had another email exchange with Izotope Support, who offered this from a surround guide put together by the original Exponential developer.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/anxcrs9yyj...83%29.pdf?dl=0 On page 57 RE configuring in Reaper, it says: Quote:
I've also suggested that they allow for different SMPTE/ITU channel orders as a preference in the plugin itself, as other plugins (including some from Izotope) do. Last edited by BPBaker; 05-10-2023 at 11:16 AM. |
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05-10-2023, 10:49 AM | #25 |
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On a related note, I'm also frustrated to discover Izotope's Neutron 4 doesn't work in surround in Reaper at all, despite working in up to 7.1 on other DAWS. When I asked Izotope Support about that, they only said it "wasn't officially supported" without offering any further detail.
I'm wondering if that, too, is based on an outdated understanding of Reaper's VST3 capability? |
05-10-2023, 10:52 AM | #26 |
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The first paragraph there is fair, basically. REAPER does not know or care about the difference between an 11.1 track and a 7.1.4 track, all REAPER knows is that the track has 12 channels and the user can assign whatever meaning they want to each channel. So if REAPER negotiates a 12-channel format with the plugin, it's good behavior for the plugin to then offer a choice of exactly which 12-channel layout is preferred.
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05-10-2023, 11:00 AM | #27 |
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Yeah this is unfortunately probably not going to be fixed by Izotope. For whatever reason they've given up on developing the Exponential reverbs after using them for Dialogue Match (works sort of okay) and Neoverb (terrible).
The reverbs sound great but they quickly become less useful as issues like this pile up. Seems like a waste. |
05-10-2023, 11:14 AM | #28 |
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Ah, okay, thanks for clarifying - when you mentioned that REAPER now "queries" the plugin to negotiate the format, I misunderstood that as meaning REAPER offered the plugin something more specific than stereo pairs (i.e. a "true" multichannel bus, whatever that might mean). Having the plugin give a list with multiple formats for the appropriate channel count is what makes the most sense to me (so long as their list actually includes the correct layouts)!
While we're on this subject, any thoughts as to why Neutron 4 wouldn't show up as a multichannel plugin in Reaper when using VST3/8 channels? |
05-10-2023, 01:16 PM | #29 |
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And to be clear about Reaper's capabilities wrt channel counts. While it's true that tracks can only have even numbers of channels, with VST3 plug-ins, the VST3 bus size can be any number even or odd. The Exponential Audio reverbs recognize this too. If you set a track to 8 channels, and a VST bus size of 7, you get the 7-channel modes like 7.0 and 6.1. (You can also set the track to 14 channels, and the bus to 13, and see the 7.0.6 just like you do when it misinterprets 7.1.4 as being 13 channels wide.)
That's why I was asking in the bug report thread, if it is possible (i.e. valid as a VST3 host) to implement a plug-in compatibility flag where Reaper doesn't attempt to negotiate any speaker arrangements, and simply tells the the plug-in the bus size. I can't recall off the top of my head when it was, but I'm pretty sure I've seen some other plug-in make odd assumptions about the what that channels are going to be used for. Probably because they accepted one speaker arrangement, and didn't present any alternatives to the user. (I also wonder if that would change the behavior of Neutron 4.) |
05-15-2023, 08:37 AM | #30 | |
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This is how Izotope responded when I asked about Nuetron 4 not being supported for surround in REAPER:
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It seems like it shouldn't be an "either/or" with sidechain and surround. (Other plugins can handle both...) Perhaps users might need to be more conscious about how to pin out the sidechain under certain circumstances, but that seems like par for the course when working with surround/spatial plugins. Perhaps this seems too complicated and their design philosophy prioritizes non-advanced users, but I wish they gave us an advanced option to manually configure the channel format for whatever the plugin can support, like Stratus. |
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11-09-2023, 11:06 AM | #31 |
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just noticed the same thing about not beeing able to get 7.1.4 in stratus...
anyworkaround ? appart from irgnoring 2 overhead channels? as for odd numbers for the vst bus in reaper, i see odd numbers up to 10 and then it continues with always bigger jumps (12, 14, 16, 20 etc..) so i what izotope is saying is not partly true. |
11-12-2023, 05:28 PM | #32 |
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Sadly not addressed in Izotope Latest Update: : 3.2.0
Released: : September 20, 2023 https://www.izotope.com/en/products/downloads.html Workarounds for now (and maybe till the sun runs out of hydrogen): 1) choose VST3 bus size 14 (7.1.6) and re-pin plug outputs 13/14 to Track Channel 11/12 2) host in 12ch Plogue Bidule VST plugin with Stratus/Symphony instantiated as 12 in / 12 out. 7.1.4 is select-able then so I guess Bidule queries the plugin for 11.1 as per Schwa's not on methods past & present. |
11-14-2023, 01:18 PM | #33 |
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What a bummer, Izotope. Really, all they need to do is create an extra option to manually set the channel count. It could be hidden in the settings where it wouldn't bother anyone.
If only other audio developers were as thoughtful about flexibility as Reaper's devs... |
11-14-2023, 03:58 PM | #34 |
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I've pretty much stopped reaching for Stratus and Symphony for Atmos beds at this point. I have a lot of other choices now that all work correctly.
All of these, when put on a 10-channel track in Reaper, automatically go into 7.1.2 mode: Acon Digital Verberate Immersive, Eventide Blackhole Immersive, FLUX:: IRCAM Tools - Verb, FabFilter Pro-R2. Fiedler Audio Spacelab Interstellar does default to stereo, but it's just a few clicks to change it to 7.1.2. |
11-29-2023, 01:44 PM | #35 |
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This is indeed a bummer. Thanks for the heads up, everyone!
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12-02-2023, 07:59 AM | #36 |
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I don't think there have been any serious updates for the Michael Carnes iZotope/Exponential Audio reverbs since 2019 has there?
Maybe some maintenance for those 3D reverbs Op System compatibility? Mr Carnes retired in 2020. Perhaps he carried out all the proper work on those plugins and iZotope had already decided to not bother investing in further development or support when they sold off the stereo reverbs for next to nothing through Plugin Boutique? I think they still have the comedy high original prices on iZotope website though. For iZotope the surround reverbs have significantly less affordable competition so perhaps iZotope (and the investment company that bought them, Native Instruments and Plugin Alliance) enjoyed recuperating some of their Exp.Audio investment with those? I don't suppose Neoverb is going to be made into a "3d" version either, unless they get into peddling video editing suites. |
03-01-2024, 05:38 AM | #37 |
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In the plugin's routing, you can select any VST bus size you want in order to get the plugin's channels to work correctly. This has solved any problem I had with these kinds of plugins.
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03-01-2024, 09:25 AM | #38 |
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That usually does solve it, but not so with these Exponential Audio reverbs. There are some channel configurations that the reverbs supposedly support that no bus size setting in Reaper will trigger.
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