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Old 06-23-2020, 04:07 PM   #1
Dork Lard
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Default How do pro studios know their mix is ready ?

How do those studios who produce mainstream CDs know when the song is done ? For one they obviously have a few ppl listening, not just one guy like us. But I mean there comes that point when they take the decision and say: "it is now ready" and upload it somewhere to be made into sellable music. How can they be sure that kick at 2:33 in couldn't have used a tad more compression... and so on for tiny details ? I'm saying it feels like it's such a subjective work that requires an objective decision. Like, does it actually occur that a major mixer/producer would grimace when a certain part comes on, the way we do (we all have that one weak-ish part production wise in a song).

They MUST have some sort of device or software plugin that can help analyze how scientifically sound the song is, and make automatic changes. I can't remember the last time I heard half an error in commercial music (not that I listen that closely...).
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Old 06-23-2020, 04:09 PM   #2
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How do those studios who produce mainstream CDs know when the song is done ?
When they run out of money.
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Old 06-23-2020, 04:12 PM   #3
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They MUST have some sort of device or software plugin that can help analyze how scientifically sound the song is, and make automatic changes. I can't remember the last time I heard half an error in commercial music (not that I listen that closely...).
There is a device that does this...it's called a "human brain," and it's the most sophisticated processor that exists on Earth.

When it stops feeling like a mix and starts feeling like a song, that's your cue to put it to bed and move on.

The ability to perceive that comes with experience. Plus, sometimes there are artificial time constraints. People used to mix a song from start to finish in a single day on analog consoles because there wasn't total recall, so recreating the mix the next day took several hours and it was never exactly the same as before.

Now we can open a project five years later and pick up right where we left off. That can be a blessing and a curse sometimes.
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Old 06-23-2020, 04:23 PM   #4
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They MUST have some sort of device or software plugin that can help analyze how scientifically sound the song is, and make automatic changes. I can't remember the last time I heard half an error in commercial music (not that I listen that closely...).
There isn't, the more they know what they are doing and the more experience they have, the less listening to every microsecond of every track they need to do. There isn't an easy way out of this, it's hard work, it requires dedication and a lot of failure before getting it right. A plugin isn't going to do it, a DAW isn't, a million mixing 'tricks' isn't, nothing but putting in the hard work and study is going to get you what you keep asking for.
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Old 06-23-2020, 04:54 PM   #5
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So yeah. What we all said in your last thread.
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Old 06-23-2020, 05:55 PM   #6
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How do those studios who produce mainstream CDs know when the song is done ? For one they obviously have a few ppl listening, not just one guy like us. But I mean there comes that point when they take the decision and say: "it is now ready" and upload it somewhere to be made into sellable music. How can they be sure that kick at 2:33 in couldn't have used a tad more compression... and so on for tiny details ? I'm saying it feels like it's such a subjective work that requires an objective decision. Like, does it actually occur that a major mixer/producer would grimace when a certain part comes on, the way we do (we all have that one weak-ish part production wise in a song).

They MUST have some sort of device or software plugin that can help analyze how scientifically sound the song is, and make automatic changes. I can't remember the last time I heard half an error in commercial music (not that I listen that closely...).
You would think so but no. There is no right or wrong. Someone just decides and that's it.
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Old 06-24-2020, 04:02 AM   #7
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There isn't, the more they know what they are doing and the more experience they have, the less listening to every microsecond of every track they need to do. There isn't an easy way out of this, it's hard work, it requires dedication and a lot of failure before getting it right. A plugin isn't going to do it, a DAW isn't, a million mixing 'tricks' isn't, nothing but putting in the hard work and study is going to get you what you keep asking for.
This is all fine the way it applies to me, you, everyone on this forum. But major studios that produce the likes of Rihanna, etc ? Production wise it sounds too perfect to just be all human.

Like there is software that does some of the work for you, I know with Ozone for e.g. you can feed it a reference track and have it emulate the mastering for your song. It isn't perfect. It can be quite helpful. But Ozone is just a mere plugin the regular Joe can pay a couple hundred $ and use up 1GB of hard disk to have. Those major studios with millions $ behind them can't be using the exact same products we're using in our bedrooms here on our laptops.
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Old 06-24-2020, 05:09 AM   #8
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...<snip>
Those major studios with millions $ behind them can't be using the exact same products we're using in our bedrooms here on our laptops.
Believe it or not, THEY ARE (using the exact same products...)

(except some real analog hardware versions of processors..., but not all do use them)

As karbo already said - practice, practice, practice .. learn from results, and once again ... as every other profession, you get more experienced over time if you do your work (not if you are only reading about it and actually do nothing in real). Later you will be familiar with all processing gadgets and also with their parameters, how they translate etc... You will start to feel if it's "right" - but not generally right as Kenny mentioned, because there is no right or wrong in term of art, you know.

Oh, well, and significant part of good song = composition and arrangement!!! - mixing is on top of it. Mastering only cherry on cake then.

Last edited by akademie; 06-24-2020 at 05:14 AM.
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Old 06-24-2020, 06:32 AM   #9
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This is all fine the way it applies to me, you, everyone on this forum. But major studios that produce the likes of Rihanna, etc ? Production wise it sounds too perfect to just be all human.

Like there is software that does some of the work for you, I know with Ozone for e.g. you can feed it a reference track and have it emulate the mastering for your song. It isn't perfect. It can be quite helpful. But Ozone is just a mere plugin the regular Joe can pay a couple hundred $ and use up 1GB of hard disk to have. Those major studios with millions $ behind them can't be using the exact same products we're using in our bedrooms here on our laptops.
The song that sounds perfect to you might contain audible yet insignificant edits that are heard on every listen by the person who did the editing...because they know they are there.

Is it really so hard to believe that people with decades of experience can make a good mix?

Do you think Michelangelo had some special eyeglass that he looked through to let him know when the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel was complete?
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Old 06-24-2020, 07:08 AM   #10
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Production wise it sounds too perfect to just be all human.
Wow, you sure put a lot of faith in technology.
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Old 06-24-2020, 07:11 AM   #11
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I've realized after a long time ....

.... you *can* do a good mix on cheap speakers. Even headphones.


Good monitors let you be more confident in the outcome. They fight you less.
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Old 06-24-2020, 07:13 AM   #12
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This is all fine the way it applies to me, you, everyone on this forum. But major studios that produce the likes of Rihanna, etc ? Production wise it sounds too perfect to just be all human.
I'd be careful assuming the skills of those on the forum; you might be surprised. I know of at least one person here involved with recording one of your aforementioned favorite produced bands and it doesn't stop there.
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Old 06-24-2020, 07:15 AM   #13
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I've realized after a long time ....

.... you *can* do a good mix on cheap speakers. Even headphones.


Good monitors let you be more confident in the outcome. They fight you less.
Yup, although the cheap ones cause onset of ear fatigue a lot sooner, followed directly by a pressing need to imbibe vast quantities
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Old 06-24-2020, 07:51 AM   #14
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In all levels of production there are amazing, creative people who, if it's left to them, don't know how to not get tired of something a week later and have another idea they want to swap in. There are also creative people, maybe somewhat less amazing, who can commit to what they like and move on. That ability to commit is a trait aside from audio ones, but it's important for the producer/mixer and for the artist/client. The client who keeps coming back in to change some little thing for no reason other than they've tired of it and have a fresh idea they aren't yet tired of, are a drag because nothing ever gets finished. They can't commit. It's not part of their makeup.

The ability to commit and move on is one reason producers and mixers get hired. What good is a fantastic ten song project if, as the OP says, they don't know when it's ready? The ones who know when its ready are the ones who are working and getting hired And usually it's done because they say it's done : There's no software for that
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Old 06-24-2020, 08:12 AM   #15
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You print a mix, print another one with the vocals +3dB, and then tell A&R that the files got corrupted.
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Old 06-24-2020, 08:32 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Dork Lard View Post
This is all fine the way it applies to me, you, everyone on this forum. But major studios that produce the likes of Rihanna, etc ? Production wise it sounds too perfect to just be all human.

Like there is software that does some of the work for you, I know with Ozone for e.g. you can feed it a reference track and have it emulate the mastering for your song. It isn't perfect. It can be quite helpful. But Ozone is just a mere plugin the regular Joe can pay a couple hundred $ and use up 1GB of hard disk to have. Those major studios with millions $ behind them can't be using the exact same products we're using in our bedrooms here on our laptops.
Have you asked yourself how records were made in the 70s/80s/90s before everyone had that "magic button Ozone"?
It sounds to me like you've still got A LOT of learning and practice to do..
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Old 06-24-2020, 08:56 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Dork Lard View Post
This is all fine the way it applies to me, you, everyone on this forum. But major studios that produce the likes of Rihanna, etc ? Production wise it sounds too perfect to just be all human.
While I've never worked with Rihanna, I've worked with dozens of high level productions like hers and it's no different than anything anyone else is doing.

Other than more talented people being hired for those gigs. But it's always subjective.
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Old 06-24-2020, 09:02 AM   #18
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It sounds to me like you've still got A LOT of learning and practice to do..
To be fair, I felt exactly the same way 30 years ago.

And that's a good thing. It means you're trying to figure things out. You're struggling and you just can't put your finger on it.

It just takes time and confidence and you'll get there. I think it's 100% normal to think I have a button you don't. I used to call it magic fingers because some guys I assisted for would just sit down, listen and move a few faders and it would suddenly sound like a record. I still can't explain it.

On the other side, I used to have a B team who used all of my templates for production and I couldn't believe how they could have possibly messed up what I gave them to work with.
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Old 06-24-2020, 09:02 AM   #19
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The song that sounds perfect to you might contain audible yet insignificant edits that are heard on every listen by the person who did the editing...because they know they are there.

Is it really so hard to believe that people with decades of experience can make a good mix?

Do you think Michelangelo had some special eyeglass that he looked through to let him know when the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel was complete?
Leave painting out of this, I can't comment on that. What I have had my head buried in for years now is audio and mixing however, and yes in my case it's hard to believe a virtually perfect mix, not "a good mix" as you put it but a perfect mix, is achievable consistently on a mass production scale. I'd be curious to watch what they actually do in these studios; forget the 5min filmed visits in studios; I'd like to be a fly on the wall for a day in there.

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Have you asked yourself how records were made in the 70s/80s/90s before everyone had that "magic button Ozone"?
It sounds to me like you've still got A LOT of learning and practice to do..
No. Because they sounded clearly flawed, particularly 70s and 80s, so I didn't need to ask myself that. In fact if anything that would enforce the narrative in the OP.

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Wow, you sure put a lot of faith in technology.
Not really. They make those songs in such industrial quantities, one would think technology is quite heavily involved.
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Old 06-24-2020, 09:42 AM   #20
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Those major studios with millions $ behind them can't be using the exact same products we're using in our bedrooms here on our laptops.
As in your last thread, this is an argument from incredulity fallacy blended with some argument from authority fallacy. Just because you can't believe something can be true doesn't mean it can't be. And just because "someone more pro than you" can get better results than you doesn't mean they're necessarily doing something inherently superior in a specific sense (other than using their knowledge/skills more appropriately).

There are no super-secret-squirrel devices that are only made available to "mega producers" for millions of dollars, and no, Waves isn't making magic plugins only for them either.

And think about which of these two options are more likely:

1) People making better mixes than you have secret devices/plugins, or
2) You don't know how to mix as well as they do.

(Not to make a false dichotomy argument, but as an example.)

Be honest with yourself.

I've heard some of your songs on Youtube (I followed the link from a previous post, which then let me check out your recordings by clicking on your "videos" page). It's clear you're missing some basics of how to work a mix the way you want. It's not about a certain plugin or device. I'd also be willing to bet a fair amount of the processes you do are based on what you've read other people do, including things as specific as "cutting this frequency here" and "boosting that one there". (There are hints in your mixes which I infer as this, anyway.)
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Old 06-24-2020, 10:06 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Dork Lard View Post
This is all fine the way it applies to me, you, everyone on this forum. But major studios that produce the likes of Rihanna, etc ? Production wise it sounds too perfect to just be all human.

Like there is software that does some of the work for you, I know with Ozone for e.g. you can feed it a reference track and have it emulate the mastering for your song. It isn't perfect. It can be quite helpful. But Ozone is just a mere plugin the regular Joe can pay a couple hundred $ and use up 1GB of hard disk to have. Those major studios with millions $ behind them can't be using the exact same products we're using in our bedrooms here on our laptops.
The first and foremost important tool for a professional mixing/mastering engineer is the room they are using
to do their work. If they do not have a professional acoustic environment then they can't use the 2nd most
important tool, their ears.

A lot of good folks do not understand that, but it's absolutely true.

There are plugins that can be, and are used by even the most advanced engineers, plugins like Span. And I'm
willing to bet 99.9% of the engineers doing professional mixing/mastering use Span. Either Span or some other
"spectrum analyzer". But still, they use their trained ears in combination with the room and monitor systems,
without that they have nothing.

For the last 6 months I've been developing what I call "Profile Curves" that I use with Span. They've become
a huge help to me with my mixing and mastering. I do have a professional control room to work in and I've
been doing this for over 50 years, however, my hearing drops off rapidly from 4Khrz on, so the profiles are
a huge help to me.
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Old 06-24-2020, 10:08 AM   #22
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No matter how advanced or primitive the technology, the key to making better mixes is to mix and mix more, listen critically in different environments and mix more and more. Repeat, repeat. There is simply no one making great mixes today who didn't start by making less than good mixes and got to where they are after years of doing it over and over again. Even when software does amazing things to solve an audio equation, like dynamic eqs and multiband compressors, which are relatively new in the grand scheme of things, high end mixers don't treat them like magic buttons. They're all just tools that get used or overused or not used. The main ingredient is time put in to becoming a better mixer.
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Old 06-24-2020, 10:30 AM   #23
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The first and foremost important tool for a professional mixing/mastering engineer is the room they are using
to do their work. If they do not have a professional acoustic environment then they can't use the 2nd most
important tool, their ears.

A lot of good folks do not understand that, but it's absolutely true.
I'm going to disagree with you a bit on this. The problem that most amateur mixers have is that they're mixing their own recordings.

Which means they're mixing their songs, performed by them and recorded by them.

If they're not great mixers, they're probably not great songwriters, arrangers or engineers either.

One of the best ways to get a great mix is to have a great song to mix. Then have it arranged properly, performed by great musicians and then have it recorded well.

I will take all of those things over a great room all day long.
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Old 06-24-2020, 10:32 AM   #24
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No matter how advanced or primitive the technology, the key to making better mixes is to mix and mix more, listen critically in different environments and mix more and more. Repeat, repeat. There is simply no one making great mixes today who didn't start by making less than good mixes and got to where they are after years of doing it over and over again. Even when software does amazing things to solve an audio equation, like dynamic eqs and multiband compressors, which are relatively new in the grand scheme of things, high end mixers don't treat them like magic buttons. They're all just tools that get used or overused or not used. The main ingredient is time put in to becoming a better mixer.
I think people don't realize how seldom those advanced techniques have been used over the years.
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Old 06-24-2020, 10:36 AM   #25
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I'm not gonna try to convince you anymore, OP. You are obviously set in your beliefs. Even with all the advice given to you here by people with decades of experience -- some of whom have worked with the mythical "perfect engineers" that you believe exist -- you don't seem to be able to accept the fact that great art is the result of years of practice, experience, and dedication to honing one's craft.

It really is bordering on a delusion at this point. I highly recommend dropping some LSD or doing something else to drastically alter your perspective at a root level. There's a world out there that you seem incapable of accepting the existence of.
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Old 06-24-2020, 10:57 AM   #26
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How do those studios who produce mainstream CDs know when the song is done ? For one they obviously have a few ppl listening, not just one guy like us. But I mean there comes that point when they take the decision and say: "it is now ready" and upload it somewhere to be made into sellable music. How can they be sure that kick at 2:33 in couldn't have used a tad more compression... and so on for tiny details ? I'm saying it feels like it's such a subjective work that requires an objective decision. Like, does it actually occur that a major mixer/producer would grimace when a certain part comes on, the way we do (we all have that one weak-ish part production wise in a song).

They MUST have some sort of device or software plugin that can help analyze how scientifically sound the song is, and make automatic changes. I can't remember the last time I heard half an error in commercial music (not that I listen that closely...).
When the person the team in question decided is in charge of signing off on the mix signs off on the mix.

Commercial releases run the gambit from the best recording and best mix just really fussed over to some mighty amateur sounding examples. It sounds like you are talking more about the former of course. The sad thing is a "commercial" release only has to be loud and treble-y to be accepted by the masses. Now, it might not stay in rotation in your playlist or have any longevity. It might only be embraced by listeners in its genre. But it will be accepted for release.

There are people involved in the business with different disciplines than music and sound. Some people will say something sounds good when what they really only meant was they heard it coming out of the speakers. More corporate handled projects can sound bluntly bad. Artist handled projects put in the time to make everything perfect to them and follow the mastering to release formats with a careful ear. Someone might record their whole album with full studio production as a demo trial run, examine everything and then start over! Just really put in the time and fuss over everything. There are some really stunning examples out there. The "corporate" artist more in it for popularity might stroll in one day and ask "Yo, my album done?"

I don't know about anyone else but I see the prevalence of those commercial stinkers as an opportunity to be a big fish in a small pond with this!
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Old 06-24-2020, 11:05 AM   #27
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I'd like to add another thought, to hopefully open the eyes a bit...

Reverb plugins are something I love and hate. I agonized over getting the right reverb sound for years. The amount of time I spent comparing reverbs is only second to the amount of time I spent comparing compressors.

I was watching one of Kenny's "Reaper Mania" videos a while ago. He starts describing how to make a track fit into a mix, and discusses vocal reverb on a basic level. I immediately roll my eyes as he loads ReaVerbate. Resisting my urge to close the video, I soldier on. He then proves that he's better at mixing than I am, because 1) he demonstrates that with a bit of EQ on the reverb bus, ReaVerbate can sound nice, and 2) in a mix context (being able to see the forest, despite all the trees) THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT and I've totally missed that somehow.

If you haven't had an epiphany moment like that, you will never be a good mixing engineer. I'm probably not done having epiphanies, but that was one of them. I actually felt embarrassed watching that video, knowing my prejudice with which I faced that plugin "with all my experience" comparing it with other reverbs. Not that I don't prefer other reverbs to it still. But that's not the point. There's no one "magic reverb" just like there's no one "magic EQ" or "magic compressor". If a mixing engineer makes it work well for the context, it IS right for the job. Knowing that is far more important than buying more plugins or gear.

I recommend you watch all of Kenny's videos. Even if you think "Yeah yeah, I know how to do this...blah blah blah WHY DON'T YOU TALK LIKE A NORMAL HUMAN, KENNY?!?!?", just relax and keep an open mind. You'll learn things you thought you already knew, probably in every video, irrespective of the subject.

Then maybe consider this, since it's probably well worth the money (I'll probably be buying it soon):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sprnVlxA7jM

I know it's not the kind of music you want to mix specifically. Keep in mind that the principles are the same and apply to all music, and that metal (and death metal etc.) aren't far removed from rock.
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Old 06-24-2020, 11:06 AM   #28
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The problem that most amateur mixers have is that they're mixing their own recordings.
Can I just add a thought to that?

When you mix your own music, some of the arrangement might be playing in your head and not actually coming out of the speakers!

Whereas if you mix something else, now you have to dial all the elements up properly if you want to ever hear it.

I think this is what goes on with beginner players too. Like the beginner who constantly stops and pauses or stops and starts over a bar. They're not listening to their result. If they were, they'd realize stopping the beat is a bigger mistake than a wrong note blowing by. They're listening to the 'recording' in their head and trying to play along.
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Old 06-24-2020, 11:14 AM   #29
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When an amateur makes a song, they write a chord progression, then some lyrics, then a chorus. They start recording a guitar and maybe some vocals, then drums and a bass and keys, and they tweak the sound and they re-record the vocals... In short, they are doing everything and anything at the same time, arranging, recording and mixing and it's a creative mess that may or may not result in something valuable.

When you mix professionally, you have a system. You receive a multi-track recording that you open in a template, then every mixing engineer has its own workflow but a lot of them will start by labeling tracks, making busses, balance the levels, use compression and EQ where necessary, get creative with modulation effects, and once they've gone through these steps (almost always in the same order for every song), they're done. There will be some going back and forth with a few revisions requested by the artist but basically that's it, it's a system, it's project management. There's no magic or weird AI involved.

And yes almost everyone has access to the same software tools as the top mixers. Great mixing isn't about gear, it's about knowing when and how to use it. Just like making great music isn't about the instrument.
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Old 06-24-2020, 11:21 AM   #30
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I was watching one of Kenny's "Reaper Mania" videos a while ago. He starts describing how to make a track fit into a mix, and discusses vocal reverb on a basic level. I immediately roll my eyes as he loads ReaVerbate. Resisting my urge to close the video, I soldier on. He then proves that he's better at mixing than I am, because 1) he demonstrates that with a bit of EQ on the reverb bus, ReaVerbate can sound nice, and 2) in a mix context (being able to see the forest, despite all the trees) THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT and I've totally missed that somehow.
Thanks for sharing. I do have to admit, I have also spent many hours trying to get that perfect reverb. But as time goes by, you realize it doesn't matter as much. What matters is how you approach things.

Not many people saw this but on facebook Steven Slate and I had a "Mix Off" where he got to use all of his plugins and I was only allowed to use the REAPER stock ones.

While I don't like to brag, let's just say that it's not the tools.
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Old 06-24-2020, 11:27 AM   #31
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One of the best ways to get a great mix is to have a great song to mix. Then have it arranged properly, performed by great musicians and then have it recorded well.

I will take all of those things over a great room all day long.
Good call! Which we've also called out in pretty much every other thread the OP has created on said subject. We've had sufficient tools (comparatively) for a very long time now.
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Old 06-24-2020, 11:37 AM   #32
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When you mix your own music, some of the arrangement might be playing in your head and not actually coming out of the speakers!
There is also something I've seen a lot... "I'm adding/playing this part because it is a cool part, make it fit!" without regard to the actual song, or what it is trying to get across. If there were something that should be taught more, this is one of them, and it occurs during the writing.

I'm extremely lucky to be in a band where the majority of the players are what I'd call the real deal, everyone in the band, whether it be a classic cover or our own tune, constantly listens and self-arranges their parts to work with the whole by wait for it... listening to and playing off each other, understanding when we are stomping on the vocal or eating up the register that is already occupied (by pitch or time).

Even if you are the only composer, that interaction of the parts (orchestration/arrangement if you will), is huge if paid attention to. I almost never see people posting and asking how to do that better, it is usually "what plugin will fit this square peg into that round hole". It should kind of be obvious if one has ever played covers, there is a reason some songs just seem easy to sound good, it's the parts man.
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Old 06-24-2020, 12:23 PM   #33
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Thanks for sharing. I do have to admit, I have also spent many hours trying to get that perfect reverb. But as time goes by, you realize it doesn't matter as much. What matters is how you approach things.
Perfection is a myth, a moving target, and a dream. The first thing we need to realize is that we're not going to get perfection, and neither did any of the artists/engineers we look up to. At my advanced age (cough) it's easier to look back a few decades and realize that some of the music I thought was perfectly mixed with instrument tracks that sounded so great...yeah well, they worked for the mix, I'll give them that much. We tend to see things from our own perspective, and we put things on pedestals that we shouldn't too. It's hard to get away from that.

For that matter: +1 to what Lophophora, Serr, and Kenny have said about mixing your own material versus someone else's. Hearing your own music, you tend to hear "what you want to hear" due to the fact it came from your own brain. Approaching mixing your own music as though it were someone else's requires a bit of a disconnect, to be more objective...about the subjective qualities you prefer for the mix. Yes it's complicated.

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Not many people saw this but on facebook Steven Slate and I had a "Mix Off" where he got to use all of his plugins and I was only allowed to use the REAPER stock ones.

While I don't like to brag, let's just say that it's not the tools.
I'll assume that your results were on par with his, in any case.

+1 to Karbo about our having sufficient tools (comparatively) for a very long time now. This isn't like the late 90s when recording on computers was a very different ballgame. I recently migrated to Linux and I'm not using any Windows-based software at all. People keep saying "really?" Yes. I have more plugins than I should ever need, already.

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There is also something I've seen a lot... "I'm adding/playing this part because it is a cool part, make it fit!"
Oh and: UGH!!!

There are reasons I decided to give up my dream of running a recording studio. That was one of them.
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Old 06-24-2020, 12:41 PM   #34
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Back to there being "magic plugins": I will admit there are plugins that can make things more convenient especially for those with less experience. (If I hadn't mentioned that already.) It doesn't take away from your need to understand using them appropriately though.

An example: Auburn Sounds "Couture" dynamics processor plugin (compressor) that I tried recently (there's a Linux version). There's a free version, so try it. There's a dial that goes from "squashed LA-2A-type sound" to "transient punch" seamlessly (and all shades between), and buttons to make the compressor sound more "lively" or "flat" etc. Adjusting a couple controls can get you very good results very quickly...but you still need to know what kind of sound you're going for.

I think most people could use Couture for everything. However I hear nothing about it that I can't already do with other dynamics processors. And Couture has significant latency to it, which may be a deal breaker for some people's uses (if they want to use it on a "live" synth track or monitor with it etc.) I don't blame the plugin for requiring latency, since it's supposed to go seamlessly from one kind of compression to another. I use zero-latency plugins for those same sounds, but I can't get the same kind of transient enhancement that Couture gets from the plugin that I normally use for "squishy compression" for example.

Since I already know how to get those sounds, and how to dial them in with other plugins--even though I'd need to use 2-3 other plugins to get that range of sounds--I don't feel a need to buy Couture. If it were capable of doing its magic with zero latency though, I'd buy it for a "no-brainer" compressor to use any time I'm lazy. It's cheap enough I still might buy it anyway.

Using this plugin, some people could be very lazy and attribute "magic" compression quality to the plugin itself. There's nothing about the plugin that can't be done with others, except for the convenience factor (in my opinion anyway). The same could be said of lots of other great plugins too. If you decide that a plugin is worth it for your workflow, then for you, it is. Just don't expect that a certain plugin is "the magic" or "the glue" or whatever makes your mix "perfect".
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Old 06-24-2020, 12:57 PM   #35
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Oh and: UGH!!!

There are reasons I decided to give up my dream of running a recording studio. That was one of them.
Haha, me too - I had every opportunity to work in a larger one or build my own but... I don't have the loving/guiding/parenting patience to deal with that. I have the people skills from a customer perspective, have done it in some form all my life but I knew this particular one, I wouldn't have the patience for - and I couldn't bring myself to polish turds and act like they aren't turds all day just for the income - super deep respect to those who can do that though.
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Old 06-24-2020, 01:05 PM   #36
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Way back in the year 2000 (as seen on Conan)...

At the time I was giving up on the idea of running a recording studio, a friend of mine was doubling down the other way. He was re-recording tracks for his clients after they'd left, usually replacing most of the instruments and most of the vocals with his own tracks. Of course the clients attributed the "studio magic" to the technology and his mixing skill; they couldn't tell that the tracks were completely deleted and redone by a better musician.

Even if I had the same proficiency on every instrument--which I still don't, not by far--I'd have wanted to pull my eyes out just to have something to throw at these people who somehow assumed their poor musicianship "just became better" "because studio magic".

My friend hit a wall doing this at some point too. He couldn't handle the extra work for the relatively low pay. And no amount of "studio magic" would equal redoing all the tracks inherently better at the source. So he taught guitar lessons, and made more money doing that.
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Old 06-24-2020, 01:47 PM   #37
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Dork really ought to appreciate what is being written, especially by some if not nearly all!

I am a firm believer in rubbish in rubbish out.....albeit with some embellishment.

We can be too narrow minded as mixing includes more than music and more than your favourite genre ...whatever that might be.

But for music the most important input to acceptability (cos it comes down to that commercially) is the musicianship . By that I mean all the work that happens before the sound hits the mic. It is the same for virtually all the uses that sound is used for be it music releases, TV, film, radio or live performance! The "engineer" needs something good to work with. That is not always quality recorded tracks. Of course there is added synthesised sound too.

As an analogy, consider a live classical concert.
The mixing engineer here is the conductor and some virtually perfect performances are quite common (but often different one to another). That is down to the skill of the composer, players, acoustic qualities and the interpretation and control of the conductor.

Well maybe a bit simplistic and only partial but..
.......................where is the automated software?????



Crikey! How could I as an engineer write that!! I might have to resign from the club
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Old 06-24-2020, 01:57 PM   #38
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You know when your track is ready when it sounds like the reference track that you are using to compare it to.
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Old 06-24-2020, 02:08 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
I'm going to disagree with you a bit on this. The problem that most amateur mixers have is that they're mixing their own recordings.

Which means they're mixing their songs, performed by them and recorded by them.

If they're not great mixers, they're probably not great songwriters, arrangers or engineers either.
Hi Kenney, it seemed to me this thread is basically about how the experts do it. That and I was also
reacting to this post.

Quote:
They MUST have some sort of device or software plugin that can help analyze how scientifically sound the song is, and make automatic changes.
But I do stand by what I said about a good room and experienced ears, those are the primary tools, not
some magic plugin.

Quote:
One of the best ways to get a great mix is to have a great song to mix. Then have it arranged properly, performed by great musicians and then have it recorded well.

I will take all of those things over a great room all day long.
Yes, I totally agree, but here again, without a decent listening environment it's very difficult to get
those great sounds, or develope a good ear.

Quote:
No matter how advanced or primitive the technology, the key to making better mixes is to mix and mix more, listen critically in different environments and mix more and more. Repeat, repeat. There is simply no one making great mixes today who didn't start by making less than good mixes and got to where they are after years of doing it over and over again. Even when software does amazing things to solve an audio equation, like dynamic eqs and multiband compressors, which are relatively new in the grand scheme of things, high end mixers don't treat them like magic buttons. They're all just tools that get used or overused or not used. The main ingredient is time put in to becoming a better mixer.
I totally agree vdubreeze, and I would add "Listen, then listen again and again, and again, and again, and again, etc.."
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Old 06-24-2020, 02:28 PM   #40
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As in your last thread, this is an argument from incredulity fallacy blended with some argument from authority fallacy. Just because you can't believe something can be true doesn't mean it can't be. And just because "someone more pro than you" can get better results than you doesn't mean they're necessarily doing something inherently superior in a specific sense (other than using their knowledge/skills more appropriately).

There are no super-secret-squirrel devices that are only made available to "mega producers" for millions of dollars, and no, Waves isn't making magic plugins only for them either.

And think about which of these two options are more likely:

1) People making better mixes than you have secret devices/plugins, or
2) You don't know how to mix as well as they do.

(Not to make a false dichotomy argument, but as an example.)

Be honest with yourself.

I've heard some of your songs on Youtube (I followed the link from a previous post, which then let me check out your recordings by clicking on your "videos" page). It's clear you're missing some basics of how to work a mix the way you want. It's not about a certain plugin or device. I'd also be willing to bet a fair amount of the processes you do are based on what you've read other people do, including things as specific as "cutting this frequency here" and "boosting that one there". (There are hints in your mixes which I infer as this, anyway.)
This isn't about me or about taking a logic course online though (!). I'm genuinely asking the question about what differentiates the local Reaper user and the mega production studio. If the answer is: nothing, then nothing it is. I have no problem with that, in fact it's encouraging it means I have all the tools and can get there right now. I would imagine the answer isn't "nothing", but if that's your answer so be it. You heard my mixes from 3 years ago ? I've come a long way. Thank God hahaha.

I do agree on your next post about "magic plugins". Yes, there are certainly some plugins that are more powerful than others. Not every EQ is as "efficient", or able to transform the sound the same way, not every compression plugin adds the same flavor, etc. There are certain plugins I use these days (mostly Waves) that I'd be pretty bummed not to have anymore.

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You know when your track is ready when it sounds like the reference track that you are using to compare it to.
Hah, well that is true. The most useful thing. Every time I'm done finetuning my session for the day, I render the file and listen to a Linkin Park track for 20 seconds then play mine. It's either going to be depressing (how far I am) but these days it's rather encouraging (finally...).
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