Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > Recording Technologies and Techniques

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-04-2020, 07:14 PM   #41
eq1
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: PNW, USA
Posts: 655
Default

New issue - I thought it might be worth posting, in case one of you know off the top of your head what this might be.

The replacement audio interface I bought seems to have a problem. The #2 left and right analog inputs, 1/4 inch, have quite a bit of noise. I have insert peak meters on those channels and I can see them simmering 'a few bars-worth' of noise. I can hear it, too, if I turn the volume up. The # 1 inputs have no noise.

And, when I tap on the audio interface case around those rear 1/4 inch jacks, the right channel peak meter goes 'boop, boop, boop' along with the tapping, i.e. the meter jumps every time I tap on the case (it doesn't actually make a 'boop, boop, boop', noise)...

With my limited knowledge of these sorts of electronics, all that comes to mind is bad solder joints or something like that.

Could it be that, or maybe there's pretty generic types of design for analog inputs on audio interfaces - and there's a component that typically goes bad and can create noise?? It's just a fuzzy noise -white noise? Pink noise? That fuzzy noise noise...

Here's an image showing the noise on the meters, at 'rest' and with me tapping on the case:


edit:
hmm, I just noticed something: If I insert a plug into the left jack, the noise in the right channel goes away - and if I insert a plug into the right jack, noise on the left one goes away... So maybe this isn't as bad as it could have been. Is this normal, typical? Wonder why I don't see this on the #1 channels?...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2nd_E-MU1616m_input_channel_noise.jpg (49.0 KB, 407 views)

Last edited by eq1; 07-04-2020 at 07:30 PM.
eq1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2020, 09:47 PM   #42
JamesPeters
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near a big lake
Posts: 3,943
Default

I vaguely recall that there are inputs enabled which are noisier, and paired with other inputs, that you can disable. Phono inputs possibly?

It's been years since I used one of those, but I remember hearing noise at first until I checked all the inputs/outputs and disabled/muted the things I wasn't using.
JamesPeters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2020, 10:25 PM   #43
jiff 41
Human being with feelings
 
jiff 41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: WALES, UK
Posts: 811
Default

What happens if you just put dummy jacks in those inputs?, does it solve the problem?
__________________
"I started out with nothing & i still have most of it left"(seasick steve)
jiff 41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2020, 04:37 AM   #44
Allybye
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 680
Default

I do not know the unit specifically but jack insertion selecting a different input with different gain rings a bell as other posters have mentioned.

However what you describe in terms of noise seem like either microphony (unlikely given it is 'white noise' ish in character as microphony is like the description like the vibration of components) and I would think your other idea of a bad joint or a dry solder joint is more likely.

If you are testing for or locating noise though you really ought to have the input terminated correctly. For most mic inputs a 200ohms resistor is 'standard' (unless a very high or low mic impedance is the designed for source) and for those inputs designed for higher impedance sources (like DI boxes etc) an appropriately higher value resistor should be used. All between hot and cold terminals (balanced) or hot and ground (unbalanced) inputs. That then test the device correctly in it's designed operating mode.

If you do that and still have your noise (you probably will have!) greater than the expected s/n ratio, then you have a fault.
Allybye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2020, 03:10 PM   #45
eq1
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: PNW, USA
Posts: 655
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPeters View Post
I vaguely recall that there are inputs enabled which are noisier, and paired with other inputs, that you can disable. Phono inputs possibly? It's been years since I used one of those, but I remember hearing noise at first until I checked all the inputs/outputs and disabled/muted the things I wasn't using.
That could very well be the case. It does have phono jacks. Truth is I rarely use beyond 1 pair of left/right inputs, rarer still that I use 2 pairs. And I usually only have channel strips for channels I'm actively using.

But, I never noticed the noise on my older unit, and I don't see it on the channel 1. And the behavior when tapping seemed odd, like 'that shouldn't be happening if all's copacetic'...


Quote:
Originally Posted by jiff 41 View Post
What happens if you just put dummy jacks in those inputs?, does it solve the problem?
That's exactly what I did at the end of my previous post. I just inserted plugs, no cable, into the jacks. So I'd say, yes, the problem goes away - the noise disappears. So if I'm actually using the inputs then it appears there IS no problem...

The only issue, now, would appear to be this: If I unwittingly had those channels active in the software mixer, and they weren't muted or if they were sent in some way to the DAW, then the noise would get into the mix. Otherwise, I just need to make sure I deactivate them and/or make sure they're not routed to the DAW.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Allybye View Post
...However what you describe in terms of noise seems like either microphony (unlikely given it is 'white noise' ish in character as microphony is like the description like the vibration of components) and I would think your other idea of a bad joint or a dry solder joint is more likely.
I might open it up and check the joints. I don't think those inputs are connected in any way to the mic inputs. Those are at the front of the device, seem quite separate, with their own pre-amps, phantom power, and what-not...

Anyway... Thanks, all, once again for your advice. I really appreciate it.
eq1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2020, 04:09 PM   #46
eq1
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: PNW, USA
Posts: 655
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPeters View Post
I vaguely recall that there are inputs enabled which are noisier, and paired with other inputs, that you can disable. Phono inputs possibly?
I feel so 'Duh', now: This is exactly what the 'problem' is. The number 2 inputs on this device are connected to phono inputs (RCA jacks right next to the 1/4 inch). I thought the RCAs/phono were on a third pair of inputs - but there is no third pair! Hey, it's all on the back of the device, I almost never see it...

I opened-up the manual, and right there in the margin it has this warning:

"It’s a good idea to mute MicroDock inputs 2 in the PatchMix DSP mixer when
nothing is plugged in, since the turntable preamp has a very high gain (60dB) and could contribute extra noise to your mix/monitor bus."

Well, glad that's solved.

edit: Just for completeness-sake, here's an image of the front and back of the 'Microdock', clipped from manual:



And to be even more thorough, here's something from the manual that adresses what jiff 41 asked:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiff 41 View Post
What happens if you just put dummy jacks in those inputs?, does it solve the problem?
Manual:
"RIAA equalized turntable preamp input allows you to connect a turntable
without using an expensive external preamp. Note: These inputs are
automatically disconnected when plugs are inserted into inputs 2L & 2R."
Attached Images
File Type: jpg E-MU_1616m_Doc_IO.jpg (56.3 KB, 366 views)

Last edited by eq1; 07-05-2020 at 04:27 PM.
eq1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2020, 04:25 PM   #47
JamesPeters
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near a big lake
Posts: 3,943
Default

Glad to help! It had annoyed me too. The noise floor was very low especially at the time it was released. But the first day or so, I kept wondering what that noise was about. Stupid phono preamp lol. It's easy enough to mute those inputs, and from what I recall if you connect cables to the 1/4" jacks it uses the switching on the jacks themselves to mute the phono preamp for the RCA jacks.
JamesPeters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2020, 04:31 PM   #48
eq1
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: PNW, USA
Posts: 655
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPeters View Post
...and from what I recall if you connect cables to the 1/4" jacks it uses the switching on the jacks themselves to mute the phono preamp for the RCA jacks.
You have a good memory - see my last edit in my previous post!
eq1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2020, 11:06 PM   #49
jiff 41
Human being with feelings
 
jiff 41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: WALES, UK
Posts: 811
Default

I opened up the full input preset yesterday to try it out (I normally only open the inputs I'm using) & the noise is there with mine as well! muting or plugging a dummy in gets rid but so does getting rid of unused channels which is what I normally do as I don't even have a turntable anymore which made me feel quite sad when I realised it? as I still got all my vinyl?
__________________
"I started out with nothing & i still have most of it left"(seasick steve)
jiff 41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2021, 02:03 PM   #50
eq1
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: PNW, USA
Posts: 655
Default Get E-MU 1010/1212/1616 working on W10

I thought it might be good to post a link here to a thread in the KVR audio forum that describes how to get the E-MU 1010/1212/1616 working in Windows 10. I posted some info in that thread, here's a link to those posts:

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewt...29033#p8129033

It appears that, in a nut shell, all you need to do is replace a single driver file with an updated one, and the updated one is something Creative has updated themselves yet only for the 'Soundblaster Xfi Titanium' card (much bigger market than the 1010 etal) - but both systems/cards use the same or similar-enough driver. The file that gets replaced is named CTOSS2K.sys in the windows/system32/drivers folder.
eq1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 03:54 AM   #51
jiff 41
Human being with feelings
 
jiff 41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: WALES, UK
Posts: 811
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eq1 View Post
I thought it might be good to post a link here to a thread in the KVR audio forum that describes how to get the E-MU 1010/1212/1616 working in Windows 10. I posted some info in that thread, here's a link to those posts:

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewt...29033#p8129033

It appears that, in a nut shell, all you need to do is replace a single driver file with an updated one, and the updated one is something Creative has updated themselves yet only for the 'Soundblaster Xfi Titanium' card (much bigger market than the 1010 etal) - but both systems/cards use the same or similar-enough driver. The file that gets replaced is named CTOSS2K.sys in the windows/system32/drivers folder.



This is great news! If you have any advice/updates please post them?.
__________________
"I started out with nothing & i still have most of it left"(seasick steve)
jiff 41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 01:11 PM   #52
eq1
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: PNW, USA
Posts: 655
Default

^ Will-do. I've still barely scratched the surface in terms of 'testing' it out - installed an older PCI card from scratch, loaded the drivers and patchmix, swapped to the new, alternative driver, verified that the emu system worked in general - stereo output with headphones, seemingly playing nicely with W10 audio, tried switching from 44.1K to 48k, that's about it. All these things worked fine, everything looked normal.

Hopefully I can get a REAPER installation up and running soon and try that out. All this is on a different computer than I normally work on, so I've still got to get the whole thing more or less sorted out...

What's cool for me is that this new-used computer I bought happened to have a PCI slot in it - and I had an older PCI card laying around that was going unused. I figured it was worth trying that, and it works fine. Pretty amazing when you think about it: That PCI card must be from like ~2007.

I don't know, we'll see how it goes.
eq1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 11:26 PM   #53
jiff 41
Human being with feelings
 
jiff 41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: WALES, UK
Posts: 811
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eq1 View Post
^ Will-do. I've still barely scratched the surface in terms of 'testing' it out - installed an older PCI card from scratch, loaded the drivers and patchmix, swapped to the new, alternative driver, verified that the emu system worked in general - stereo output with headphones, seemingly playing nicely with W10 audio, tried switching from 44.1K to 48k, that's about it. All these things worked fine, everything looked normal.

Hopefully I can get a REAPER installation up and running soon and try that out. All this is on a different computer than I normally work on, so I've still got to get the whole thing more or less sorted out...

What's cool for me is that this new-used computer I bought happened to have a PCI slot in it - and I had an older PCI card laying around that was going unused. I figured it was worth trying that, and it works fine. Pretty amazing when you think about it: That PCI card must be from like ~2007.

I don't know, we'll see how it goes.

When I first updated to W10 things started going wrong & with every update my 1616m was going further away & in the end I put my old cheap card back but decided to go back to W7 & was happy but more & more things are moving away from 7 now so if I could put 10 back & get my E-MU working with it it would be great!
I must thank you for the work you've done already & given me hope.
__________________
"I started out with nothing & i still have most of it left"(seasick steve)
jiff 41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 11:38 PM   #54
eq1
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: PNW, USA
Posts: 655
Default

^ I didn't really do any work - those other guys did, at that other thread... although the whole process they have there seems a bit obsolete, cuz in the end it really does look like it's only the single driver that needs to be swapped.

There's one more instruction at the other thread that has to do with preventing future Windows updates from messing with that driver. Worth checking out.

I did get REAPER installed and tried out ASIO. It seems to work fine. I still have to load an actual project though, rather than just using media explorer to click through stereo audio files to confirm there's glitch-free sound. I haven't been doing any tracking/recording for a while, nor much MIDI, so not sure when I'll get around to testing those.

I know what you mean, being caught between W7 and W10. Same boat here. I tried a couple Linux versions last month, didn't have much success. I still may go that direction though, perhaps once I get this slightly newer computer going.
eq1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2021, 04:26 AM   #55
jiff 41
Human being with feelings
 
jiff 41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: WALES, UK
Posts: 811
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eq1 View Post
^ I didn't really do any work - those other guys did, at that other thread... although the whole process they have there seems a bit obsolete, cuz in the end it really does look like it's only the single driver that needs to be swapped.

There's one more instruction at the other thread that has to do with preventing future Windows updates from messing with that driver. Worth checking out.

I did get REAPER installed and tried out ASIO. It seems to work fine. I still have to load an actual project though, rather than just using media explorer to click through stereo audio files to confirm there's glitch-free sound. I haven't been doing any tracking/recording for a while, nor much MIDI, so not sure when I'll get around to testing those.

I know what you mean, being caught between W7 and W10. Same boat here. I tried a couple Linux versions last month, didn't have much success. I still may go that direction though, perhaps once I get this slightly newer computer going.

I tried Linux & was well pleased but SO many plug-ins won't work that I had to go back to 7?
I'll have to move a lot of things before I can go to 10 as last time I lost loads of work (Nothing important just things I had done & thought "Ooo that's nice?) so I'll make sure this time?.
__________________
"I started out with nothing & i still have most of it left"(seasick steve)
jiff 41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 08:23 AM   #56
jiff 41
Human being with feelings
 
jiff 41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: WALES, UK
Posts: 811
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eq1 View Post
I thought it might be good to post a link here to a thread in the KVR audio forum that describes how to get the E-MU 1010/1212/1616 working in Windows 10. I posted some info in that thread, here's a link to those posts:

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewt...29033#p8129033

It appears that, in a nut shell, all you need to do is replace a single driver file with an updated one, and the updated one is something Creative has updated themselves yet only for the 'Soundblaster Xfi Titanium' card (much bigger market than the 1010 etal) - but both systems/cards use the same or similar-enough driver. The file that gets replaced is named CTOSS2K.sys in the windows/system32/drivers folder.



Well I tried it & IT WORKS!!
Many thanks to whoever worked this out!.
__________________
"I started out with nothing & i still have most of it left"(seasick steve)
jiff 41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 05:33 PM   #57
eq1
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: PNW, USA
Posts: 655
Default

^ Glad that worked out. I've actually taken a different turn since I last posted, and... none of this has been fun, to say the least.

After puttering around W10 for a few days, it was making me so nauseous that I had to try a W7 install instead. It's like nothing added between W7 and W10 is worth anything to me, it's just a bunch of crap. It's like everything I didn't like moving from XP to 7 was put on steroids for the transition from 7 to 10.

I can't understand why Microsoft wouldn't (couldn't) just make a slimmer trimmer OS that can actually work better on newer machines. Every update since I guess Windows 98 I have kept thinking, 'Boy, the computers are getting so much better, faster, that the next Windows OS will work fantastic on these!' It just never happens. I mean, it's no mystery: you've got millions of bloat-loving office workers and IT pros, etc., and a handful of... me. But still, one can dream... Or at least I used to... I think the dream is truly dead.

Anyway, I've been trying to get the W7 up and running but it hasn't been easy. I haven't even really gotten to the audio part of it. It's just 'service packs' and updates, driver updates, and all that. Like, I did this from scratch with an original OEM DVD - I didn't even realize there was a Windows 7 original (build 7600) and a service pack 1 (build 7601). The DVD was the original, and basic stuff just doesn't want to work with it... Luckily, finally, I was able to find service pack 1 - Microsoft actually still has it available, but it's pretty obscure (Microsoft Update Catalog has it, along with all other updates)...

Etc etc. Sorry to unload on y'all. It's just some maddening stuff. When I was working with Linux distros, I was griping about that process, and someone said, 'Well, it's not much better, if at all, with Windows, and with Linux you can actually find an ultimate answer underneath it all, whereas you can't do that with Windows.' I'm starting to see that, this process hasn't been any better, the extent to which it might be better would be due to me simply being more familiar with some of the Windows conventions.

All this is to say that I'm almost certain I'll be trying another Linux build. I may have to give up the E-MU in that process.
eq1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.