Razor Edit Discussion

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

For those wanting to use TS actions to edit material in an AS selection, what are your thoughts on a contextual system that a few people have previously proposed?

Something like the following:

- If there is a current active AS, it supersedes the TS and any action that works with TS will work on the active AS instead
- While the AS is active, loop points will instead be used for functions like Render via Time Selection and other timeline functions until the AS is no longer active
- When there is no current active AS, TS actions will work as they normally do so those not using AS will not be affected in any way.

This would have a few benefits. First, no new actions need to be created for AS. Everyone can continue using the same actions. Create a new AS and simply use the same action you were using for TS. Two, users can fully replace their TS workflow with AS instead of being limited to basic editing only. And three, no previous workflow is broken either by combining AS with TS or by forcing those who only use TS to adopt a different workflow.

Thoughts?

I'd be in to anything that accomplishes the broad goal of being able to (mostly) replace TS with AS. I'm hesitant to offer any actual implementation ideas myself as I don't really know what's involved in making them happen and I don't want to get too attached a specific thing, but I think what you laid out here sounds good. Unfortunately the name change from Area Selection to Razor Edit makes me beleive the Devs current thinking is to limit AS functionality down to just basic cut and paste type operations, without a plan to integrate it more fully.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

I'd be in to anything that accomplishes the broad goal of being able to (mostly) replace TS with AS. I'm hesitant to offer any actual implementation ideas myself as I don't really know what's involved in making them happen and I don't want to get too attached a specific thing, but I think what you laid out here sounds good. Unfortunately the name change from Area Selection to Razor Edit makes me beleive the Devs current thinking is to limit AS functionality down to just basic cut and paste type operations, without a plan to integrate it more fully.

To be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the Razor name. When I think razor, I think tape editing, not modern DAW area selection.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

Something like the following:

- If there is a current active AS, it supersedes the TS and any action that works with TS will work on the active AS instead
- While the AS is active, loop points will instead be used for functions like Render via Time Selection and other timeline functions until the AS is no longer active
- When there is no current active AS, TS actions will work as they normally do so those not using AS will not be affected in any way.

Thoughts?

If you create a TS, then an AS, how do you use the TS again while keeping the AS?

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

To be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the Razor name. When I think razor, I think tape editing, not modern DAW area selection.

I agree, it's weird. I think maybe they were taking a name cue from some other software. Final Cut and Adobe Premiere both have a razor tool, though in those cases it's only used for splitting items, not selection and copy/paste.

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

If you create a TS, then an AS, how do you use the TS again while keeping the AS?

You don't? I believe the idea of contextual system like this, is that if you're using AS, TS is no longer relevant beyond the features that get passed off to the loop points.

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

Oh i just saw schwa's post... So this means that we are going to use two tools as a feature "completed" AS instead of one? I hope not.
I very hope so, more things will be added so we could edit envelopes more in depth.
Adding zones to edit envelope segments, expand/compress values,fades would make Reaper's AS stand next to other Daws implementations..

Automation Items are just as easy to draw as Area Selections, and they already offer lots of editing features, including simultaneous editing of multiple envelopes segments via pooled AIs. In the case of envelope editing, it may therefore be a good idea to focus on completing the AI feature set instead.

It may also be useful to have an action to convert Area Selections of envelopes into (pooled and selected) AIs.

[planetnine]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

I agree, it's weird. I think maybe they were taking a name cue from some other software. Final Cut and Adobe Premiere both have a razor tool, though in those cases it's only used for splitting items, not selection and copy/paste.

Yes razor editing seems like the “split and select” workflow rather than AS.

To be completely unhelpful, the “ants” are what Marquee Select used to have and is why it is called Marquee Select (looks like a cinema marquee board). This means we have “razor edit” with a Marquee box and “Marquee Select” without one


>

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by planetnine

To be completely unhelpful, the “ants” are what Marquee Select used to have and is why it is called Marquee Select (looks like a cinema marquee board). This means we have “razor edit” with a Marquee box and “Marquee Select” without one

Ha! I've always wondered why the term marquee was used for a selection box. Thanks for that tidbit.

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by juliansader

Automation Items are just as easy to draw as Area Selections, and they already offer lots of editing features, including simultaneous editing of multiple envelopes segments via pooled AIs. In the case of envelope editing, it may therefore be a good idea to focus on completing the AI feature set instead.

I wouldn't mind especially if more features and zones would be added, so we could edit things with the mouse and not from the menu only.
On the other hand, using the same modifier/tool for doing most of the edits would be awesome.
But we can't move multiple segments in the same AI(if it's already created), we have to split and then pool them to move separately envelope segments. Otherwise we have to copy or draw new pooled ones. With multiple AS, this could be possible for envelopes but i'm not sure for AIs if it was later added.
And please don't get me wrong, i support the future development of AIs, they are very useful and need more attention.

Originally Posted by juliansader

It may also be useful to have an action to convert Area Selections of envelopes into (pooled and selected) AIs.

This sounds cool

[Funkybot]

Can we get some insight to Schwa about what specifically the conflicts/challenges were in the first place? It might help better understand what will and won't work. For instance, Klangfarben's "AS supersedes TS" approach sounds perfectly logical to me. Don't want that? Just don't use AS at all. If you do use it, you understand that AS gets all the commands (I'm assuming except looping if loop points to TS is on).

If that won't work, it'd be nice to understand why. Example: "if we did that, it will conflict with the following actions/modifiers and cause us to rethink X, Y, and Z. And if we do that for X, what happens when you combine Y+Z later on?"

I'd also raise a more broad question: is the idea of Reaper as a "tool-less DAW" starting to hold back functionality? Is it now dogma? If tool-like functionality improved the product, even if that meant "I'll give you the actions you need to do whatever and you can assign them to mouse modifier presets however you'd like, essentially creating tools for each view" then I say go for it.

I imagine a world where I could create my own mouse modifier presets for the main view as well as the MIDI view, and assign those to a toolbar. So if I ***wanted*** to create a tool, I could. And where I could have something like....

Arrange View Mouse Preset 1 ("Time Selection"):

1. Left Drag: select time
2. Shift+Left Drag: move time
3. Ctrl+Left Drag: make copy of selected media item
etc


Arrange View Mouse Preset 2 ("Area Selection"):

1. Left drag: Create Area Selection
2. Shift+Left Drag: move Area Selection
3. Ctrl+Left Drag: make copy of Area Selection
4. Alt+Left Drag: Add to Area Selection
5. Left Click: Deselect all items and move edit cursor
etc.

Arrange View Mouse Preset 3 ("Split"):

1. Left click: Split under mouse cursor
2. Shift+click: Split at edit cursor
etc...

Arrange View Mouse Preset 4 ("Glue"):

1. Left click: Glue selected items
etc...

Bonus points if themers could create mouse preset icon.png's.

Would that type of implementation solve the AS issues? I'm not sure. What are the AS issues? Just spit-balling. The most Reaper thing in the world to me would be adding this additional layer of mouse customization. Give the users the ability to customize however they wanted. And if users want to customize themselves some "tools" well whatever. A razer icon is practically a tool right? Why not go the whole 9 yards.

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

- If there is a current active AS, it supersedes the TS and any action that works with TS will work on the active AS instead
- While the AS is active, loop points will instead be used for functions like Render via Time Selection and other timeline functions until the AS is no longer active
- When there is no current active AS, TS actions will work as they normally do so those not using AS will not be affected in any way.

Sounds very good! +1

So if i have an area selection and loop points are been created, after i close AS, i will not have to create a new TS to render?

[Vagelis]

Funkybot great post, i agree on all points! I think those are very important things that need to be discussed!

[mccrabney]

+1 for AS Supersedes TS ("ASsTS™")

if such a system is possible, i think it could be the answer. it also sets up a nice A/B selection workflow, where A is your main focus: TS/loop, and B is a more dynamic, precise series of AS.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

Sounds very good! +1

So if i have an area selection and loop points are been created, after i close AS, i will not have to create a new TS to render?

Yes, in other words the TS is stored as loop points with an active AS and when the AS is no longer active, the loop points again become the TS.

This would allow you to still render via TS with an active AS and other purely timeline functions, while using other actions for the AS. And then go right back to the previous TS when finished with the AS.

[_Stevie_]

Originally Posted by FeedTheCat

+1

Vertical and horizontal combined would be really nice. This should also be the behavior when grabbing the corner of a razor edit.

+1, this is a behavior i would welcome in multiple areas: copy/move selected items and copy/move notes in the ME.

[_Stevie_]

AS supersedes TS sounds like a very good idea. I can’t see a reason why this shouldn’t work.

[Mercado_Negro]

Yeah, I also think that could work.

[schwa]

We've had a lot of internal discussion about this. The purpose of renaming area selection to razor edit is to create a coherent mental model for what this feature does, and to specifically remove the user expectation that this feature behaves similarly to project time selections.

We are thinking about it this way: moving, copying, and stretching areas is one domain of behaviors -- call these razor edit behaviors. Manipulating objects (media items and envelope points) within a range is a different domain of behaviors -- call these area selection behaviors. Given that razor edits currently don't support *any* area selection behaviors, focusing on the razor edit domain gives us a useful intermediate milestone for the feature.

We can always expand into the area selection domain after that milestone is reached, but if we throw the kitchen sink at this feature now and try to support everything, we're far more likely to end up with inconsistent behaviors, special cases, and unnecessary complexity.

That's the plan, anyway!

[Funkybot]

Schwa, so is this meant to be a temporary renaming while development continues (just for the sake of a milestone)? it would seem weird if more functionality was added later on and it was still called razer edit.

[n997]

Originally Posted by schwa

We can always expand into the area selection domain after that milestone is reached, but if we throw the kitchen sink at this feature now and try to support everything, we're far more likely to end up with inconsistent behaviors, special cases, and unnecessary complexity.

Is it planned to add Razor Edit (as it is now) to main release before attempting adding support for item and point operations into it?

[amagalma]

Originally Posted by schwa

Given that razor edits currently don't support *any* area selection behaviors, focusing on the razor edit domain gives us a useful intermediate milestone for the feature.

We can always expand into the area selection domain after that milestone is reached, but if we throw the kitchen sink at this feature now and try to support everything, we're far more likely to end up with inconsistent behaviors, special cases, and unnecessary complexity.

That's the plan, anyway!

Thank you for letting us know and sharing the plan with us. Personally, I feel relieved to hear that implementing this feature does not mean that you give up on expanding into the area selection domain in the future. The plan sounds good and logical to me! Go for it!

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by amagalma

Thank you for letting us know and sharing the plan with us. Personally, I feel relieved to hear that implementing this feature does not mean that you give up on expanding into the area selection domain in the future. Sounds good and logical to me! Go for it!

Agreed! Thank you dear Schwa for letting us know What a relief knowing that the idea for expanding Razor edit, after it's being finished, to a fully featured area selection is not abandoned!
Thank you!

[mccrabney]

+1 goodvibes, that makes sense to me. thanks for the update.

this all makes me particularly glad that, to date, the only user who uses the software that i've cobbled together is...me. and i remain my own harshest critic.

[Shootkin]

Fine! Now I can forget completely about this most necessary feature for editing and work in the clumsy old fashioned way with the TS. By the way, why is it so important to keep the Time selection intact?

Personally, I do not believe that Area selection will ever be fully implemented. We already have abandoned Articulations, have a half-baked Automation items and the list goes on and on and on. Sorry for being too emotional.

[BirdBird]

Originally Posted by schwa

We are thinking about it this way: moving, copying, and stretching areas is one domain of behaviors -- call these razor edit behaviors. Manipulating objects (media items and envelope points) within a range is a different domain of behaviors -- call these area selection behaviors. Given that razor edits currently don't support *any* area selection behaviors, focusing on the razor edit domain gives us a useful intermediate milestone for the feature.

We can always expand into the area selection domain after that milestone is reached, but if we throw the kitchen sink at this feature now and try to support everything, we're far more likely to end up with inconsistent behaviors, special cases, and unnecessary complexity.

That's the plan, anyway!

Could we get scripting API for Razor Edit in that case? With that scripters can already get to work and start implementing "area selection" behaviours.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by BirdBird

Could we get scripting API for Razor Edit in that case? With that scripters can already get to work and start implementing "area selection" behaviours.

This is scary because it often puts the nail in the coffin of getting these things natively

[ferropop]

Anyone see value in "Create Area/Razor Selection at Cursor"?

Example: Want to perfectly cut out a snare -- so Tab to Transient, run "Create Area/Razor Selection at Cursor" and it would create one (bar/grid length?) exactly at the Transient location. Resize the endpoint to your liking - perfect sample-creation workflow.

Currently it's not possible to do this, have to create a split - which leads to sometimes accidentally splitting the entire project's items at the time ruler.

[Mercado_Negro]

Originally Posted by schwa

We've had a lot of internal discussion about this. The purpose of renaming area selection to razor edit is to create a coherent mental model for what this feature does, and to specifically remove the user expectation that this feature behaves similarly to project time selections.

We are thinking about it this way: moving, copying, and stretching areas is one domain of behaviors -- call these razor edit behaviors. Manipulating objects (media items and envelope points) within a range is a different domain of behaviors -- call these area selection behaviors. Given that razor edits currently don't support *any* area selection behaviors, focusing on the razor edit domain gives us a useful intermediate milestone for the feature.

We can always expand into the area selection domain after that milestone is reached, but if we throw the kitchen sink at this feature now and try to support everything, we're far more likely to end up with inconsistent behaviors, special cases, and unnecessary complexity.

That's the plan, anyway!

Thanks for the insights, Schwa. Sounds good!

I presume you are doing this to avoid unnecessary complexities in the future when another feature or development that touches these areas shows up but PLEASE don't stop there at "razor edit".

[Icchan]

@schwa, you're going to get very confused and very angry mob at you.. (i'm not threatening, just stating the most obvious thing that's going to happen... people are like that.)

I mean I get it since I read the pre-release forums and I decided to read this thread fully after the thing was renamed, but most will never do that and I hope you'll find a way to communicate this to users... maybe Kenny could make a video on what it is and how it works and you can put that on to the official release as a guide so people aren't confused and that leads to anger.

Yeah, many of the tools you're developing for this feature are back end for the AS, but many people don't understand that, we're not all software engineers here

Let's hope it goes well...

[planetnine]

Hang on, these are development alphas for testing, in a prerelease area of the forum and I think we should treat them as such.

I know full AI would make everyone happy, but this has got to be integrated into REAPER in a compatible way and I presume it’s going to take some time and development blind alleys.

I think we’re getting carried away again...


>

[bolgwrad]

Thumbs up from me, esp. for the GUI improvements; there's now no doubt what mode you're in, and what it's going to do.

Mouse modifiers: Personally I stick with L'drag TS, R'drag Item select, and Alt+R'drag for RE. Shift+Alt/R'drag for compound RE boxes.

I disabled R'drag RE because otherwise you always have to start Item selection within an item, which is tricky at wide zooms.

I've also assigned 'Win+Esc' to 'clear RE', as using the mouse to click away from a RE box is a bit inconvenient, unless I'm missing something. Alt+Esc would be better but Windows says no, for now.

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by schwa

We've had a lot of internal discussion about this. The purpose of renaming area selection to razor edit is to create a coherent mental model for what this feature does, and to specifically remove the user expectation that this feature behaves similarly to project time selections.

We are thinking about it this way: moving, copying, and stretching areas is one domain of behaviors -- call these razor edit behaviors. Manipulating objects (media items and envelope points) within a range is a different domain of behaviors -- call these area selection behaviors. Given that razor edits currently don't support *any* area selection behaviors, focusing on the razor edit domain gives us a useful intermediate milestone for the feature.

We can always expand into the area selection domain after that milestone is reached, but if we throw the kitchen sink at this feature now and try to support everything, we're far more likely to end up with inconsistent behaviors, special cases, and unnecessary complexity.

That's the plan, anyway!

Narrowing the focus like this is understandable, but this is still disappointing to read. I just hope the "We can always expand..." bit gets acted on sooner rather than later.

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Anyone see value in "Create Area/Razor Selection at Cursor"?

Example: Want to perfectly cut out a snare -- so Tab to Transient, run "Create Area/Razor Selection at Cursor" and it would create one (bar/grid length?) exactly at the Transient location. Resize the endpoint to your liking - perfect sample-creation workflow.

Currently it's not possible to do this, have to create a split - which leads to sometimes accidentally splitting the entire project's items at the time ruler.

Yeah, in general actions for creating and adjusting razor selections instead of having to rely solely on mouse drags would be very nice. I often use keyboard shortcuts to set the start and end points of my time selection and would like to be able to do the same with razor, as it's much more accurate/precise. This could a little tricky with multiple selections since start and end would become a little ambiguous if there's more than one selection, but I'm sure a smart solution could be worked out.

[n997]

A request for new settings to facilitate Razor Edit selections via Left Drag:


a) Preferences/Appearance/Media: Always draw media item buttons within the item

This is to allow reserving item label area for Razor Edit selections,
when
"Draw labels above the item, rather than within the item" and
"When drawn above media items, treat item label area the same as empty track space"
are enabled.


and/or:

b) Preferences/Appearance Empty track area above items: X px

This is to allow reserving a few pixels above items for Razor Edit selections.

[sonictim]

I humbly submit a request for the following Actions or Mouse Modifier Options (or hopefully both)


Move Razor Edit Left Edge to Edit Cursor
Copy Razor Edit Left Edge to Edit Cursor
Move Razor Edit Right Edge to Edit Cursor
Copy Razor Edit Right Edge to Edit Cursor


I believe they are very much in line with the new proposed direction/theory/philosophy of this tool

Thank you!

[buckman]

Now this looks promising after years of campaingning for Area Selection!

Sorry guys, but been away from Reaper for a couple of years now, as this was missing, and found alternatives, but always had a massive love for Reaper and its power (just not its programming and setting up side!)

So without being rude, i am trying to catch up with all the posts on what seems to be called 'razor edits'?

So is it Area Selection with moving items on the grid, plus cut, copy like Ableton does in its arrange view, or is it true Area Selection like PT whereby you can edit audio on the timeline like an editor without the split, glue, consolidate etc?

Apologies as just catching up with it all, but exciting!

[bolgwrad]

If you create a custom action as follows:

Item: Select all items on selected tracks in current time selection
Item: Split items at time selection
Razor Edit: Enclose media Items

You get a rough idea of how quick and easy 'Convert TS to RE' would be.

[xackley]

noob request.
I just did my first razor select.
When I right clicked on the area I was hoping for a context menu that was razor specific.
Instead it showed me the huge Item context menu and zapped my selection.
At the least I would think right click would not remove the area select.

Thank you
Don

[daniellumertz]

Originally Posted by xackley

noob request.
I just did my first razor select.
When I right clicked on the area I was hoping for a context menu that was razor specific.
Instead it showed me the huge Item context menu and zapped my selection.
At the least I would think right click would not remove the area select.

Thank you
Don

Good request !

[Edgemeal]

Is Razor Edit supposed to obey the 'trim content behind AI rule'?
Or does RE always replace the target areas when moving items?

Win10, 0826 build,