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Old 01-24-2020, 10:17 AM   #1
airon
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Default Some VST3 plugins not controllable via Midi/Csurf

==EDIT== Post #5 has a list of plugins that cannot be controlled via midi-learn or CSURFs. This has been an issue for over FIVE YEARS gentlemen. Something must be up here.
====================================

Reaper 5 and 6 x64 Windows 7 - 10 x64

Waves v9 to v12 VST 3 versions of Waves plugins, tested up to todays version of Waves.

Problem
Any communication from Reaper to the plugins via midi-learned controls or envelopes does not work when TRANSPORT is in STOP mode.

This does not affect non-Waves plugins that I've tested, such as Klanghelm offerings such as the DC1A3.
Reproduce
  • Create a track
  • Instantiate any VST3(!) plugin by Waves such as Renaissance Compressor (Rcomp)
  • Make sure adding envelopes in writing modes in prefs/automation is on.
  • Put the track in to Latch or Latch Preview mode
  • Open the plugin GUI
  • Move one control, which is all it takes to illustrate this. An envelope should pop up.
  • Make a significant change and write that to the envelope with the "Automation: Write current values for actively-writing envelopes to time selection" command.
  • Change automation mode to READ
  • Relocate the play cursor so different values are read for that parameter you changed. Don't hit play. Just relocate the playhead.
  • The GUI should show no changes, on any Waves VST3 plugin you try.
Other effects
If you show the parameter as an on-track-panel control, the midi-learn and envelopes do change the parameter THERE, but not in the plugin itself if transport stop mode. No changes are reflected there.
Conclusions ?
Reaper is supposed to update all parameters on playhead relocation.

VST2+Waves with simple playhead relocation work fine.

All VST3 plugins that I've tried are fine, except those by Waves. VST3 + Waves playhead relocation does not work.

If this is a systemic problem on Waves' side, I'd rather you tell them than some unknown schmuck like me. They officially support VST3 in Reaper for their plugins. I do kinda hope it's a Reaper bug, as that'll get fixed much quicker .
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Last edited by airon; 11-23-2020 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 01-24-2020, 10:59 AM   #2
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this looks like a REAPER-vst3 issue in general, or at least a very similar thing occurs with AI

refer to https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=230200
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Old 11-13-2020, 09:01 AM   #3
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Aaaand it's an ongoing issue.

The same applies to v12 of the plugins I tested.

MIDI-LEARN controls work on VST versions of Waves plugins, they do not work on VST3.

This as of v6.15 x64 Windows 10 Pro x64. It has been an ongoing issue since 2016. See this thread.
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Old 11-15-2020, 02:20 PM   #4
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Is this not an issue with Reaper, but with Waves ?

Justin , Schwa ?

This issue sabotages general controllability with any CSURF(including CSI) and midi-learned controls. The Waves VST3 x64 on Windows x64 don't accept control messages it seems.

If possible, please clarify whether this is a Waves issue or not.

The plugins I tested are up to date and this issue has been ongoing for over four years now(v9 - v12). This mostly concerns the Renaissance plugins, but it's the same for all the newer stuff like the Abbey Road Saturator or those distortion plugins. It's the reason I never use VST3 plugins from Waves but always the VST version.

Fabfilter VST3 plugins control fine for example. That's why I suspect Waves is messing up. But without word from you they might not concern themselves with this issue.
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Old 11-23-2020, 03:59 PM   #5
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v6.16 of Reaper, this is still an issue with Waves VST3 plugins on Windows 10 Pro x64.

This time I tried all my other plugins as well. ENVELOPES still work though, and that is REALLY strange.

Here's the list of plugins and manufacturer where Reaper apparently is not able to excert control over parameters of these VST3 plugins. VST2 plugins always work.

Waves
All of them. All the fucking VST3 plugins.
McDSP
6050 Ultimate Channelstrip (v6.6.0.1), Futzbox (v6.6.0.1)
Hornet
Autogain, SW34EQ, Trackshaper. The LU Meter for example works fine.
Exponential Audio
Stratus, Excalibur
DMG Audio
EQuality, EQuick, TrackControl
TDR
Slick EQ M
BOZ Digital Labs
Bark of Dog
Maybe others can add to this, but this seems to be something specific that either all those manufacturers are doing wrong, or that Reaper is somehow handling the wrong way.

Here are some manufacturers that have everything working or Reaper handles well, as far as I can tell.

Klanghelm, Valhalla DSP, Harrison AVA range, Plugin Alliance, Voxengo, BABY Audio, Izotope, Arturia, Softube, Toneboosters, Audio Damage.

I hope that helps to narrow it down a bit.
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Last edited by airon; 11-23-2020 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 11-24-2020, 07:56 AM   #6
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I've sent my reaper.ini and reaper-fxlearn files to support.

A fresh install of 6.16 revealed that everything in fact does work, so something is up with my installation.

Oh dear. Hopefully I didn't go overboard on extensions. CSI didn't seem to be the culprit, as this affected devices CSI has no influence over, and which are being used by Reaper all the time.
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Old 12-07-2020, 01:43 PM   #7
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Ok, I've narrowed it down to all the files saved as "Configuration" in the config save list.

That means
  • reaper-fxlearn.ini
  • reaper-fxlearn_extended.ini
  • reaper-fxtags.ini
  • reaper-hwoutfx.ini
  • reaper-jsfx.ini
  • reaper-midihw.ini
  • reaper-mouse.ini
  • reaper-recentfx.ini
  • reaper-screensets.ini
  • reaper-vstplugins64.ini
  • reaper-vstshells64.ini
  • REAPER-wndpos.ini
  • REAPER.ini

I determined this by importing my old complete config in to a fresh install. Leaving out the configuration at the top of the import list made the midi-learn for VST3 plugins from WAVES (and other problem plugins) work again.

I rebuilt my "config" stuff fairly easily by exporting some goodies from a portable install with the old config(keyboard,toolbars,etc.), but oh boy are there some traps, options I had almost forgotten. Such as the f&*^#@!! "bottom half of media item inaccessible if track is less than X pixes high". So many options man.

The investigation continues.
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Old 04-25-2021, 02:53 PM   #8
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Some fresh intel on this issue.

Reaper needs to be in playback for some VST3 plugins to be tunable via midi-learned controls.

No playback, no changes via midi-learned controls. But only on some plugins.

Izotope Stratus is an interesting one in this regard. The GUI won't even display changes unless activate playback. Just relocating the playhead/edit cursor did nothing, unlike all VST2 plugins and most other VST3 plugins. This got me quite upset as it seemed as if everything was bugging out on me. It certainly shaved off some confidence in Reaper automation, until I discovered that playback was necessary. VST3 seems a weird mix of nice features(request number of channels to process) and apparent fuckups.
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Old 04-25-2021, 10:09 PM   #9
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AFAIU, Other that VST2, VST3 provides means for sample accurate Parameter Modulation. Hence there is a tighter integration between transferring DAW parameters and audio.

Seemingly there is some implementation flaw with those plugins....
-Michael
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