Noob question about latency.

[Nizhny Tagil]

Originally Posted by zeekat

Did you experiment with WASAPI mode? Wasn't very stable in my case, but apparenty some people get okay results.

17m at lowest buffer is pretty lousy indeed. You could add it to the latency thread for posterity, hope the DB is still updated. IMO it should be stickied and updated forever, there's never enough info about it, manufacturers hate sharing this information for some reason.

I have no idea how I managed to record with the buffer at 128 in XP. I didn't test the latency at the time, but it must have been even worse.

I honestly don't know what WASAPI mode is. Do you mean using WASAPI instead of ASIO?
Anyway, with Asio4All the latency has indeed decreased, but not 100% stable either. Some dropouts.

I didn't bother testing at different buffer sizes. I'll try to remember adding the results when I do.
I suspect there are few interfaces at this price range really capable of doing their job. This is the second one for me.
But are those numbers consistent with every computer? I hope that not everyone using the same model is getting a latency that bad.

[zeekat]

Yep I meant WASAPI instead of ASIO.

Originally Posted by Nizhny Tagil

But are those numbers consistent with every computer? I hope that not everyone using the same model is getting a latency that bad.

ASIO latency numbers should be fixed in drivers, same on all computers I think. How well computer handles them is another story. I migrated from the exact quad you have to Skylake i5 and low settings in my interfaces are much safer now(crackles only on extremely low settings, no noisily crashing driver anymore etc.). It's not neccesarily bound to processor performance (q9550 is still a decent one really), more with vendor not bothering with optimizing drivers.

Lowly POD GX might be among cheapest ways of having guaranteed low latency monitoring for amp sim'd guitar. This guy measured it and it's very nice 6.8ms while using standalone POD farm app. Altough aside of that, GX is not much of an interface.

[Nizhny Tagil]

Originally Posted by zeekat

Yep I meant WASAPI instead of ASIO.



ASIO latency numbers should be fixed in drivers, same on all computers I think. How well computer handles them is another story. I migrated from the exact quad you have to Skylake i5 and low settings in my interfaces are much safer now(crackles only on extremely low settings, no noisily crashing driver anymore etc.). It's not neccesarily bound to processor performance (q9550 is still a decent one really), more with vendor not bothering with optimizing drivers.

Lowly POD GX might be among cheapest ways of having guaranteed low latency monitoring for amp sim'd guitar. This guy measured it and it's very nice 6.8ms while using standalone POD farm app. Altough aside of that, GX is not much of an interface.

Thank you for clarifying; I've never thought of using WASAPI, I guess I can try that too.
I've kept an eye on the performance meter while doing all this testing (while actually playing, not during the loopback tests) and it didn't seem like my CPU was running out of juice.
It looks like I need a better interface or a cheap distortion pedal, undecided.
I don't want to sound melodramatic but sometimes I wonder when does home recording stop being a neverending story of troubleshooting&tweaking and starts being actually enjoyable!

EDIT: thanks for that page you linked, it's quite comprehensive.

[zeekat]

Originally Posted by Nizhny Tagil

I don't want to sound melodramatic but sometimes I wonder when does home recording stop being a neverending story of troubleshooting&tweaking and starts being actually enjoyable!

Isn't that fun, all the meandering among shitty DRMs, drivers that might or might not be properly working on your particular machine and glaring technical flaws that somehow never got detected in equipment's "professional reviews".

But with all that we're getting things done, still it's miles easier than putting together a cheap home studio couple decades back I guess.

edit: cheap distorion pedal monitored directly might make things offputing, who would want to play their guitar through horrible fizzy noise. Cheapest digital modelling processor for monitoring would be better, like mentioned old POD, Digitech RP, Zoom G-something etc. Used ones are probably worth next to nothing now.

[Nizhny Tagil]

Originally Posted by zeekat

edit: cheap distorion pedal monitored directly might make things offputing, who would want to play their guitar through horrible fizzy noise. Cheapest digital modelling processor for monitoring would be better, like mentioned old POD, Digitech RP, Zoom G-something etc. Used ones are probably worth next to nothing now.

I'm afraid you're right: latency vs. fizzyness, I don't know if that's a solution.

Those Line6 PODs seem to meet my specs software-wise (I use WinXP and 10 in dual-boot, not easy to find hardware that supports both), but I can't figure out how it works for recording with a mic; the GX doesn't even have a mic input. Is there some sort of direct monitoring for that too?
Plus, I imagine MIDI latency would be terrible.
I'm doing some research but I can't seem to understand how these things work.

[zeekat]

Originally Posted by Nizhny Tagil

I'm afraid you're right: latency vs. fizzyness, I don't know if that's a solution.

Those Line6 PODs seem to meet my specs software-wise (I use WinXP and 10 in dual-boot, not easy to find hardware that supports both), but I can't figure out how it works for recording with a mic; the GX doesn't even have a mic input. Is there some sort of direct monitoring for that too?
Plus, I imagine MIDI latency would be terrible.
I'm doing some research but I can't seem to understand how these things work.

Bigger POD interfaces (UX something) have powered mic preamps, and POD farm app has some "clean preamp", "tube preamp" or whatever setting for that, so you can still benefit from fast monitoring. As for MIDI, yeah, latency will be limited by ASIO performance, which is kinda meh (driver doesn't even have buffer setting below 128 and the 128 isn't exactly class-leading here).

I suppose it would be perfectly possible for them to just write fast ASIO driver (after all they managed to write that low-latency system into the POD farm app no problem), they just wanted to stand out with their quirky recording system

[Nizhny Tagil]

Originally Posted by zeekat

Bigger POD interfaces (UX something) have powered mic preamps, and POD farm app has some "clean preamp", "tube preamp" or whatever setting for that, so you can still benefit from fast monitoring. As for MIDI, yeah, latency will be limited by ASIO performance, which is kinda meh (driver doesn't even have buffer setting below 128 and the 128 isn't exactly class-leading here).

I suppose it would be perfectly possible for them to just write fast ASIO driver (after all they managed to write that low-latency system into the POD farm app no problem), they just wanted to stand out with their quirky recording system

I record MIDI from time to time, so I guess my only option is a fully featured interface, then.
What a drag.

Thanks to everybody so far, anyway. At least using Asio4All I can get by for a while.

[insub]

First of all, you're interface's drivers are not compatible with Windows 10, according to Lexicon. You should be happy that it works at all and are stable at that.

Secondly, the 17 ms he's reporting is for round-trip latency. Reaper is reporting 5.6 ms. So, in and out alone is accounting for 11.2 ms which is creeping into noticeable by most people. I'm guessing the additional 6 ms are coming from the JS FX, namely the cab simulator, that he's trying to monitor through. So, I think that Reaper is correctly reporting the actual latency of the interface. And, Nizhny even states that the recorded audio is in-time.

Honestly, if you want to monitor live through virtual FX then you're just going to have to get a more respectable interface that comes with better drivers. Lexicon interface drivers are generally not well respected. RME is VERY highly regarded. From experience, I highly recommend MOTU as well. I have Firewire units from them over a decade old that are still supported under the latest driver.

I can't stand latency either. That's why I've always used hardware synths and real amps. I'm just now getting to be able to accept VSTi. But, the latency for them is only one-way. I can still tell it's delayed, even at 6-7 ms. But, the delay is not enough to mess with my playing or timing. I still NEVER monitor audio recording through Reaper or VST FX, only direct monitoring for me.

[Nizhny Tagil]

Originally Posted by insub

First of all, you're interface's drivers are not compatible with Windows 10, according to Lexicon. You should be happy that it works at all and are stable at that.

Secondly, the 17 ms he's reporting is for round-trip latency. Reaper is reporting 5.6 ms. So, in and out alone is accounting for 11.2 ms which is creeping into noticeable by most people. I'm guessing the additional 6 ms are coming from the JS FX, namely the cab simulator, that he's trying to monitor through. So, I think that Reaper is correctly reporting the actual latency of the interface. And, Nizhny even states that the recorded audio is in-time.

Honestly, if you want to monitor live through virtual FX then you're just going to have to get a more respectable interface that comes with better drivers. Lexicon interface drivers are generally not well respected. RME is VERY highly regarded. From experience, I highly recommend MOTU as well. I have Firewire units from them over a decade old that are still supported under the latest driver.

I can't stand latency either. That's why I've always used hardware synths and real amps. I'm just now getting to be able to accept VSTi. But, the latency for them is only one-way. I can still tell it's delayed, even at 6-7 ms. But, the delay is not enough to mess with my playing or timing. I still NEVER monitor audio recording through Reaper or VST FX, only direct monitoring for me.

I think there's been a misunderstanding.
I got those 17 ms when doing the loopback test; therefore, without monitoring through any plugins whatsoever. So, using the original drivers, 17 ms (more or less) is the real latency to take into account.

The recorded audio is in-time because it's been shifted back by Reaper, latency-compensated. That's not the problem, the problem is monitoring latency.

About Windows 10 compatibity: I've been told by Lexicon's support that the device should work in Windows 10 and I believe Microsoft said that if some hardware worked under Windows 8/8.1 it also should under 10; therefore I thought that wasn't a problem.
Besides, as of my experience, many devices (including audio interfaces) still don't have updated drivers specifically for Windows 10.

I think you're right about that, I should get a more respectable interface to monitor through software; but honestly, it seems like many people are getting good results with ampsims and budget audio interfaces, so I don't see the need to break the bank.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by insub

First of all, you're interface's drivers are not compatible with Windows 10, according to Lexicon. You should be happy that it works at all and are stable at that.

Originally Posted by Nizhny Tagil

About Windows 10 compatibity: I've been told by Lexicon's support that the device should work in Windows 10 and I believe Microsoft said that if some hardware worked under Windows 8/8.1 it also should under 10; therefore I thought that wasn't a problem.

All supported means or rather doesn't mean, that it isn't compatible as in it won't work, but rather they are not willing to invest time in it as an FYI. From my light checks, they were never very good drivers to begin with so you can likely call OS version differences a wash - they are just crappy drivers across the board.

This is why I tend to lean towards manufacturers who specialize in sound cards because everyone else is just trying to ride the sound card gravy train which usually ends up being rebranded internals and or half/class-compliant drivers just so they can slap their brand on it and create an additional revenue stream - as opposed to someone like RME who lives and breathes soundcards including writing whatever special code they need to make things efficient.

[insub]

Originally Posted by Nizhny Tagil

I think there's been a misunderstanding.
I got those 17 ms when doing the loopback test; therefore, without monitoring through any plugins whatsoever. So, using the original drivers, 17 ms (more or less) is the real latency to take into account.

The recorded audio is in-time because it's been shifted back by Reaper, latency-compensated. That's not the problem, the problem is monitoring latency.

About Windows 10 compatibity: I've been told by Lexicon's support that the device should work in Windows 10 and I believe Microsoft said that if some hardware worked under Windows 8/8.1 it also should under 10; therefore I thought that wasn't a problem.
Besides, as of my experience, many devices (including audio interfaces) still don't have updated drivers specifically for Windows 10.

I think you're right about that, I should get a more respectable interface to monitor through software; but honestly, it seems like many people are getting good results with ampsims and budget audio interfaces, so I don't see the need to break the bank.

So, you have the click on a track. Route it to an output and record it directly back in. And, the new recording is 17 ms later than the original?

That is round-trip latency. ADC & DAC both add latency. The buffer is used in both directions. This is a good article explaining.
http://www.presonus.com/community/Le...-Audio-Latency

The fact that your recordings are unaffected proves that Reaper is calculating the correct latency. If you're really saying that the monitored sound is 34 ms late then that is simply unplayable.

Lexicon drivers have been notoriously horrid. And, most of the budget interfaces have drivers that are hit-or-miss when it comes to latency performance which is why I recommended RME & MOTU. Both are known performers.

I picked up a used MOTU Audio Express for $250. Yes, twice the cost of a new budget interface, but also twice the features. This unit is (or was within the last year) still in production. It's USB 2.0 & FireWire 1394. So, if MOTU's track record holds true. I will still be using this unit for 10 more years with updated drivers all along the way. Just like I've been doing with the MOTU 828 mkII that I've had since around 2005. It still works like a champ, but my work laptop doesn't have a 1394 port on it.

Budget interfaces are notorious for have their support dropped when either a new model is released or a new version of Windows/OSX comes out. Be wary, because some have no drivers at all. Particularly when you see "Class Compliant" on the box. Alesis interfaces refer you to ASIO4ALL on their support page, for instance.

If you see me around on here you'll know I'm never one to suggest "breaking the bank". I'm a freeware and budget mic champion and I always try to make budget conscious recommendations. But, specifically what you desire is best achieved with high-quality drivers that typically only come with a high-quality interface. And, this is especially true when considering the longevity of the device's usefulness, or rather, the longevity of its support lifespan.

How much was the Alpha when it was new? How long ago was that? And, here you are already having outgrown its performance capability regardless of the fact that Lexicon still hasn't released an official Windows 10 driver after more than a year. And, this for the most extensively public beta tested OS in Windows history which was given away as a free upgrade from Windows 7. Meaning that more people have migrated to Window 10 and faster than probably any previous Windows version.

My point is... had you bought a MOTU with the money spent on the Alpha then we would not be having this discussion at all. I know it's a hard pill to swallow. But, sometimes you really do get what you pay for. And, this holds very true for budget interfaces. Yes, they're great and perform admirably, but their drivers are typically sub-par to professional interfaces and their support lifecycle is as well.

You could buy a Pod XT and a budget interface. Or, you could purchase a high-quality interface for little more & monitor through the plugins you want to record with. Or, you could buy a real amplifier and a pedalboard full of effects with a SM57 for a WHOLE LOT MORE. It just depends on how you want to work, what your situation, and most importantly what your budget is.

Perhaps the POD Studio UX2 interface is a good option for you. It offers "ToneDirect" monitoring and has as many inputs/outputs as your Alpha. It's $200 USD new. Keep in mind that there's a high probability that it will be discontinued within 5 yrs.

[Nizhny Tagil]

Originally Posted by insub

So, you have the click on a track. Route it to an output and record it directly back in. And, the new recording is 17 ms later than the original?

That is round-trip latency. ADC & DAC both add latency. The buffer is used in both directions. This is a good article explaining.
http://www.presonus.com/community/Le...-Audio-Latency

The fact that your recordings are unaffected proves that Reaper is calculating the correct latency. If you're really saying that the monitored sound is 34 ms late then that is simply unplayable.

Lexicon drivers have been notoriously horrid. And, most of the budget interfaces have drivers that are hit-or-miss when it comes to latency performance which is why I recommended RME & MOTU. Both are known performers.

I picked up a used MOTU Audio Express for $250. Yes, twice the cost of a new budget interface, but also twice the features. This unit is (or was within the last year) still in production. It's USB 2.0 & FireWire 1394. So, if MOTU's track record holds true. I will still be using this unit for 10 more years with updated drivers all along the way. Just like I've been doing with the MOTU 828 mkII that I've had since around 2005. It still works like a champ, but my work laptop doesn't have a 1394 port on it.

Budget interfaces are notorious for have their support dropped when either a new model is released or a new version of Windows/OSX comes out. Be wary, because some have no drivers at all. Particularly when you see "Class Compliant" on the box. Alesis interfaces refer you to ASIO4ALL on their support page, for instance.

If you see me around on here you'll know I'm never one to suggest "breaking the bank". I'm a freeware and budget mic champion and I always try to make budget conscious recommendations. But, specifically what you desire is best achieved with high-quality drivers that typically only come with a high-quality interface. And, this is especially true when considering the longevity of the device's usefulness, or rather, the longevity of its support lifespan.

How much was the Alpha when it was new? How long ago was that? And, here you are already having outgrown its performance capability regardless of the fact that Lexicon still hasn't released an official Windows 10 driver after more than a year. And, this for the most extensively public beta tested OS in Windows history which was given away as a free upgrade from Windows 7. Meaning that more people have migrated to Window 10 and faster than probably any previous Windows version.

My point is... had you bought a MOTU with the money spent on the Alpha then we would not be having this discussion at all. I know it's a hard pill to swallow. But, sometimes you really do get what you pay for. And, this holds very true for budget interfaces. Yes, they're great and perform admirably, but their drivers are typically sub-par to professional interfaces and their support lifecycle is as well.

You could buy a Pod XT and a budget interface. Or, you could purchase a high-quality interface for little more & monitor through the plugins you want to record with. Or, you could buy a real amplifier and a pedalboard full of effects with a SM57 for a WHOLE LOT MORE. It just depends on how you want to work, what your situation, and most importantly what your budget is.

Perhaps the POD Studio UX2 interface is a good option for you. It offers "ToneDirect" monitoring and has as many inputs/outputs as your Alpha. It's $200 USD new. Keep in mind that there's a high probability that it will be discontinued within 5 yrs.

Again, you got it wrong. I think I'm not explaining myself well; please bear with me, my English isn't perfect.

I exactly did what you describe: that is what I've called a loopback test. I've recorded a click source from the output of the interface into the input and then measured the gap between the original source and the new recording. Result: around 17 ms. I did that for all buffer sizes.

For normal recordings, Reaper obviously calculates the latency according to what the drivers display or whatever value you put in and shifts back the audio accordingly, so there's no problem with the recorded audio being in time AFTER it's been recorded. The problem is during the recording, while monitoring what I'm physically playing.
I don't mean to be rude, but everybody so far understood what I meant with that, so maybe you didn't read carefully!

As for the rest, I hear you. From what I've read around, RME and Motu are the best brands and I'll consider saving up for one of those.
It's just hard not to believe the hype, when you read around all the reviews and opinions of people getting the job done with budget hardware.

[insub]

I think we're on the same page. I wasn't trying to be rude either. I know I tend to come off that way. Sorry.

Reaper reports: 5.6/5.6 ms
I'm pretty sure that's input/output latency.

When you record, you are only goin in. 5.6 ms
But, when you monitor through software you have to go in and out. 5.6 ms in then 5.6 ms out too, plus any processing required by the CPU for plugins.

Humans are generally unaffected by less than 10 ms for playing music. But, 17 ms is 70% longer than that. So, definitely you will be affected.

On the other hand, when you use hardware direct monitoring the interface routes the analog signal at the input directly to the output so that there is no latency. But, you can't do any in-the-box processing to the signal this way.

To use VST/JS effects in monitoring then you must use software monitoring. Which requires the input latency to get the signal in, then processes it, then is affected by the output latency to get to your speaker monitors.

Essentially, you need latency that's more like 3 ms, one-way, for software monitoring through FX. This is quite simply unobtainable by your current interface. Most likely due to cheap drivers. If you decide on a budget interface (<$300 USD new) just make certain that they have dedicated drivers already available for Windows 10. Preferably, one that claims <3 ms performance.

Have you tried adjusting the settings in section 6.14 of the REAPER Manual?
Allow Live FX Multiprocessing
Anticipative FX Processing

If these settings can reduce your 6 ms of processing time then perhaps it will be useable then. But, I doubt you used any FX during your latency test, so those settings probably won't help much. May be worth a try anyway. It is likely that once you go through your monitoring FX that your latency is even higher than the 17 ms you received during the test.

[Nizhny Tagil]

Originally Posted by insub

I think we're on the same page. I wasn't trying to be rude either. I know I tend to come off that way. Sorry.

Reaper reports: 5.6/5.6 ms
I'm pretty sure that's input/output latency.

When you record, you are only goin in. 5.6 ms
But, when you monitor through software you have to go in and out. 5.6 ms in then 5.6 ms out too, plus any processing required by the CPU for plugins.

Humans are generally unaffected by less than 10 ms for playing music. But, 17 ms is 70% longer than that. So, definitely you will be affected.

On the other hand, when you use hardware direct monitoring the interface routes the analog signal at the input directly to the output so that there is no latency. But, you can't do any in-the-box processing to the signal this way.

To use VST/JS effects in monitoring then you must use software monitoring. Which requires the input latency to get the signal in, then processes it, then is affected by the output latency to get to your speaker monitors.

Essentially, you need latency that's more like 3 ms, one-way, for software monitoring through FX. This is quite simply unobtainable by your current interface. Most likely due to cheap drivers. If you decide on a budget interface (<$300 USD new) just make certain that they have dedicated drivers already available for Windows 10. Preferably, one that claims <3 ms performance.

Have you tried adjusting the settings in section 6.14 of the REAPER Manual?
Allow Live FX Multiprocessing
Anticipative FX Processing

If these settings can reduce your 6 ms of processing time then perhaps it will be useable then. But, I doubt you used any FX during your latency test, so those settings probably won't help much. May be worth a try anyway. It is likely that once you go through your monitoring FX that your latency is even higher than the 17 ms you received during the test.

No problem, in fact I do appreciate your interest.

As I've said earlier in the thread, I've tried Asio4All instead of the original drivers and I can get to 10 ms with those. It's a major improvement, at least for the stuff I have to play, but of course it could be better.

I didn't try those options you mention but I can try. The JS effects I've used for monitoring have a very low CPU usage. I've looked at the bottom of the FX chain where Reaper displays CPU usage and additional latency for plugins in use and there was little of the former and none of the latter. I don't know if it's reliable, but usually Reaper displays it correctly when a plugin adds latency.

The problem with RME and Motu, from what I see and besides the mental pricing, is that they offer a lot of features that I don't need (Firewire, more then 1 x mic/instrument/line input etc.). Besides, I was looking at some specs and their life circle seems to be pretty much that of other interfaces (in terms of OS compatibility and such). Maybe it's just my impression but I think they're more suited for pros or hardcore producers.

[zeekat]

New Zoom (UAC2) interface seems to have crazy low latencies, there's also a 2nd generation Scarlett 2i2 with unfucked guitar input and very improved latency as well. Both MUCH cheaper than RME and according to internet very usable. So, assuming you have a way to return them to the store if drivers turn out to be useless, things start to get brighter

[Nizhny Tagil]

Originally Posted by zeekat

New Zoom (UAC2) interface seems to have crazy low latencies, there's also a 2nd generation Scarlett 2i2 with unfucked guitar input and very improved latency as well. Both MUCH cheaper than RME and according to internet very usable. So, assuming you have a way to return them to the store if drivers turn out to be useless, things start to get brighter

Since we're on the subject, may I ask something?
As I've mentioned, I have a dual-boot system with Windows 10 and XP, even though I use almost esclusively 10 for audio and keep XP around just for old videogames.
Obviously, it's very hard to find an interface with drivers supported from XP to 10.
Is there a workaround to this? Suppose I get the new gen Scarlett; for example could I use Asio4All for XP and the proper drivers for 10?
That's mostly just to save me the hassle of re-enabling the onboard soundcard, unplug the interface and re-plug speakers/headphones and whatnot.

I understand it's a little unconventional requirement, but maybe some of you have experience with this sort of things.

[xaverle]

Hi,
in our practise room we have a computer running xp, at home i'm using win 7...
in both machines the same soundcard.
guess what? RME Multiface each 12 years old, first class drivers from xp to win 10.
After wasting time and money with several m audio, terratec,tascam,emu and so on cards,these RME 's are really a no brainer for me..they got that often promised " plug and play"...
used they are not that expensive, the only drawback they have is the fact they don't force you to write anything about latency ;-)

greetz
alex

[zeekat]

Originally Posted by Nizhny Tagil

Since we're on the subject, may I ask something?
As I've mentioned, I have a dual-boot system with Windows 10 and XP, even though I use almost esclusively 10 for audio and keep XP around just for old videogames.
Obviously, it's very hard to find an interface with drivers supported from XP to 10.
Is there a workaround to this? Suppose I get the new gen Scarlett; for example could I use Asio4All for XP and the proper drivers for 10?
That's mostly just to save me the hassle of re-enabling the onboard soundcard, unplug the interface and re-plug speakers/headphones and whatnot.

I understand it's a little unconventional requirement, but maybe some of you have experience with this sort of things.

"The Focusrite USB 2.0 driver for the Scarlett 2i2 and Scarlett 2i4 should work fine on Windows XP however this operating system is no longer in our test procedure, therefore it is not officially supported" says the focusrite website. It's been a while since I used the XP, but maybe it has some generic USB audio driver that makes average USB audio device work in daily windows stuff like games without external drivers?