does it help in any way to buy studio monitors

[4x4uk]

Originally Posted by bladerunner

I couldn't believe the difference it made - I suddenly was able to hear A) very clearly where things are in the stereo field - left to right B) a much better sense of 3d space - front to back C) a separation (especially to the low end) to everything that just wasn't there before. All these things suddenly made it much easier - and much more fun - to mix.

^^^^^^this, i wrestled with my mixes for ages trying to get that right using pc speakers a decent set of headphones, bouncing stuff to cds listening in the car and all that.

yes it can be done but when you have sound treatment and a half decent set of speakers that your used to boy is it so much easier

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by evosilica

Just take a look at some measurements of untreated rooms. Frequency response and waterfall plot. Compare this to a Frequency plot of even cheap monitors. Draw your conclusions.

I drew mine, treated my room and all I regret is that I haven't done it 10y earlier.

So true. You can add mics and preamps to that comparison-list as well.

Btw: I just recently did acoustic treatment of my monitor-spot. Before that I could almost not use my monitors at all, at least not for anything regarding eq-decissions. Now, the stereo-imaging is 200%better, much better definition and more details. What a relief.
Still problematic bass, as my room is sort of crap. I'll do some measurement and see how bad it is.

[read]

I'm only interested for treating a room for mixing purposes. Is there a good specific guidance only for mixing

[ivansc]

As well as the section on acoustics on Gearslutz, Ethan Winer has some useful and informative stuff on his site.
However don't take any of this stuff as gospel.
Acoustics IS a science but there is a fair amount of art mixed in there too.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by ivansc

As well as the section on acoustics on Gearslutz, Ethan Winer has some useful and informative stuff on his site.
However don't take any of this stuff as gospel.
Acoustics IS a science but there is a fair amount of art mixed in there too.

I think the hardest part of soundproofing it primarily just getting started.

Digging into all the great info out there concerning the matter is a good first step, however, much of the info is technical and difficult to understand, especially in a layman's terms. I think Ethan Winer comes pretty close for the layman and has some pretty good information, however I must confess, I haven't read anything of his in a long time, so there might be better info out there.

On top of that, the cost can be prohibitive unless the person has the tools and knowhow to build things.

Still the advantages for soundproofing cannot be understated.

Maybe just get about 10 sheets of 701 fiberglass (2'x4'x2"), put each one in a large garbage bag, and experiment hanging them or setting them in various places around the room. If you do a little research it'll give ideas on how to experiment and where to place things.

[ivansc]

Tod - one piece of advice that I read and followed in the early days was to just stack a roll/slab of rockwool in the corner still in is plastic wrapper. Even THAT made a difference in my little room!

Frankly anything rather than see folks just buy the foam eggcrate solution and think they are getting VFM. Or something that is really effective for that matter.
I bought a cheap behringer "measurement" condenser mic on ebay for £15 used and shot my room with room eq wizard. Results were horrifying, but with just moving my mix position and a bookcase full of stuff I improved it.

Maybe we should be telling people to get a mic and Room EQ Wizard first?

Even cheaper than buying rockwool and a lot less work!

[Tod]

Originally Posted by ivansc

Tod - one piece of advice that I read and followed in the early days was to just stack a roll/slab of rockwool in the corner still in is plastic wrapper. Even THAT made a difference in my little room!

Aah yes, same thing with rolls of fiberglass insulation. Not only does it provide some good bulk corner absorption but rolls of fiberglass are packed pretty tight making it quite dense.

I bought a cheap behringer "measurement" condenser mic on ebay for £15 used and shot my room with room eq wizard. Results were horrifying, but with just moving my mix position and a bookcase full of stuff I improved it.

Maybe we should be telling people to get a mic and Room EQ Wizard first?

Even cheaper than buying rockwool and a lot less work!

Actually to do it right, one goes with the other, "mic & Room EQ Wizard", and the "sound proofing material". But yeah, which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

[read]

can you graphically show some results of a professional mixing room of well known studio and your home results?

i mean how close do you get to a professional environment? can you show this graphically to get an idea...

[Tod]

It's been many many years since I built my studio and shot my room.

I no longer have the mic I need, however, one of my amplifiers went down on me and as soon as I replace it I'll probably get an Omni along with some of the free software available for measurements.

I built my latest control room back in the late 70s, it has no parallel walls or surfaces and it's already acoustically sound.

The only reason to get the Omni is to recalibrate my system which is bi-amped.

I just did a quick google and found the link below at gearslutz. It's old but shows some of the tools that are needed.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/stud...acoustics.html

That was the first one I checked, there are a lot more you can check out.

[read]

Originally Posted by Tod

It's been many many years since I built my studio and shot my room.

I no longer have the mic I need, however, one of my amplifiers went down on me and as soon as I replace it I'll probably get an Omni along with some of the free software available for measurements.

I built my latest control room back in the late 70s, it has no parallel walls or surfaces and it's already acoustically sound.

The only reason to get the Omni is to recalibrate my system which is bi-amped.

I just did a quick google and found the link below at gearslutz. It's old but shows some of the tools that are needed.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/stud...acoustics.html

That was the first one I checked, there are a lot more you can check out.

whole science :/ damn must be taking a long time to get familiar with all that!

last question...

if my audio files will only be heard in people's laptops or computer speakers where there's no acoustic treatment in their houses either...

seems like a waste of time for me to get it all right...only to be heard different at their end?...

so maybe i'm fine without acoustic treatment after all

[DVDdoug]

But yeah, which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

Measure first.

You wanna' make a race car faster, what's the first thing you do? You check the current speed. Then you make some changes and check the speed again. The stopwatch doesn't make the car faster but you'll never win the Indy 500 without one.

I'm only interested for treating a room for mixing purposes. Is there a good specific guidance only for mixing

It's pretty much the same as recording except soundproofing isn't as critical.

Except sometimes when recording you want a "nice sounding" room instead of a dead room. But, most homes don't have a nice sounding music hall so the ideal home recording space is usually dead.

i mean how close do you get to a professional environment?

How much money do you have?

[DVDdoug]

if my audio files will only be heard in people's laptops or computer speakers where there's no acoustic treatment in their houses either...

seems like a waste of time for me to get it all right...only to be heard different at their end?...

so maybe i'm fine without acoustic treatment after all

If all of your listeners have crap equipment, I guess it doesn't matter.

Every playback system sounds different. The idea is to make a recording that sounds it's best on a variety of playback systems, and you certainly don't want it to sound bad on a high-end system. The only way to do that is with accurate monitoring (and a lot of experience).

A lot of hits in the 50's & 60's were recorded (and mixed) in less than perfect studios (Sun, Chess, Hitsville, Abby Road...). When "that sound" became famous, you'd want to record at Sun if wanted to sound like Elvis and you'd want to record at Abby Road if you wanted to sound like The Beatles.

Today, playback systems are better and listeners expect better quality. Today, a song like Hound Dog would be considered "demo quality" and it would never be released or played on the radio.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by read

whole science :/ damn must be taking a long time to get familiar with all that!

last question...

if my audio files will only be heard in people's laptops or computer speakers where there's no acoustic treatment in their houses either...

seems like a waste of time for me to get it all right...only to be heard different at their end?...

so maybe i'm fine without acoustic treatment after all

Heh heh, if that's all you want then I wouldn't be concerned about it.

However, I don't think I've ever known a musician or audio engineer who didn't take pride in what they do and strive for the best.

I might add, not everybody seriously listens to their music on laptops, there's actually some half decent small cheap monitor systems out there today.

[read]

Originally Posted by Tod

I might add, not everybody seriously listens to their music on laptops, there's actually some half decent small cheap monitor systems out there today.

yes but still their room is untreated for acoustic purposes? it will come out different on their side if its not treated right?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by read

yes but still their room is untreated for acoustic purposes? it will come out different on their side if its not treated right?

Yes, different for you, if your were there, but not different for them because they're probably used to the room by now.

And I have every reason to believe, they can probably tell a well mixed sound from a poor mixed sound.

Regardless of what you play back on, a good mix will most likely sound better than a poor mix.

[bladerunner]

Originally Posted by read

if my audio files will only be heard in people's laptops or computer speakers where there's no acoustic treatment in their houses either...

seems like a waste of time for me to get it all right...only to be heard different at their end?...

so maybe i'm fine without acoustic treatment after all

The whole point of mixing and mastering (if you intend your music to be heard by other people) is, ideally, to create something that will sound great on any playback system (to speak of the technical side of mixing and mastering rather than the artistic). The easiest way to do this is to create a fairly 'neutral' mixing environment so that it has a fairly even distribution of frequencies and to do lots and lots of listening in that environment (a neutral sounding room will - in a nutshell - invariably involve some acoustic treatment to stop sound bouncing around the walls and good monitor speakers) to 'calibrate' your ears to it. This room then becomes your reference point - to allow you to make judgements and subsequent decisions that will, with time and experience, result in mixes that should sound great wherever they are played.

[Guitarminator]

Too lazy to read.

If not already mentioned, reference tracks are your friend.

[Guitarminator]

Originally Posted by read

I'm only interested for treating a room for mixing purposes. Is there a good specific guidance only for mixing

Auralex will do a free evaluation of your room for you. No purchase necessary.
Check their website for details. Not perfect but a good starting point.

These guys sell similar material only cheaper.

http://www.foambymail.com/acoustical-foam-products.html

[citizenkeith]

I recommend this book... not only are there some great information about mixing, but the first couple chapters deals specifically with room treatments and speaker types.
http://www.amazon.com/Mixing-Secrets...dp/0240815807/

[ivansc]

Originally Posted by Guitarminator

Auralex will do a free evaluation of your room for you. No purchase necessary.
Check their website for details. Not perfect but a good starting point.

http://www.foambymail.com/acoustical-foam-products.html

Auralex's "evaluation" consisted of some guy emailing me saying I should buy their XXX kit install it and see how that went.
Complete waste of time.

And foam kits for diy treatment are just not going to hack it.
Every foam installation I have ever heard wound up sounding excessively bassy because the foam mostly attenuated the highs and high mids without having much effect on the low mids and lows.
Foam is OK if used for what it CAN do, but not as a blanket fixemup.

[Guitarminator]

Originally Posted by ivansc

Auralex's "evaluation" consisted of some guy emailing me saying I should buy their XXX kit install it and see how that went.
Complete waste of time.

And foam kits for diy treatment are just not going to hack it.
Every foam installation I have ever heard wound up sounding excessively bassy because the foam mostly attenuated the highs and high mids without having much effect on the low mids and lows.
Foam is OK if used for what it CAN do, but not as a blanket fixemup.

My experience with Auralex was different. I sent a diagram of room dimensions and construction materials with furniture and equipment locations and received back a detailed diagram of, as close to optimum rearrangement of everything, without on site analysis, in the room along with a recommendation of placement of foam, bass traps and other materials designed for the full spectrum from highs to lows.
Far from a waste of time. Especially considering it's free with no obligation to purchase anything.

Perhaps they've improved since your experience.

Here's a link to the so called "Personalized Room Analysis Form". Quite extensive: http://www.auralex.com/praf/

[ivansc]

That is exactly the form I completed. Maybe it is a UK staff vs USA staff thing? Who knows - glad your experience was better than mine.

[bladerunner]

I think foam is fine for first reflection points. I definitely wouldn't use it over rockwool for bass traps though.

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by read

whole science :/ damn must be taking a long time to get familiar with all that!

last question...

if my audio files will only be heard in people's laptops or computer speakers where there's no acoustic treatment in their houses either...

seems like a waste of time for me to get it all right...only to be heard different at their end?...

so maybe i'm fine without acoustic treatment after all

Imagine you're a painter.
Then your room is lighted with disco-lights in all colors. And your wearing eye-glasses that's not been cleaned for two years. You can still paint. But chances are that when you see the final picture in neutral light without glasses, you'll find it horribel.

[grinder]

"I'm only interested for treating a room for mixing purposes. Is there a good specific guidance only for mixing "

Looking for a quick fix Read?
The old adage still applies "If you ain't been there how can you have an objective opinion?"
Well we know in life some folks do inherently know how to do something but that said there is a reason people treat their rooms and it is not just because of advertizing!

Grinder

https://soundcloud.com/steve-maitland-1
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevemaitland