Old 07-19-2019, 11:16 AM   #41
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I merely suggest we fast forward (hah) to the point where you make the change and/or make it an option.
That's not how this works. This isn't a situation where both sides dig their heels in till someone 'wins'. But if you want to turn it into one, okay...

No. Never.




See? Pointless and not at all satisfying.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:20 AM   #42
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^It would be helpful at minimum. I'll ask again, where's the thread where tthis particular convention-breaking change deserves a wider audience and feedback.
Again, there is no such convention. What is it you want next to Play? Pause or Stop? And if the answer is 'both', how do you suggest I respond to the people who had legitimate concerns with V5, where that's exactly what I did?

I don't get to pretend there's a simple answer to this. But if you want to help me, and please do that would be great, then you can't either.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:22 AM   #43
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Okay, I've created Feature request for it:
FR: Set Transport layout from its right-click menu
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:22 AM   #44
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That's not how this works. This isn't a situation where both sides dig their heels in till someone 'wins'. But if you want to turn it into one, okay...

No. Never.




See? Pointless and not at all satisfying.

You want to turn down a win-win?
I don't think so! (In the long run)


again - I look forward to thanking you for the trad transport options you will spend time making for us, or someone else will do.
so it's certainly not about winning for me as it's already a certainty.

Just trying to save you some hassle as you are now experiencing. If it take months, am easy.

Option 1: Begin getting over the instinctive reaction to push-back, and realise this one ends with stop and play on the main transport being neighbours.

Option2: be angry for a while on the internet and maybe in the kitchen

.. then do option 1.



Nothing more to add made my request and point. So good luck playing with folk less polite than I - theme work ain't a walk in the park that's for sure.

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Old 07-19-2019, 11:27 AM   #45
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We can make some (2 or 3) "default" layouts, which White Tie would add to his theme. I hope he will agree.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:28 AM   #46
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That's not how this works. This isn't a situation where both sides dig their heels in till someone 'wins'
So what would you suggest for the best way of dealing with things that are in fact feature requests? I'm guessing Justin and Schwa aren't paying a lot of attention to threads like this. But for example, Vitalkers suggestion of being able to change layouts by right-clicking is an excellent one. Where would you suggest we post those?

Obviously you don't feel you can address them and that they add noise to the channel, but there should be a home for them. Perhaps another thread in the pre-release section? I don't think putting them in the normal Feature Requests section would be beneficial/helpful especially since this is still in Alpha and has a long way to go.

As per the ME and Arrange transports being different, keep in mind that a lot of us keep the Midi Editor open at all times on another screen, so having two transports that look different is really, really awkward. We are not doing anything different transport wise in the ME then we are in the Arrange page so the expectation is they would match. Just some feedback from the heavy ME users' side of things.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:28 AM   #47
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The definition of convention is "A way in which something is usually done, especially within a particular area or activity." - Am I not seeing stop (including above/below) play in the vast majority of these or I'm I overlooking something? - honest question for the discussion.

https://www.google.com/search?q=midi...mGeXmhvizTWZM:

https://www.google.com/search?q=4-tr...w=1280&bih=628

It would be helpful IMHO to stay closer to that "non-convention".
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:29 AM   #48
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This hardly classifies as 'hassle' for me. I have to have multi-hour design meetings in stuffy rooms. In this weather. Imagine the smell.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:31 AM   #49
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I not seeing stop beside play in the vast majority of these or I'm I overlooking something?
Do you mean stop, or pause? Is it the icon that's important, or its function?
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:33 AM   #50
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This hardly classifies as 'hassle' for me. I have to have multi-hour design meetings in stuffy rooms. In this weather. Imagine the smell.
Hah.
I get the impression forum user feedback on themes is akin to hot pokers in the eye..


One more thing (columbo style)

Perhaps we can nail down the importance of mousing pause first here as it seems very important to your Masonic style meetings ( ) yet I personally never user pause, at all - so am curious. that should make stop a little easier to address.
..
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:37 AM   #51
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Do you mean stop, or pause? Is it the icon that's important, or its function?
Stop. I've pretty much always had stop right beside play. I suppose it would bother me less if stop weren't "over there" /and/ smaller since hitting stop tends to be more of a potential emergency than the other buttons - meaning something went terribly wrong, hit stop now. Yes, they could just hit space but if we (loose use of we) are designing the transport in the GUI, it make sense that we do so as if it were the only method such as the times when I and others only have a touch screen available (just my 2 cents).

If I have to, I'll just change the rtconfig if that's what it takes but a lot of people aren't geeky like me and would have more issues with that than I would, again 2 cents.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:39 AM   #52
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Okay, but stop on a tape recorder is pause on Reaper.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:45 AM   #53
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No it isn't. Pause will pause the playback where you are. Stop will return to the starting position.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:47 AM   #54
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Okay, but stop on a tape recorder is pause on Reaper.
Yes and no, if I'm recording and press stop on a tape recorder, record and/or play disengages entirely (it also doesn't instantly rewind to zero because it can't), pause in reaper is literally pausing, which is what pause does and has a specific use. Some tape recorders also have a pause button for similar reasons. So playback stops occurring when pause is pressed but isn't actually "stopping" for lack of a better term. Hope that makes sense.
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Old 07-19-2019, 12:37 PM   #55
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I think ego is getting in the way into something that could be very simple.

People will always complain about change, and people will always complain about something that doesn't change.

Want to make it simple? Keep the original idea, and add "Legacy/V5 transport layout" .

Or you guys can simply use the V5 theme when Reaper 6 arrives. People did that when Reaper 5 came, and that's ok. Some good soul will mod the theme (A lot of people use different themes anyway, and the idea behind V6 theme is to make it simple to mod).

Move on
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Old 07-19-2019, 12:38 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie;2159659.



As a fellow Brit, perhaps you will understand the clarification that this is the character my work attitude is sometimes compared to by my colleagues:



Did you just try to threaten me?
Oh I love tucker. It's on like fat Pat's thong.

No I'm warning you of predicted outcomes!
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Old 07-19-2019, 01:14 PM   #57
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For the life of me, I'll never understand why people think the best way to show that they should be taken seriously regarding their design choices or opinions is by demonstrating their lack of social and persuasive skills.

Watch this:

I respectfully disagree with changing the order of the transport buttons.

Was that hard? Less to read. Less to ignore and still respect the author.

Please. Value your time and the person who has to read it and assign it value. It's better for everyone.

Also, I have no opinion on transport buttons. I had no idea people actually hit them with a mouse as opposed to using them as indicators to what was going on.

I'm sorry. Let me re-phrase that so that everyone understands:

What kind of unprofessional idiot uses a mouse to hit buttons on the transport? Do you realize how inefficient and amateur that is?

How did I do?
Oh, yeah? I'm not a pro, not even a musician, actually, but I've never used Ctl-R to start recording. I use the mouse. And, you Easterners still talk funny.
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Old 07-19-2019, 01:18 PM   #58
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I don't know if this pertains to anything but just wanted to point out that Play and Record have always been next to each other on tape recorders because it was required that you held down Play while you hit Record to punch in. Because undo wasn't really an option and you didn't want to accidentally go into record by banging into the button. Now that we have unlimited undo and everything is digital anyway, you can punch in by just hitting Record. So the need for having them next to each other is based on a situation that no longer exists. But I have no preference in this decision.
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Old 07-19-2019, 01:19 PM   #59
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^It would be helpful at minimum. I'll ask again, where's the thread where this was originally discussed? If it was private, I'll lend some respect to design by democracy being a mess but this particular convention-breaking change deserves a wider audience and feedback.
I don't think there was a thread. I was presuming it was WT's beta testers.
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Old 07-19-2019, 01:21 PM   #60
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I don't know if this pertains to anything but just wanted to point out that Play and Record have always been next to each other on tape recorders because it was required that you held down Play while you hit Record to punch in. Because undo wasn't really an option. Now that we have unlimited undo and everything is digital anyway, you can punch in by just hitting Record. So the need for having them next to each other is based on a situation that no longer exists. But I have no preference in this decision.
I thought it was the opposite, hold record then press play just to record period no maybe I have it backwards? Actually I think you are right.. or press record then transport would flash until you pressed play to start recording, or... it's already playing, and you just press record to engage/punch but could be forgetting... but in the screenshot I saw, I thought the question was stop being beside play which is what I was showing in the picture searches.
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Old 07-19-2019, 01:36 PM   #61
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Stop & Play are twins, Record is babysitter - near the twins. Pause is the cat - somewhere in the room
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Old 07-19-2019, 01:41 PM   #62
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Okay, but stop on a tape recorder is pause on Reaper.
I'd say that the function of pause is the same for both. The "transport" is still running in both cases.

The function of stop is a bit different in REAPER, and works more like the function of stop on a CD player.
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Old 07-19-2019, 01:44 PM   #63
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a bit different in REAPER, and works more like the function of stop on a CD player.
Yea, that's due to the random access feature of digital. I didn't go much into it because it would be easy to get off topic that reaper always "rewinds" when you click stop with no real option to change it - unless I overlooked which is possible.
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Old 07-19-2019, 01:57 PM   #64
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If you go on a picture tour of tape deck’s and reel machine’s transport sections I think you’ll find all sorts of different arrangements, even on devices of the same brand.

I don’t care how this will turn out, just wanted to point out that there isn’t really a convention or tradition for transport layouts, so I find it a bit weird that some make such a biggie out of it.
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Old 07-19-2019, 01:57 PM   #65
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There's also the probability factor of needing to hit stop.

It's one of the most common things, and tied to both playing and recording.

And when you need to hit stop, what's happening? Playback! The green play button is lit, your eye is drawn to what is active in order to deactivate it.

----
Idea
-----


Maybe the transport play button should flip to a stop button on playback/recording - bit more 21st century and ties with spacebar play/stop toggle behaviour.

Is that possible without a reaper FR, does it break any other behaviour?

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Old 07-19-2019, 01:58 PM   #66
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If you go on a picture tour of tape deck’s and reel machine’s transport sections I think you’ll find all sorts of different arrangements, even on devices of the same brand.
.
I did just that and posted the results above, I didn't find ^that (play not being adjacent to stop the majority of the time) or I didn't look long enough. Sure, some didn't but of the 50 or so I looked at (analog and controllers) the vast majority was stop adjacent to play. Like I said, I'll just edit the config if I have to but those two as Ben said are usually married.
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Old 07-19-2019, 02:40 PM   #67
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I find a bunch in your search result for 4 track recorders where it’s not so, but not as many as in my search. The difference being that I used DuckDuckGo while you were using google. I guess I have a lot more vintage devices in my front page results while google put recent adverts on top . Which would indicate a tendency to put stop next to play in modern devices, I give you that.
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Old 07-19-2019, 02:40 PM   #68
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I have always thought the loop button is too far away from where my eye is to indicate anything.
I've been using a script that selects a different layout that changes the colour of the actual loop points so they become green in loop mode, red if loop is off, orange when pre-roll is enabled and yellow when both loop and pre-roll are active.
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:04 PM   #69
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I don't know if this pertains to anything but just wanted to point out that Play and Record have always been next to each other on tape recorders because it was required that you held down Play while you hit Record to punch in. Because undo wasn't really an option and you didn't want to accidentally go into record by banging into the button. Now that we have unlimited undo and everything is digital anyway, you can punch in by just hitting Record. So the need for having them next to each other is based on a situation that no longer exists. But I have no preference in this decision.
Good point. But.
There is one thing that strongly separates the real keys and mouse actions. You can put several fingers on the keys and change the play / stop / record without removing your hand from the keys. In the case of virtual buttons, we do not have a tactile sensation and we have only one finger (the mouse cursor), therefore, it is more logical and ergonomic to place frequently used keys alongside. So that elementary operations do not turn into the game "hit the target."
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:12 PM   #70
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it is more logical and ergonomic to place frequently used keys alongside.
Frequently used by who? That's always the problem and the need for easy options to change it.
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Old 07-19-2019, 08:27 PM   #71
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Ha! found a whine! yes sir! (speaking for myself)

So, if I drag and dock the transport to the top and want (docked) toolbars/actions'thingies icons on the side and, need the thing to not waste space on height or width (more than the toolbar icons itself) then I think the vvvery important BPM is missing waaAaay to soon while dragging the toolbar grid thingie to fit/comphy.

Even if I de-select Show playrate control/time signature and all dat, even if it is pretty much dissabled it is locked and fixed not to shink fully and leave, empty space that could be used for my beloved B P M.
Ps, yes, I can tweak this myself, just saying.
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Old 07-20-2019, 01:44 AM   #72
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Frequently used by who? That's always the problem and the need for easy options to change it.
For those who for some reason do not have access to the keyboard, for example.

For clarity: I rarely use these buttons. Almost never. The space bar, R, and W keys cover 99.9% of my requests in transport controls.
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Old 07-20-2019, 02:37 AM   #73
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I use my Faderport for transport control, but it is useful to have the visual feedback in REAPER match what my hand is doing. Every control surface I've looked at has the same transport layout.

Doing a search through old multitrack tape machines, it seems that, from the 70's onwards, it was the Japanese firms that had a different layout, but Studer, MCI etc. go Back-Forward-Stop-Play-Record.
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Old 07-20-2019, 06:27 AM   #74
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Some tape recorders also have a pause button for similar reasons. So playback stops occurring when pause is pressed but isn't actually "stopping" for lack of a better term. Hope that makes sense.
No it doesn't make sense. It also doesn't not make sense. It is unrelated. The idea that all tape machines behave the same is false, no matter how many times someone says it. The idea that Reaper behaves like a tape machine is false, because it doesn't. It just doesn't. People keep saying "tape machines are the only thing that matter, here are what tape machines usually do". They are missing the point that, for people who don't believe that tape machines are the only thing that matter, they think that how they use Reaper is more important.

To reiterate : all I've done is
Put the loop button next to the play button.
As requested.
And tape machines don't have loop buttons.

What I haven't even done is put the pause button next, even though Pause is the button in Reaper that is closest to a straight 'stop', because stop in reaper does Stop+RTZ. So: I dispute the thing you say, and if I didn't it still wouldn't be 100% clear what I should do. Try to picture in your mind how I can possibly form a logical basis for denying the request for a loop button next to play based on any of this, since its an opaque interpretation of something that arguably to some doesn't even apply.

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I don't know if this pertains to anything but just wanted to point out that Play and Record have always been next to each other on tape recorders because it was required that you held down Play while you hit Record to punch in.
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it would be easy to get off topic that reaper always "rewinds" when you click stop
You think that is off topic, I understand. Now please understand that others think differently, so it is simply impossible for me to view this as an open and shut case, where one thing is 'right' and everything else is 'wrong'. Not because I don't want to, but because that's not where the evidence points.

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I have always thought the loop button is too far away from where my eye is to indicate anything.
Yes, and it is that (very common) observation that I am addressing by putting the loop button (which, remember, doesn't exist on tape machines) next to it. I'm on it!

----------

Can I also remind anyone with even a passing awareness of my work that I have absolutely no problem whatsoever in bringing paradigms from the physical recording world into the digital. Just look at how many knobs, needle meters and faders I have drawn over the years. People use the word skeuomorphic (incorrectly) around me a lot. I am always ready to re-purpose learned behaviour to ease functionality on screen, but only when it is legitimate, rather than bollocks. It can very much be argued that this is a case of the latter
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Old 07-20-2019, 06:30 AM   #75
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You keep saying "tape machines are the only thing that matter, here are what tape machines usually do". You are missing the point that, for people who don't believe that tape machines are the only thing that matter, they think that how they use Reaper is more important.
I literally said no such thing. Please retract this false, misquoted and fallacious statement that I did not make. Put the button wherever you want, I don't care anymore. I wash may hands of these discussions and will never suggest or join any of these again.
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Old 07-20-2019, 06:33 AM   #76
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er... Okay. Done.
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Old 07-20-2019, 07:04 AM   #77
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I usually avoid these discussions, but ...

The Transport button arrangement in this new theme threw me for a major WTF loop (see what I did?) that took me all of 15-20 seconds to shake. That's 15-20 seconds of my life I'll never get back.


OTOH, de facto standards matter!


Overall I'm really enjoying the new theme
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Old 07-20-2019, 07:42 AM   #78
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Just to mention, v5 was perfectly fine:
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Last edited by _Stevie_; 07-20-2019 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 07-20-2019, 07:58 AM   #79
Klangfarben
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Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
Just to mention, v5 was perfectly fine:
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with this. AFAIK no new modes or functions were added. And I'm guessing there's a boat load of things you'd much rather be spending time on besides the transport...
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Old 07-20-2019, 08:04 AM   #80
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No it doesn't make sense. It also doesn't not make sense. It is unrelated. The idea that all tape machines behave the same is false, no matter how many times someone says it. The idea that Reaper behaves like a tape machine is false, because it doesn't. It just doesn't. People keep saying "tape machines are the only thing that matter, here are what tape machines usually do". They are missing the point that, for people who don't believe that tape machines are the only thing that matter, they think that how they use Reaper is more important.

To reiterate : all I've done is
Put the loop button next to the play button.
As requested.
And tape machines don't have loop buttons.

What I haven't even done is put the pause button next, even though Pause is the button in Reaper that is closest to a straight 'stop', because stop in reaper does Stop+RTZ. So: I dispute the thing you say, and if I didn't it still wouldn't be 100% clear what I should do. Try to picture in your mind how I can possibly form a logical basis for denying the request for a loop button next to play based on any of this, since its an opaque interpretation of something that arguably to some doesn't even apply.



Not on an Otari it doesn't. You Ampex weirdos sicken me



You think that is off topic, I understand. Now please understand that others think differently, so it is simply impossible for me to view this as an open and shut case, where one thing is 'right' and everything else is 'wrong'. Not because I don't want to, but because that's not where the evidence points.



Yes, and it is that (very common) observation that I am addressing by putting the loop button (which, remember, doesn't exist on tape machines) next to it. I'm on it!

----------

Can I also remind anyone with even a passing awareness of my work that I have absolutely no problem whatsoever in bringing paradigms from the physical recording world into the digital. Just look at how many knobs, needle meters and faders I have drawn over the years. People use the word skeuomorphic (incorrectly) around me a lot. I am always ready to re-purpose learned behaviour to ease functionality on screen, but only when it is legitimate, rather than bollocks. It can very much be argued that this is a case of the latter
I agree that how tape machines operate is by-the-by, except for how those controls have shaped transport button conventions which have been retained to this day in the shape of DAW control surfaces.

I don't look at my control surface when I use the transport controls on it, but I do look at the transport in REAPER for visual confirmation and cues. Having them in the same order just makes sense.

I've yet to find a control surface that doesn't have buttons in the order of back>forward>stop>play>record, even if occasionally the back and forward buttons are above the stop, play and record buttons.

We can argue about the merits of keeping the conventions of defunct technology til we're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that anyone using a control surface's transport buttons will have to learn one order for their fingers and another for their eyes.
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