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Old 08-08-2010, 08:21 AM   #1
Reflected
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Default Reaper's MIDI Editor needs more improvements urgently.

No offese really, usually I praise this DAW in every possible place and time ...but it really has the WORST midi editor I've ever used...

As much as I tried and actually successed to get used to reaper's midi editor, it still feels like very bad and uninspiring experience:

- Mouse sensitivity needs urgent attention. (see illustration in the quote below..) (very hard to get used to the current sensitivity, it feels defective especially vs velocities...)

- No gridline per octave. EDIT: Gridline per octave Done @ v3.67pre5 - August 11 2010 !

- erase tool needed . (see FL, Sonar..)EDIT: DONE @ v4!

- velocity curve tool. (see cubase, S1..)

- Pitch and other CC modulation will be much easier to control with better precision as envelopes instead of CC events.

- better graphic alignment...(lots of missing potential)

- Scrub vs Time selection conflict at the timeruler (each should get its own mouse area, the mouse area for time selection is way too big while the selection graphic is very thin)

- No Mouse zone editor (mouse customization extremely needed..) (Almost done @ v4)

- many other small things...


I already convinced lots of people to use reaper, but I can't say anything good/impressive about the midi editor... when it comes to the midi editor, all the other daws have much better GUI to offer...

if you take a look @ studio one for example, on the very first try I could control the midi editor like I used it for years (easy, smooth and inspiring)...same with FLstudio, Sonar and the rest...

only in reaper it feels like walking with uncomfortable shoes that don't fit to human foots...

the more I try to get used to it, the more I find it to be defective/tiresome...


the good news, those are ver basic things, that probably don't cost a lot of time to fix/make better.

the bad news, it didn't happen yet, and I probably gonna have another week or month or year with this tiresome midi editor...


ps- i can compose with this midi editor, just like I can walk and even dance with bad shoes.

I can do it, but it won't be fun at all! it feels like bother instead of fun!




----

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Originally Posted by Reflected View Post
take a look at this stickyyyy annoying unpredictable sensitivity:
[img]http://img685.**************/img685/3374/80126906.gif[/img]



now take a look at a clever sesitivity:

How does it work:

If there are no other notes around a note (1 cm right and left to it) , the cc event will recieve message from 1cm left and right to it.

1 cm is the maximum distance to control the cc event not matter if there are no events far than this....

1c Left 1c Right
------ | ------

if there are notes around it (less than 1 cm), then the control area will be reallocated proportionally equally...


FR here: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=2866

[img]http://img31.**************/img31/1766/ccfl.gif[/img]
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Thanks devs for adding the abillity to use single click to change a single velocity And single right click to remove a single note without dragging.
much appreciated.

Last edited by Reflected; 08-26-2011 at 05:17 AM. Reason: Title changed: member petition
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Old 08-08-2010, 08:27 AM   #2
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Here we go, Reflected's monthly cryout post!
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Old 08-08-2010, 08:34 AM   #3
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Here we go, Reflected's monthly cryout post!
no squeek, no grease!
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Old 08-08-2010, 08:56 AM   #4
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- No erase tool

- No velocity tools

I'm so glad Reaper will never use tools.
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Old 08-08-2010, 09:12 AM   #5
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Here we go, Reflected's monthly cryout post!
what true is true but there is level of truthness..

the higher truth which is "Reaper's midi editor still the WORST compare to all the daws I know" take the lower truth which is "Reflected's monthly cryout post".

the fact that I almost cry just make it more true!
stick to the true!
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Thanks devs for adding the abillity to use single click to change a single velocity And single right click to remove a single note without dragging.
much appreciated.
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Old 08-08-2010, 09:16 AM   #6
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I think you OP is a load of bollox for the most part of it...

so much for 'truth'
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Old 08-08-2010, 09:29 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Reflected View Post
- bad mouse sensitivity. (very hard to get used to it, it feels defective especially vs velocities...

- No gridline per octave ?! wt*... is it that hard to had such a basic helper??? it is one of the most basic things in a midi editor graphics...

- No erase tool

- No velocity tools

- and bad (missing potential) graphic alignment...
Wouldn't these be better off as feature requests with a discussion thread demonstrating the pros and cons etc?

I respectfully disagree that REAPER has the worst MIDI editor. Try Pro Tools, specifically the 5.x, 6.x and 7.x eras...and yes, even version 8.x.

Shane
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Old 08-08-2010, 09:34 AM   #8
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As a newbie to Reaper and someone who has only occasional need for MIDI, I can't imagine how it could be easier to use; really..
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Old 08-08-2010, 09:35 AM   #9
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Erase: Double click or lasso/filter and delete
Velocity: Drag the horizontal bar in the note... works when multiple notes are lassoed... OR Draw in lane.

I don't see how this is lacking functionality especially considering Reaper is designed as a tool-less work flow. Asking for tools is like asking for a clutch pedal on an automatic. It has no place.

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on the very first try I could control the midi editor like I used it for years
I dare not say Reaper doesn't have room to improve in the MIDI department, but it sure sounds like you need to learn how to use Reaper rather than Reaper learn to be used by you. (Eurythmics anyone?)
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Old 08-08-2010, 09:37 AM   #10
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He's probably asking for swipe-delete action through a modifier.

Pretty much the same behavior when you Alt+right-click drag the CCs and they get deleted, but for notes. This could (and should) be done as an extension of the property "Alt+right mouse drag marquee selects CC events, right mouse drag deletes" - only "CC events" should be renamed to "MIDI events".


And about velocity tools, I think he meant on a clever randomizer of some sorts, probably the kind which FL Studio has
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Old 08-08-2010, 09:43 AM   #11
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Then he shoulda said that.
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Old 08-08-2010, 09:48 AM   #12
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Discussion of Reaper's midi, (generally speaking, not trying paint with a broad brush as there are exceptions) more often than not, becomes an exercise in rationalization.

There are lots of things that would extend/improve the functionality of Reaper's midi and list editors and most of them have been covered in depth multiple times.
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Old 08-08-2010, 09:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbagump View Post
Velocity: Drag the horizontal bar in the note... works when multiple notes are lassoed... OR Draw in lane.
or you can use actions to increase/decrease by 1 and 10
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:01 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan View Post
Wouldn't these be better off as feature requests with a discussion thread demonstrating the pros and cons etc?

I respectfully disagree REAPER has the worst MIDI editor. Try Pro Tools, specifically the 5.x, 6.x and 7.x eras...and yes, even version 8.x.

Shane
EVEN protools which I never liked has better midi editor these days...which is probably not far from reaper but still more smooth..

you can view/hide and control multiple tracks in the midi editor like in sonar+- which is really useful, very fast workflow...

roundish notes very useful with overlapping notes.

very thin velocities with small cycle on top, much clearer..


there are already FRs, but they just don;t happen quick while they are very basic features...I think it should be on higher priority...
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Thanks devs for adding the abillity to use single click to change a single velocity And single right click to remove a single note without dragging.
much appreciated.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:13 AM   #15
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i have used cubase, logic, reason, fl, live and podium's midi editors extensively and i'm inclined to agree with reflected that reapers in comparison is pretty lacklustre. it has a very unfinished feel to it. i regularly encounter quirky behaviour - ocassional notes not played, ocassionally bar/beat numbers are wrong, glitchy looping now and again, grid snap doesn't always work properly, audio can get glitchy when moving notes around with 'preview notes on add/edit' ticked, midi cc editing is still a major pain to use, the syncing options don't always work properly...

there are more things i can't remember right now and at the end of the day they are pretty minor things - but they do add up to a less than inspiring experience.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:17 AM   #16
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daw midi editors in general pale in comparison to something like the MPC with jjos2xl.

less is more.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:20 AM   #17
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FR's for the list editor...

1. I'd like to be able to reorder the columns in the list editor, that kind of customization is expected in many cases. Developers shouldn't assume that the column order that seems logical to them is best for everyone. That's why many grids like these in various applications have re-order-able columns so you can (cough) "make it whatever you want".

2. There is no column that tells you where the note actually ends, just a reference to length. I would like to see (expect to see) the note end position in bars and beats. Much like with an audio event where you have start, end and length data.

In the key editor you can see it, the note end position. In the list editor it doesn't exist (afaik).

3. You can't (afaict) draw velocity or notes in the list editor.

I'm sure most of those FR's have been made in the past by someone.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:21 AM   #18
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I have tried the following midi editors:

Sonar (older version)
Cubase (v3SL)
Acid
Tracktion
eXt
FLstudio
Reaper
Podium
Samplitude


and I would say the only one better than reaper from this list is FLstudio.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:23 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post

Pretty much the same behavior when you Alt+right-click drag the CCs and they get deleted, but for notes. This could (and should) be done as an extension of the property "Alt+right mouse drag marquee selects CC events, right mouse drag deletes" - only "CC events" should be renamed to "MIDI events".
yes we need this
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:29 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by bladerunner View Post
i have used cubase, logic, reason, fl, live and podium's midi editors extensively and i'm inclined to agree with reflected that reapers in comparison is pretty lacklustre. it has a very unfinished feel to it. i regularly encounter quirky behaviour - ocassional notes not played, ocassionally bar/beat numbers are wrong, glitchy looping now and again, grid snap doesn't always work properly, audio can get glitchy when moving notes around with 'preview notes on add/edit' ticked, midi cc editing is still a major pain to use, the syncing options don't always work properly...

there are more things i can't remember right now and at the end of the day they are pretty minor things - but they do add up to a less than inspiring experience.
Thanks for this useful, honest and detailed input.
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Thanks devs for adding the abillity to use single click to change a single velocity And single right click to remove a single note without dragging.
much appreciated.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:32 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
I have tried the following midi editors:

Sonar (older version)
Cubase (v3SL)
Acid
Tracktion
eXt
FLstudio
Reaper
Podium
Samplitude


and I would say the only one better than reaper from this list is FLstudio.
That's a fair statement. I assume you're talking about the key editor specifically because some of those may have other midi editors that don't exist in Reaper. Cubase SL is at least 5 years old so that's not really a relevant comparison to the current state of midi editing in Cubase, or even the full version at that time in SX3.

A lot of it is subjective of course depending on what a user needs.

I do think at a minimum we have to assume that when people make comparisons they're talking about the latest versions of daw X or Y. Obviously, Cubase has 5 midi editors, at least two of which don't exist at all in Reaper so "better" kinda doesn't fit... with those two.

Last edited by Lawrence; 08-08-2010 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:36 AM   #22
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Cubase SL is at least 5 years old so that's not really a relevant comparison to the current state of midi editing in Cubase, or even the full version at that time in SX3.
which is exactly why i mentioned it. I had tried earlier versions of SX however.
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A lot of it is subjective of course depending on what a user needs.
almost completely

Quote:
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I think at a minimum we have to assume that when people make comparisons they're talking about the latest versions of daw X or Y.
i was only giving my own personal experience, and I pointed that out on purpose.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:37 AM   #23
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i use the editor everyday and love it. im about 80% midi.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:40 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
I have tried the following midi editors:

Sonar (older version)
Cubase (v3SL)
Acid
Tracktion
eXt
FLstudio
Reaper
Podium
Samplitude


and I would say the only one better than reaper from this list is FLstudio.
wow, Cubase MIDI editing is 1208308123 better than Reapers. Hell, Samplitudes is better and it's terrible. FL is specifically written for MIDI editing and although there are cool things in it, as a hole it is a frustrating program to use. I haven't used PT(the MIDI part), eXt or Podium. Logic has some great MIDI editing and MIDI studio management functionality that Reaper doesn't even have a start on yet. Cubase used to have a MIDI studio configuration system up until the VST version, but destroyed it during the SX releases.

Anyhow, I'm with the OP. MIDI editing is very primitive in Reaper. The updates in the 3 series have helped a bunch. There is a significant improvement in just this one major release cycle. So, I'm hopeful that it will continue improving. But to compare it to the Hosts that have focused on MIDI capabilities for years and say it is just as good or better just suggests you have a limited usage or understanding of MIDI editing.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:42 AM   #25
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i was only giving my own personal experience, and I pointed that out on purpose.
Absolutely. Thanks J.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:44 AM   #26
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Quote:
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wow, Cubase MIDI editing is 1208308123 better than Reapers.
nope, its not. Its slow and clunky.
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Originally Posted by jmcecil View Post
Hell, Samplitudes is better and it's terrible.
nah, redraw problems last time i tried

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Originally Posted by jmcecil View Post
FL is specifically written for MIDI editing and although there are cool things in it, as a hole it is a frustrating program to use.
nah, its quite intuitive actually

--- see how long this can go on for?

IT IS!

IT ISNT!

IT IS!



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But to compare it to the Hosts that have focused on MIDI capabilities for years and say it is just as good or better just suggests you have a limited usage or understanding of MIDI editing.
nah, it suggests i have different needs than you
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:44 AM   #27
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Wouldn't these be better off as feature requests with a discussion thread demonstrating the pros and cons etc?

Shane
Totally agree. That midi improvements are needed is common knowledge...and you would be hard pressed to find anyone who's been around long enough to get to know the Cockos team who believes they won't eventually get to it.

I can't help but feel the point of this thread is to be inflammatory and derisive.

Regards,

DB
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:46 AM   #28
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I can't help but feel the point of this thread is to be inflammatory and derisive.
of course it is, look @ who started it
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:47 AM   #29
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nope, its not. Its slow and clunky for the stuff I do with it.
Fixed that for ya.

If anyone really wants to experience "slow and clunky" midi editing I can list some midi editing tasks that would probably literally take you some long minutes in Reaper that can be done in seconds in some of the others. Obviously if you don't need those things it doesn't matter but some people do.

It's not about what's "best", it's about what may be "missing" for some.

But, with "worst" in the thread title it had to go there... ... the battle is on...
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:49 AM   #30
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Yeah, try selecting every other, or every 4th note of the same pitch in Reaper. Aaaaaaarghhhhhhh...
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:49 AM   #31
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Yeah, try selecting every other, or every 4th note of the same pitch in Reaper. Aaaaaaarghhhhhhh...
That would have been one of about 50 similar examples I can describe. Try raising the velocity of any note with a velocity under 20 by +20 or any kind of complex edit like that in a 5 minute two-handed piano track. Make some coffee.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:50 AM   #32
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i have used cubase, logic, reason, fl, live and podium's midi editors extensively and i'm inclined to agree with reflected that reapers in comparison is pretty lacklustre. it has a very unfinished feel to it. i regularly encounter quirky behaviour - ocassional notes not played, ocassionally bar/beat numbers are wrong, glitchy looping now and again, grid snap doesn't always work properly, audio can get glitchy when moving notes around with 'preview notes on add/edit' ticked, midi cc editing is still a major pain to use, the syncing options don't always work properly...

there are more things i can't remember right now and at the end of the day they are pretty minor things - but they do add up to a less than inspiring experience.
I agree with this, but I think the same goes for the rest of Reaper - it still somehow feels and bit 'hacked' and unfinished - strange glitches, unexpected behaviour, quirky graphics, etc

- but on the other hand there are so many great functions which other MIDI-editors lacking which renders Reflected's sentiment that Reaper had the worst MIDI editor of all 10%% ridiculous.

Yes, there are a few glitches and stuff - potentially severely annoying and perhaps even a huge pita - but come on - let's keep some sanity...
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:52 AM   #33
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Try raising the velocity of any note with a velocity under 20 by +20 or any kind of complex edit like that. Make some coffee.
Actually you can filter all events by velocity amount, this is not a problem to do in Reaper.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:54 AM   #34
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It would be a waste of time. But, I could spend days making little videos of the dozens of things you can do in Cubase MIDI editing that can't be done in Reaper at all. I can't think of a single thing in Reapers MIDI capability that isn't doable in Cubase, most with less clicks and configuration swapping.

Things like holding keys during step input to gradually lengthen notes by note quantize. Auto wwing snap to audio tempo maps. MIDI keyboard editor control mapping. Grid templates. Configurable drum maps. Again, I could go on and on and on..........
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:54 AM   #35
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Actually you can filter all events by velocity amount, this is not a problem to do in Reaper.
Not the way I meant, with additional parameters but, yeah, bad example the way I worded that, but I think you know what I mean.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:56 AM   #36
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I agree with this, but I think the same goes for the rest of Reaper - it still somehow feels and bit 'hacked' and unfinished - strange glitches, unexpected behaviour, quirky graphics, etc
The comment about Samps MIDI editor graphics issues was funny as Reapers are pretty much about where Samp was in version 9.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:57 AM   #37
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Fixed that for ya.

If anyone really wants to experience "slow and clunky" midi editing I can list some midi editing tasks that would probably literally take you some long minutes in Reaper that can be done in seconds in some of the others. Obviously if you don't need those things it doesn't matter but some people do.

It's not about what's "best", it's about what may be "missing" for some.

But, with "worst" in the thread title it had to go there... ... the battle is on...
well you have to read the rest of my post to understand where i was coming from...
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:57 AM   #38
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It would be a waste of time. But, I could spend days making little videos of the dozens of things you can do in Cubase MIDI editing that can't be done in Reaper at all. I can't think of a single thing in Reapers MIDI capability that isn't doable in Cubase, most with less clicks and configuration swapping.

Things like holding keys during step input to gradually lengthen notes by note quantize. Auto wwing snap to audio tempo maps. MIDI keyboard editor control mapping. Grid templates. Configurable drum maps. Again, I could go on and on and on..........
and yet still ill write a part faster in reaper or FL studio faster for my workflow any day, like an instrument, not sibelius
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:58 AM   #39
bladerunner
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I agree with this, but I think the same goes for the rest of Reaper - it still somehow feels and bit 'hacked' and unfinished - strange glitches, unexpected behaviour, quirky graphics, etc
yup, certainly does - but i still love it

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- but on the other hand there are so many great functions which other MIDI-editors lacking which renders Reflected's sentiment that Reaper had the worst MIDI editor of all 10%% ridiculous.
if i'm not having the best time in the studio i can swear blind that reapers is the worst midi editor out there my point being that it is all subjective and down to each individual users needs and subsequent experience. if reflective believes it is the worst editor for him then it is. if i was all about detailed cc editing there's no way in hell i would be using reaper!!

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Originally Posted by jens View Post
Yes, there are a few glitches and stuff - potentially severely annoying and perhaps even a huge pita - but come on - let's keep some sanity...
exactly - i can still get the job done in reaper and for the main part i do.
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Old 08-08-2010, 11:00 AM   #40
Shan
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EVEN protools which I never liked has better midi editor these days...which is probably not far from reaper but still more smooth..
Definitely not. PT has a slew of issues with MIDI and the MIDI editor. If you use both REAPER and PT, you would be very well aware of them.

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you can view/hide and control multiple tracks in the midi editor like in sonar+- which is really useful, very fast workflow...
This was introduced in REAPER a long time ago. There are a few features I feel it still needs, but that's on my FR "to-do" list. That said, this specific issue isn't in your "worst" list above.

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roundish notes very useful with overlapping notes.
There are 2 notes here in PT. Where does the second one start?:



The "rounded" corners on MIDI notes are an aesthetic feature only in my opinion. If there's an actual function to them that would make differentiating notes to the end user in REAPER better, then they should definitely be in there. If it's for aesthetic purposes only with no useful functionality to them, then I wouldn't put such a request under "the worst" list personally.

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very thin velocities with small cycle on top, much clearer..
This comment tells me you dont use MIDI in Pro Tools. They might be much clearer to you, but actually try using them in PT. The actual usability of this style of velocity stock in real world production is very poor. Why? Because you can only adjust these from the top only, which has about a 4 pixel hit point to adjust the velocity level:



In REAPER, you can click anywhere in the velocity stock and adjust it. You cant do this in PT, which makes it very slow with an extremely high margin for error. It might look "prettier", but the functionality and workflow is quite the detriment when you only have a tiny 4 pixel hit point area in order to adjust them up/down. In my opinion, usability and functionality should come first over the "pretty" UI stuff. If both can be applied together, then that's even better.

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there are already FRs, but they just don;t happen quick while they are very basic features...I think it should be on higher priority...
Where are the FR's? The presentation in the original post has no discussion regarding the pros/cons, or even links to the FR's themselves. If you're looking for support and votes etc to make things more of a priority, I personally feel the title of this thread and the presentation of your original post will do quite the opposite.

Some of your requests I agree with, but where do I vote for them and where are the discussion threads so I can read more valuable user feedback on why these are needed etc?

Shane
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