Old 05-26-2019, 04:30 AM   #1
audiotect
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Default Flux Spat revolution - any users?

Hi
I’ve been using Flux Spat Revolution with Reaper for more than a year now, done a major project (and some smaller ones)for a museum (Moesgaard Museum) in Denmark
We had the exhibition running for a year at Moesgaard Museum, Aarhus and now we move the exhibition to the National Museum, Copenhagen (june - september 2019).

The experience has been very problematic, many time-consuming issues.
I think (but don’t know for sure) that most of the issues is related to Spat R.

At the moment I hear nothing from Flux...

So I’m seeking other users of Spat R, preferable ones working with Spat R and Reaper but anyone with experience with Spat R with any DAW are welcome to join in.
I will later today provide information about my main issues and but also workarounds etc.

Best Regards
Søren Bendixen
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Old 05-26-2019, 05:24 AM   #2
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Wow, seems like you'd get support for a $1900 software.
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Old 05-26-2019, 06:18 AM   #3
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Yeah
They have been very helpful - sometimes...
But most of the time i had to wait many weeks for a reply. At the
Moment it’s more than 4 four weeks
And the last time they said they didn’t understand my problem
Reaper and Spat R should work fine..well
As a customer You just feel like; okay then I’m stupid
Okay fine, but tell what i’m doing wrong then..?

/Søren
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Old 05-26-2019, 06:28 AM   #4
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Flux is a "high-end" developer, I would expect more from them.

You're the first person I've seen mention this particular software on this forum.

Good luck, and please let us know what happens.
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Old 05-30-2019, 06:59 PM   #5
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Hi Søren
I can't help you with Spat R sorry, but I did sound design & development on a long running touring installation utilising the original Spat. We ran into many issues and spent much time in workarounds, but got there in the end with dogged persistence. When I saw the Spat R release a feeling swept over me part curiosity and part fear! It's my belief that (among other things) Flux use very unweildy GUI libraries that drag their products down. I would just encourage you to be really polite and assetive with v. good documentation of bugs and demand the support you deserve. Use the time zone to your advantage and get in touch every other day. They are famous for short bursts of communication and then glaciers of complete silence. But early adoptors of this product deserve better. Good luck, and get stuck into them!
Simon

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Old 05-31-2019, 12:22 AM   #6
audiotect
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Hi Simon
wow, what a project you did.
And thanks for your advise.
It´s scary to hear about their customer service, but then they just makes everybody feeling F..ked up, not just me..

I haven´t been rude, but sometimes it gets a bit emotional - you have an exhibition opening - this program can do everything you need - and all the simple things just don´t work.
If it GUI related it even more crazy.

What DAW did you use? - Reaper I guess..
I have several other FLux plug ins like, Syrah, Pure Limiter etc and its fine working.

I´ll keep contacting them (I don´t have time for this game)
but if you are into "live" immersive sound you might know of any other stuff that can do immersive work - not (just) headphones but in real spaces.
I´ve been checking out The sound of the Mountation (https://mntn.rocks/production-suite)
and Sound Trajectory, Nuendo, and are now looking into Pro Tools Ultimate.
None of these programs seems to be able to do what SPAT R. Can do, if just...

A bit of insight in my issues,

Problems arise out of the blue air.
For example: After two weeks of unproblematic work, SPAT R.udden suddenly begins to open sessions where all inputs / sends are disabled. At the same time, it has made a new version of all inputs / sends and outputs - active - that means all routed inputs are dead, I can't do anything but delete them (they can't be reactivated - that feature doesn't exist) and I must re-route all inputs by using the new active inputs / outputs that SPAT R has made. Some times it makes THREE versions of the same.
It is simply the pure madness.

When I reroute, all information goes back to default except those I have programmed / automated in Reaper. Ie my workaround is to automate everything in Reaper. Then maybe it takes only an hour to one and a half to re-establish my session ...

Sync is another problem. The program loses very easy sync. In some cases it is not a problem, in others it is.
You can run a room (ie the area where you make your speaker arrangement) but I need three and then it goes out of sync. and becomes very heavy - which is the third problem that I have to run with crazy high buffersizes for it not to stall.

In addition, there are a lot of minor issues that, have taken a long time to spot, to get done, if possible, workarounds on - document to Flux and then wait for an answer. They have made one update that has helped a little. But for example, they made a "clear shared memory" that had to clear up the problem of double up of inputs (sends / Outputs - does not work.

Søren
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Double ins:outs - routed disabled).jpg (49.4 KB, 162 views)
File Type: jpg Tripple ins:outs).jpg (60.5 KB, 158 views)

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Old 05-31-2019, 01:04 AM   #7
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got a mail from flux support!
They will look into all of it - now..:-)
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Old 05-31-2019, 01:28 AM   #8
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Hey Søren

That's great you got a reply. You just gotta persist in these circumstances, and stay as zen if possible, you know what I mean... I understand the stress of needing something to work day in & out and being derailed by bugs late in the piece. I find most product suitability issues reveal themselves in the first serious experiments. It's the ones that pop up later (like disabled inputs and sync issues you mentioned) that *bone* you!

Thanks for the headsup on Sound Trajectory & Mountation - I will have a serious study of them. Developments in this field grow like bacteria the last few years, it's hard to keep up. Also most high end PA manufacuters are producing their own hardware/software systems which tells you something (major future growth if civilisation holds). The only other system we looked at using was Iosono, but we just didn't have the budget for it. I think Spat (if it works reliably) is a good product (both v1 & R), and it has a certain musical sensability that some others don't.

For our project I had a look at Reaper but ultimately it didn't have enough of everything (these were Python only days on Reaper I think) and to be fair it's not the type of thing it was built for, we used Plogue Bidule which was great in the flexibility, interactivity and OSC departments. It was very good for some pretty deep but high level visual programming.

Post a link to the installation/work so we can have a sticky-beak at it.

all the best!
Simon

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Old 05-31-2019, 02:33 AM   #9
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yeah - and they are taking me serious. I try to stay Zen. I´ve been meditation for 20 years, but this..
But then again - when working side by side with hardcore programmers of video software they are on the same path..
I checked Iosono, and a few others (will get back when I remember names) - all very very expensive.
I and yes: SPAT R can do what I need, if just..


Interesting with Plogue Bidule.
Must check. is it stable...?

A lot seems to work in Ableton - or it is mentioned a lot. I have the lasted suite version, but you just don´t change in the middle of a major project. (been there..)

Some mention Engine, but I haven´t been able to figure out how it handles audio.

I only have links to museum site
https://natmus.dk/museer-og-slotte/n...khans-stepper/
no info about sound...
But you can find a digital release of some of my previous work, released in stereo versions. "Music for exhibition" (Søren Bendixen)
(and other stuff too)
on Spotify, iTunes, Bandchamp etc.
https://soerenbendixen.bandcamp.com/...-exhibitions-2

I would like to make a blog about the more technical part of my work. Just to let people like you see what others do, and get ideas etc. Need more time..
Stay immersive :-)

Anc thank you for this conversation. Keep in touch

BR
Søren
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Old 06-07-2019, 12:42 AM   #10
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I have the previous version of Flux Spat, and the experience was dissatisfying enough that I never considered upgrading. When it works it does wonders, but I ran into the most basic kind of problems. E.g., states/configuration would always be lost the next time I opened the project, and automation had major issues. These are so fundamental features that it left me wondering if anyone had tested the software at all.

I know the main developer of Spat at Ircam personally, and his work is always stellar, so I am fairly confident that the problem here is with the Flux wrapping of the Spat C++ library.

As far as I can see Flux Spat Revolution is nothing but a nice GUI/app wrapping of what can also be done using Spat with Cycling’74 Max. So personally I will rather develop my own patchers in Max, using Loopback (on macOS) and the ToscA plug-in to pass audio and OSC messages from Reaper to Max. Might take a bit of time to set up, but leaves me with more control and confidence in the system, and saves quite a bit of money as well.
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Old 06-07-2019, 02:06 AM   #11
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Hi lossius
Thanks for reply and insight.
(I´m well aware of your work - hope to hear/see it in action some day)

I have Max, Loopback, ToscA - Everything but the original SPAT plug in (testet it way back)
I´m just not a builder/programmer in the MAX sense, But i might be the time to step up.
This because every project is very specific, and i cannot just throw in a couple of "standard" set ups.

Now I´m in between works, starting on a new project next week (slow start) and i simply don´t want to spend my time on solving "technical" problems or doing another research going through all kinds of software, that can´t do exactly what I need.

If you have any links, good ideas, places to find templates, knowledge about what plug ins to use etc. please tell me.

If I tell you what I need to do, with your knowledge you could you just point me in the right direction...don´t spend time on it, but just a "go with this - it works, it´s stable, here is the template (I work in Reaper or Ableton suite or Logic pro X) and read this manual how to build stuff and you´re good to go!


I have Spat R, and it should just work, right..? I bought a new car af few years back, and it could actually drive...
But that said, I thing Flux is aware, that they have a software with issues. And they are working on it. And they seems to be nice people :-)

But if Spat R keeps messing up, i need another stable solution.

Information about The next project (still thinking though)
A set up with around 24 speakers, everything composed as a complete design, but divided into around 4 design (in different areas, both in real space and headphones (with at least binaural design)) running in sync

So I need a set up that can deal with around 24 speakers, moving sources seemlessly between all of these channels (say: I want a bird to fly from one part of the exhibition to another, or I need 24 channels of wind, moving around in (sort of) the same space), or a small band of musicans to "walk around" in the exhibition - moving the band around i my soundspace..)
I need "odd" speaker configurations, I need to have some ( i guess) ambisonic designs, some 3D immersive, some 2D, some stereo, some like 10 channels in a row on the right side, with two on the left, some running in sync with film (incl foley stuff etc).

I need to be able to work on all 24 sepakers aka all design at once/the same time, switching between the different design (that is what SPAT R, with the Rooms can do..but with issues).

I need to have a very visual side of my spaces, It is important for that when I build an "odd" speaker config, I can actually see it and see how the sources moves around in this space (In Mntn it´s just a circle)
And I need it to be fairly easy to reconfigure - (also) museumspeople tend to make changes and/or not always soundwise decisions, suddenly! It´s okay but I need flexibility then.

Not that crazy in your business, right?
And actually Spat should be able to do all this..


Best regards

Ps. If you´re in Copenhagen between 7 june (today!) and 8 sept 2019 - go to the National Museum - and see (and listen to) the exhibition "on the steppes of Djengis Khan" - 12 design (incl. music) in the same room...
from stereo to 10 ch odd configs..and more..
all my yours truly

Best Regards
Søren Bendixen
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Old 06-07-2019, 02:45 AM   #12
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Hi Søren,

First, when using non-standard layouts, most of the "normal" spatialisaiton techniques will usually not work, including VBAP and ambisonics. The reason is that both of those techniques are based on the premises that speakers are encircling the sweet spot.

So, what to use instead?

1. I developed DBAP (Distance-based amplitude panning) in responce to this need. Spat supports DBAP alongside many other techniques, and has the added benefit that it will also emulate room reflections and reverb.
2. More recently I have set up a 2D algorithm using Delauney triangulation. There is a video demo of it here: https://vimeo.com/334983275 (Please just forget about the background image, this was a work in progress and I posted the video late at night when I got excited that it actually worked). I am using this technique for an upcoming permanent sound installation at the Natural Historic Museum in Bergen, opening in the fall.
3. A third option is MIAP - Manyfold-Interface Amplitude Panning: http://www.zacharyseldess.com/miap/ This can be regarded as a more abstacted approach to Delauney triangulation.
4. Have you checked out the ReaSurround plugin? It might serve you very well and is super flexible.

Solutions 1-3 will require two environments to work in tandem in a similar manner to Spat R. The ToscA plugin is great for passing OSC messages back and forth so that you can handle automation from Reaper.

For me, it sounds like it might be useful for you to get involved with Max. One of the reasons why I have been so fond of it, is excactly the ability to work beyond the standard commercial formats that most other programs are limited to.

I have also seen Ableton Live setups for DBAP, but the limitation of tracks to stereo makes for pretty querky and creative use of busses in order to get this working IMHO.

If I get to Copenhagen I will definetivel check your work out. And if you get to Bergen, Norway at any point, please let me know. Would be nice to meet for a coffee.

Trond
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Old 06-07-2019, 04:10 AM   #13
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Very interesting conversation guys.

Søren, have you looked into the IEM decoders? There's one that allows you to create custom speaker arrays with many speakers. It also works up to seventh order Ambisonics. Daniel from IEM is a contributing member here on the REAPER forum. Here's the plugins...
https://plugins.iem.at/

There's also the Blue Ripple Rapture 3D Advanced which allows custom speaker arrays in any configuration. I haven't used Rapture myself (yet) but I do use their upmixers and decoders which are excellent.
Here's a link to the Rapture software.... https://www.blueripplesound.com/prod...re-3d-advanced
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Old 06-07-2019, 04:30 AM   #14
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Hi Trond

I´m Using DBAP in Spa :-). Seems the best for the odd set ups for sure.
Also using reasurround - still just doing my own experiments - but i works fine.
ToscA has done the job when I tried it out
I´l check the video and MIAP very soon

I´ll look into MAX - got somre spare time

And for sure I will get in touch if I come to Bergen...again
Been there around 10 years ago - really liked the city and the surroundings. and the very cool sort of cultural house at the harbor.

I will look into this stuff and might get back to you

thanks
Søren
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Old 06-07-2019, 04:44 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
Very interesting conversation guys.

Søren, have you looked into the IEM decoders? There's one that allows you to create custom speaker arrays with many speakers. It also works up to seventh order Ambisonics. Daniel from IEM is a contributing member here on the REAPER forum. Here's the plugins...
https://plugins.iem.at/

There's also the Blue Ripple Rapture 3D Advanced which allows custom speaker arrays in any configuration. I haven't used Rapture myself (yet) but I do use their upmixers and decoders which are excellent.
Here's a link to the Rapture software.... https://www.blueripplesound.com/prod...re-3d-advanced

Hi Readave
This is a very interesting discussion :-)

and thanks for the suggestions
I don´t remember IEM - might have them though (went through everthing..)
but will look into it.
The Blue Ripple i know - even managed to get a demo out of him :-)
but I was just to involved with SPAT a the time, and time was running out
but I actually keeps getting back to his website...so

This is wonderfull
Beacuse I´ve been around almost everything I simply got lost.
Now I have a much smaller bunch of tools to look into - and I will.

Still - Spat Revolution is a wonderfull tool - I can do almost everything - if it works.. - and I´ve spend many hours to make it work - I´m on the beta tester team now and wil not dump the program - but it has to improve in a very short time.

Meanwhile...

Stay tuned

And thanks

BR
Søren
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Old 06-07-2019, 05:26 AM   #16
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Hi,

It's nice to see projects involving non spherical spaces ;-)

Considering the Spat Revolution, I use it from time to time, and the KNN mode is what generally gives me the more freedom and efficiency, since on the contrary of DBAP you can limit how the sound extends around the point, which avoids "leaking" with some spatial arrangements.

You can also look to the GRM-Tools Space3D, which is based on DBAP, and allows to place 64 ins/outs where you want.
It is "only" a plugin, so there is not all the possible Rooms combinations of the SpatRevolution, but it is also a lot of lighter on the CPU ;-)
https://inagrm.com/en/showcase/news/598/nouveaux-spaces

And, well, I don't know, but perhaps that some of my plugins could also help ?
http://acousmodules.free.fr/x64.htm
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Old 06-08-2019, 01:55 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
Very interesting conversation guys.

Søren, have you looked into the IEM decoders? There's one that allows you to create custom speaker arrays with many speakers. It also works up to seventh order Ambisonics. Daniel from IEM is a contributing member here on the REAPER forum. Here's the plugins...
https://plugins.iem.at/

There's also the Blue Ripple Rapture 3D Advanced which allows custom speaker arrays in any configuration. I haven't used Rapture myself (yet) but I do use their upmixers and decoders which are excellent.
Here's a link to the Rapture software.... https://www.blueripplesound.com/prod...re-3d-advanced
Both of these are absolutely fab, but they are also ambisonics. They are more flexible than many other decoders when it comes to having speakers irregularly distributed on the sphere surrounding the sweet spot, but they still depends on a sweet spot thinking. To me it sounds like Søren needs to cover a larger exhibition area where audiences are free to move around.
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Old 06-08-2019, 02:10 AM   #18
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"To me it sounds like Søren needs to cover a larger exhibition area where audiences are free to move around."

Spot on Trond.
that´s exactly what it´s all about.
I´ll post some about my work and my background - so you know more about..me.

stay tuned

/Søren
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Old 06-08-2019, 02:33 AM   #19
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Here is an answer to ducehenne and a bit about my work and vision

jm ducehenne - thanks for reply.
I´ve been around your products - but mostly looking/reading, I remember trying some out...long time ago. , but I´ll put them on my list.

The GRM tool it didn´t know of.

I´ve been using DBAP because it behaved and sounded more in the way i wanted.
I wanted to get rid of the traditional sweet spot and the "head in the middle" thing.
Because in exhibitions people move around in your space and because i always wanted to create “psychical space”.

When I mix, I’m very much depending on the room acoustics - and the objects,the design of the exhibition but most on the vision.
and I want my work to be completely integrated.

In my latest work (and my next work too) it about creating a place. It is both a real place, (for the recent exhibition) a steppe in Mongolia, but its also a hybrid space, where we got different times in one place, old (historic) time and present time.

Some of the stuff i´ve done was very music based and I compose my stuff, also the sounddesign like a symphony and the different spaces in the exhibtion is different layers of the same composition.
So you actually walk around i a piece of music…and you get rid of clashes of sound.

I come from a purely musical background (guitar! and the lovely noise it makes), and spend my time now on studying mainly classical music, but also a great fan of Eno, Pink Floyd, Underworld, Daniel Lanois, Kraftwerk etc - artists that very much consider sound and space to be a part of the music.

I´m also a soundnerd, when making “my own” stereo music, and I’m struggling to make immersive stuff sound good.

Still, just making things work has taken so much time, that I really don´t have a deeper understanding of the more techincal/"academic" side of things. Wish i had - working on it..

but I would like to spend my time unfolding my/the exhibition´s vision, get a deeper understanding of sound - not trying just to get things to work…
I guess we all want it to be like that..

BR
Søren
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Old 06-08-2019, 06:30 AM   #20
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Sounds like a fascinating project Søren and something I would love to hear in person. I totally get what you and Trond are saying regarding the sweet spot of Ambisonics too. I guess my work is a little different in that the audience I'm aiming for is mostly personal and small numbers of people where Ambisonics and Binaural works well.

I love the whole concept of larger scale multichannel immersive soundscapes though and wrote an album many years ago for an outdoor exhibition in a large garden/greenhouse where many speakers were spread around this very large outdoor space. It was a very enjoyable project to be involved in.
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Old 06-08-2019, 03:28 PM   #21
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On a related note... Does Revolution include any presets?

As far as I could tell from the (rather skimpy) documentation and videos, it doesn't.

For a product that costs $1900, I would expect it to transport me to the Amsterdam Concertgebouw or the Vienna Musikverein at the push of a button.
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Old 06-09-2019, 01:32 AM   #22
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juliansader: In the speakerarrangement folder you can find speaker arrangements for Radio France - studio 115, Montreal Planetarium and other places..
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Old 06-14-2019, 02:09 AM   #23
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Quote:
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"To me it sounds like Søren needs to cover a larger exhibition area where audiences are free to move around."
TO create a large sweet spot, surround or OBA would be ideal, since ambisonics is inherently LQ, but the following tips apply regardless.

Have slow movements to keep interest.
Have sounds panned at edges, furthest from listener.
Important sounds @ front or back.
No direct & continuous sounds from sides, or use diffusers.
Use 4oA or higher for sharpness.

See also: https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=224

Also, what speaker setup have you got at home/school/studio?

Last edited by junh1024; 06-14-2019 at 02:18 AM.
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Old 06-14-2019, 05:09 AM   #24
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Thanks
I’ll have that in mind
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