Old 05-17-2008, 10:06 AM   #1
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Old 05-18-2008, 04:57 AM   #2
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Reaper is applying the pan law to the entire audio track rather than on a per channel basis and that's why the level is wrong on stereo track playback.
Not only that but it's additive (or rather, sequentially subtractive). If you send that signal to another track it gets "pan law'd" twice for 12db reduction. Send that track somewhere else.... 18db and so on and so on unless you override the (-6db in this case) pan law for each receiving track.

It seems to have no concept of origin. Regardless of how it operates it should only affect a single source once.

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Old 05-18-2008, 05:16 AM   #3
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I agree. There should be a way to do this all properly automatically in the background.
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Old 05-18-2008, 09:32 AM   #4
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And maybe the pan knob should look different on tracks that detect Stereo Items in the track. The rule would be any stereo in track, default to Stereo processing, bypass pan law. All mono, default to Mono, use the global pan law by default.

The additive thing is why I default to 0db pan law, and assign a pan law only if the Track pan is automated.
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:00 AM   #5
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The additive thing is why I default to 0db pan law, and assign a pan law only if the Track pan is automated.
+1 this is the way it should be done IMO


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I agree. There should be a way to do this all properly automatically in the background.
Short of setting tracks to be mono/stereo, explicitly busses, etc, not sure how you'd do this...

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Old 05-18-2008, 11:51 AM   #6
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Short of setting tracks to be mono/stereo, explicitly busses, etc, not sure how you'd do this...

-Justin
Well you write a huge ass function that keeps polling and analyzing each track. When there are more posibilities e.g. a normal track that has recieves it analyzes which type is more likely (normal track vs. buss), so say the track has 2 items but 3 receives it becomes a buss with all its properties, but now when the user adds another item the 'bussyness' off the track gets reduced, adding another item and it magically turns into a normal track . As easy as that, no more confusion .
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Old 05-18-2008, 12:47 PM   #7
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hahaha

This is why having mono, stereo and buss channels would fix this sort of mess in an instant.

If people want Reaper to continue to have fully flexible audio tracks there is an easy answer that will satisfy both camps. Allow users to 'flag' tracks, so they can stay the flexible tracks people are used to, but a user can flag mono channels as mono, stereo as stereo, busses as busses. This would allow Reaper to disregard pan laws on tracks flagged as stereo, busses, but apply pan law to a mono track.
[...]
Hmm... so why not adjust the pan law if you use a track a specific way in the first place, rather than begging about the creation of a IMO unnecessary flag option for tracks?
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Old 05-18-2008, 02:37 PM   #8
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Hmm... so why not adjust the pan law if you use a track a specific way in the first place, rather than begging about the creation of a IMO unnecessary flag option for tracks?
Flagging would allow for a visual signal so that you don't drop stereo files onto a mono track (for example). But if you are going to indicate track type, then some sort of shading/colour coding of the track could differentiate track types. Can't that be done now using a template with a -6dB pan law and a specific colour indicating 'mono'.

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Old 05-18-2008, 02:55 PM   #9
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+1 for mono/stereo button with seperate pan laws settings. good visual reference.
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Old 05-18-2008, 03:02 PM   #10
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+1 for mono/stereo button with seperate pan laws settings. good visual reference.
Do you then also want to be able to make a 'mistake' and drop a stereo file onto a mono track? How do the other DAWs handle that sort of scenario?
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Old 05-18-2008, 03:04 PM   #11
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Do you then also want to be able to make a 'mistake' and drop a stereo file onto a mono track? How do the other DAWs handle that sort of scenario?
I know its a mono track so I wont put a stereo file on it. I dont make mistakes, ha
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Old 05-18-2008, 03:06 PM   #12
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I know its a mono track so I wont put a stereo file on it. I dont make mistakes, ha
I was only putting the question for the benefit of others - I knew you'd be just like me and never make mistakes either
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Old 05-18-2008, 03:15 PM   #13
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How do the other DAWs handle that sort of scenario?
cool, glad some of us out there are perfect my old Daw was PT, it just wont let you put a stereo track on a mono track but will put a stereo track across 2 mono tracks. PT works with dual mono files and will split an interleaved file to dual mono on import. I do like the ability to put my stereo tracks on 2 mono tracks and 2 mono tracks onto a stereo track.
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Old 05-19-2008, 01:33 AM   #14
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Folders mess this up too as I pointed out here:
http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20499


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Old 05-19-2008, 01:51 AM   #15
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Folders mess this up too as I pointed out here:
http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20499


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yep, got that one sorted, I set my default to -3 because most of my stuff is mono tracks and then override any folders, buss's and other stereo tracks to 0dB
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Old 05-19-2008, 06:58 AM   #16
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[...]
Either way you are having to do unnecessary work.
[...]
Well flagging tracks is not work? (Can't you not just see the act of changing pan laws for tracks as some sort of flagging already? I mean wanna use it as a mono track instead of selecting "MONO TRACK" you change the pan law.) Sorry, but REAPER was designed without any of those old paradigms, such as track types, tools and whatnot, and I personally hope it will stay that way. I know different folks need different paradigms, but going back to track types is a step backwards IMO.
However, can't you not just make track templates, for mono, midi, buss etc tracks (with different colors maybe)?
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Old 05-19-2008, 04:22 PM   #17
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I recently changed my pan law to -6db to correct some monitoring issues I was having with RME hardware, and to be more compatible with older recordings I'd made in other DAWs.
Intersted to know why -6dB, is that what other Daws use? I have read a little stuff about different pan laws and I use -3 as that is what I learnt years ago that mixing desks use. keen to hear peoples opinions as to why they use the different pan laws.
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Old 05-19-2008, 05:16 PM   #18
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cool, thanks, good to know. (I have heard so many good things about the RME stuff that I will look at it for future upgrades.)

havent used logic for a long time but isnt there a "digital mixdown" for single tracks, can that not be used for archiving everything to the same start point? as I say, a long time since I used logic, was glad to get away from it.
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Old 05-20-2008, 12:50 AM   #19
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A lot of older desks use -4.5db including Mackie 8 bus.
There is plenty of documentation on this if you look around.
Basically 6db is for stereo, 3db for mono and 4.5 became popular because it enhances panned signals slighty.

A one click 'Panlaw' off solution would help for sure and even if every thing stay as it is now, the folders should dissable panlaw.


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Old 05-20-2008, 01:12 AM   #20
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Basically 6db is for stereo, 3db for mono and 4.5 became popular because it enhances panned signals slighty.
6dB for stereo???? thought that was suposed to be 0dB. now I am confused. hmmm.

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A one click 'Panlaw' off solution would help for sure and even if every thing stay as it is now, the folders should dissable panlaw.
like that idea
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:56 AM   #21
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um... i might be totally off here, but how about a "+6 dB" pan law?

0 dB when centered and +6 dB when hard panned? wouldn't that fix everything?
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Old 05-22-2008, 02:17 AM   #22
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it seems to me that you have an entirely different situation in mind than me. i need a proper no-worries-when-defaulted pan-law for mixing, that's all.
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Old 05-22-2008, 02:25 AM   #23
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and also: huh? when centered there is no volume change, dude, that's why it works well when defaulted, get it?
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Old 05-22-2008, 05:11 AM   #24
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nonono, dude. DUDE!

read my OP again. it's not inverse, it's like the -6 dB pan law, but always 6 dB louder. (or 3 or 4.5, as you wish)

so a default track/folder doesn't change the volume. and if a track is panned hard it outputs @ + 6 dB.

so the pan control never changes the volume of the sound when you add both channels (0 dB + 0dB = 6 dB + -inf dB = 6 dB) - like the -6dB pan law, but if you chain channels, the volume stays the same, get it?

if we agree on that a mono track recorded with a peak of 0dBFS (just an example) should peak on both the left channel AND the right channel at 0dBFS, we got the whole mystery solved.
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:14 PM   #25
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Default Great Idea !!

This 'compensated' pan law is an excellent idea - really!

I found over the years that many people have trouble grasping the principles in the first place and so avoid using it and the benefits too of course.
The fact that a universal Track system like Reaper or Samplitude lets you place both mono and stereo items / objrects together crys out for this solution.

Reaper doesn't pan the stereo signal (it just turns one channel down) so there is no need for the 6db option and so the choice is easier +3 or +4,5 ....

Yeah Justin - thats a small but wonderfull enhancement!!

(of course only as an option - lol)


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Old 05-23-2008, 04:08 AM   #26
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glad you like it

actually this wouldn't be that hard to integrate into reaper. positive values (for pan law) could simply be assumed as compensated pan laws, nobody is gonna wanna use an inverted pan law!

P.S. and i think this pan law is no trouble for stereo tracks. IF you pan them, you only do it slightly and i guess it's a bonus, that in that case the overall volume stays the same.
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Old 05-23-2008, 01:39 PM   #27
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+1 for proper 'pan handling' of stereo tracks.

I know with the flexibility of Reapers routing this could be difficult, but I'm sure there's a way.

What about per-item pan-law?
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Old 05-24-2008, 03:10 AM   #28
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Default Stereo Panner with Pan Law

Here is a nice tool for the mean time - its most intuitive and has its OWN pan law.

StereoPan


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Old 05-25-2008, 03:10 PM   #29
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glad you like it

actually this wouldn't be that hard to integrate into reaper. positive values (for pan law) could simply be assumed as compensated pan laws, nobody is gonna wanna use an inverted pan law!

P.S. and i think this pan law is no trouble for stereo tracks. IF you pan them, you only do it slightly and i guess it's a bonus, that in that case the overall volume stays the same.
Yeah this is a good idea.. if you set a pan law to say +6dB, then the center panned signal is normal, and if you pan hard right or left, it'll get 6dB of boost. This is actually the mode that pan envelopes currently use (since they are actually a separate stage from the pan trim at this point).

Expect this soon
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Old 05-25-2008, 06:00 PM   #30
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I've read this thread from Till's idea post to here about 5 times and I'm still not sure I quite get it.

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Old 05-26-2008, 01:35 AM   #31
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Nor me.

If shit's too loud, I turn down the fader.

Seems good enough for me. Balls to pan-law.
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Old 05-26-2008, 05:42 AM   #32
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Expect this soon
sweeeeeet..
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Old 05-26-2008, 04:14 PM   #33
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Yeah this is a good idea.. if you set a pan law to say +6dB, then the center panned signal is normal, and if you pan hard right or left, it'll get 6dB of boost. This is actually the mode that pan envelopes currently use (since they are actually a separate stage from the pan trim at this point).
so when we automate panning it is not obeying the pan law we set for it? this seems wierd, I would have thought the automation was just telling the trim what to do.
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Old 05-27-2008, 06:46 AM   #34
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so when we automate panning it is not obeying the pan law we set for it?
Normally Panorama Compensation (Pan Law) is done by lowering the center level wich also has the advantage of reducing the chance of overloading the master. In this case though it would raise the side levels - simple and effective.
The ratio remains the same.
Perfect!

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Old 05-27-2008, 09:35 PM   #35
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but with what justin is saying, when we use automation we get a +6 pan law, if I have set my pan law to -3 then the ratio is not the same. or when we set to -3 does the automation use +3.

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Old 05-28-2008, 07:36 AM   #36
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Well this would indeed be a pretty cool thing. My only concern would be cliping. If you get something sitting in the right spot, but it's cliping, you'd have to turn *it* down, along with <i>everything else</i> by the same amount to maintain the original image.

In any event, I can see the possibility of cliping with this.

Someone said Samplitude has universal channels, how do they deal with it?

I think simply having selectable track 'types' would be handy for this, and it'd also have the ability to be a little more familiar to newcomers/oldschoolers.
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Old 05-28-2008, 04:09 PM   #37
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I agree, I would much rather have negative pan laws to avoid clipping.
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:55 PM   #38
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so when we automate panning it is not obeying the pan law we set for it? this seems wierd, I would have thought the automation was just telling the trim what to do.
No, it's obeying it. Don't worry about it, how it's implemented internally isn't a big deal.

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Old 05-28-2008, 09:34 PM   #39
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No, it's obeying it. Don't worry about it, how it's implemented internally isn't a big deal.

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cheers Justin, nice to have things confirmed by the creator.
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Old 05-29-2008, 06:00 AM   #40
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hahaha This is why having mono, stereo and buss channels would fix this sort of mess in an instant.
Yes... Yeeees... YEEES! +10

I was talking about it long time ago, but your solution is better.

Cheers!
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