Old 12-19-2010, 10:39 AM   #1
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Default Can Alpha 4 do this?

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http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...651#post643651

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3. Hitting an insert on the mixer should simply open a drop down menu of effects, divided into either catergory or developer. In reaper options we can choose if we want to see vst or au plugins (or both). That should be assigned to the left mouse button. The right button could open the current floating window used. Again, the simplist action should be the easiest to access, while the more complicated action with more options, should be secondary.
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Old 12-19-2010, 10:48 AM   #2
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+1 love.
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Old 12-19-2010, 11:19 AM   #3
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Obviously that's not the only way to get plugs into a track but that menu is huge, taking up the entire height of the screen, and scrolling through it with the mouse is painfully slow...



Here the list is presented in a way that takes up much less screen space and where scrolling is much faster being in a list box...



Here the items are also presented on menus but organized by type and/or mfg and no scrolling is required...



I think Reaper's menu in the first pic should default to some kind of logical grouping and/or be displayed in a list box or something.
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Old 12-19-2010, 01:51 PM   #4
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You can make the menus into sub groups however you like in Reaper, you just make favourites folders and add your effects as you see fit, Mine is set up exactly as i want it (I would still prefer it followed the folder structure on the drive)
So what you suggest has been doable for a long time Lawrence
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Old 12-19-2010, 02:10 PM   #5
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You can make the menus into sub groups however you like in Reaper,
Is that "VST Plugins" menu in ReaMenu? I couldn't find it.

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you just make favourites folders and add your effects as you see fit, Mine is set up exactly as i want it (I would still prefer it followed the folder structure on the drive)
Sure, you can make a single default preset for each of your 120 FX (make favs) or you can just launch a host and have them already kinda organized by the developer in various logical ways.

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So what you suggest has been doable for a long time Lawrence
Not really. What I suggested for the alpha above doesn't require the user to do anything but launch the app. Remember, this is a discussion about the Alpha. Just because a thing may be kinda sorta possible with a workaround after many long minutes of personal work doesn't mean it can't be improved to be better out of the gate?
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Old 12-19-2010, 02:56 PM   #6
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There's no auto sort in vsts as far as I know like there is for rtas or propriety plugins but..

IF you arrange your VST folder with the sub groups your after (and I think you can even copy them to have a set based on manufacturer and one on plug in type) then it will show up that way in right click and fx browser but you have to enable it first I think in prefs and also by right clicking in the fx browser and ticking the option to show vst folders (probably pc only?)

I have my favourites set up in a long list for fx type and then my vst folders set up to show plug ins by manufacturer.
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Old 12-19-2010, 03:29 PM   #7
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I hear you MBN my brother from another mother.

Again, I was only making "suggestions" (and observations) for potential 'out of the box' improvements for the Alpha. If most people are happy now then there's nothing they need to do there, leave it like it is.

It's difficult to make a relevant observation / comparison without graphic examples but then when you use graphics it leads to daw competition sometimes which distracts from the context of the discussion which (imo) was "can it be better out of the box?", not "what's possible now" with some user time and work designing menus and copying plugs etc, etc.

Analogy: You could always mix midi in Reaper since "long time" ago. Obviously there is a better way to do it "out of the box" (less user config / grief) so they're kinda working on that in the Alpha.

Thanks man. May Santa bring you 5 horny playboy bunnies... while your wife is at work of course.
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Old 12-19-2010, 03:37 PM   #8
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There's no auto sort in vsts as far as I know like there is for rtas or propriety plugins
This is very true. But curiously, most host mfg's who provide plugs sort their own at least. Cubase's own plugs are sorted in multiple ways, S1's own plugs are sorted in multiple ways, the 10,000 Cockos plugs distributed with Reaper aren't really. Cockos and JS, that's about it.

At least when I do go to start sorting my 3rd party plugs I don't have to deal with those and the categories are already there. Don't get me wrong, maybe half the fun of Reaper is spending a couple of hours setting all that stuff up, dunno. If so, there ya go.
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Old 12-19-2010, 04:15 PM   #9
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Actually Lawrence if you look on the forum you will find that Tallisman I believe has already sorted all those effects into sub categories for you.
Personally "I" like to put my effects where "I" want them and "I" don't for one minute believe that any auto sorting would work for me at all.

Also the last time I built a VST plugin I don't remember there being a plugin descriptor beyond effect or instrument so I have no idea how an auto sort would work, How do the others auto sort, just out of interest ?
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Old 12-19-2010, 04:51 PM   #10
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LOL

It would be nice to have the Js plugs etc sorted.

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This is very true. But curiously, most host mfg's who provide plugs sort their own at least. Cubase's own plugs are sorted in multiple ways, S1's own plugs are sorted in multiple ways, the 10,000 Cockos plugs distributed with Reaper aren't really. Cockos and JS, that's about it.

At least when I do go to start sorting my 3rd party plugs I don't have to deal with those and the categories are already there. Don't get me wrong, maybe half the fun of Reaper is spending a couple of hours setting all that stuff up, dunno. If so, there ya go.
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Old 12-19-2010, 05:06 PM   #11
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We have explored this a few times.

There's some logic in doing some automatic sorting, even if it's just a one-step setup for the user. "Sort plugins in to manufacturer sub categories".

As to where to keep them, Protools does something interesting on the MCP inserts. It has a small area on the left that makes the whole thing function as a drop-down menu, while clicking on the rest of the area calls up the existing plugin or calls up that dropdown menu, which can be sorted by manufacturer and catagory(provided by manufacturer in the RTAS standard)

In Reaper this could be kind of the thing we could use. These categories or manufacturer sortings would be available just like Cockos and JS are in the FX browser as well.

I really like that aspect of Protools. It's fast and efficient, though I also like Reapers FX browser filter box even more. It could be a good addition, because it's a good idea overall.


On implementation, sorting by manufacturer may be the easiest thing to do for Reaper itself. Categories require more up-front work by Cockos, and here the user base could contribute descriptions by hand-sorting plugins in to categories using a special function in the current alpha releases, exporting that information and sending it to Cockos. It can check for an update status, and with a little security like fingerprinting a system to make it one description set per machine, update frequency restrictions and perhaps even restricting this to registered owners only(not recommended as it's an incentive for the crack monkeys), this build a decent database of the following:

Category assignment for plugin based on
  • VST plugin DLL fingerprints
  • DLL file name
  • plugin name provided by VST plugin(which always included a manufacturer)

If enough folks chip in, and I know I would, Cockos could get a good start at automatic sorting plugins from an internal list.

Categories are easy enough to cobble together. We can take our cue from the other DAWs there and pick the most appropriate.

Here's the standard Protools list. It's a start. The most used two categories are at the top.
  • EQ
  • Dynamics
  • Pitch Shift
  • Reverb
  • Delay
  • Modulation
  • Harmonic
  • Noise Reduction
  • Dither
  • Sound Field (ReaSurround belongs in this)
  • Instrument
  • Effect
  • Other
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Last edited by airon; 12-19-2010 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 12-19-2010, 05:17 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
Actually Lawrence if you look on the forum you will find that Tallisman I believe has already sorted all those effects into sub categories for you.
Yes, I remember that. It's not for "me", this ... is ... the ... Alpha ... board.

Anything I say here is for the guy who never heard of Tallisman or the forum or who may not want to search for those things. The guy who may expect to launch Reaper and see all of the included FX sorted in some kind of rational way, that's all. Also, I'm not telling you or anyone else how you should arrange your FX. I like that you can arrange FX however you want and nobody here is suggesting that they take that away.

I'm - only - making - a - suggestion - on - the - Alpha - board - for - potential - out of the box - default functionality on first launch ever.

Now maybe they should package those presets Tallisman built with the installer? That might be good. I do appreciate the work he did on that. Thanks.

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Old 12-19-2010, 05:49 PM   #13
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We have explored this a few times.
Yes it has. I'm not sure exactly how or when my comments got taken for something other than what I intended but I will assume it's my lack of communication skills. Let me this try again...

Someone hands me a copy of Daw X or I download it. I run the installer and it pops up on the screen. If the plugs that come with it are already sorted it makes life a little easier, one less thing to think about in the short term while I learn the daw. One of the major pushes for V4 was even more immediate usability so (imo) in cases where the user can be at least temporarily removed from any manual setup, it reduces potential initial frustration.

So, I launch Studio One for the very first time and the plugs they give me are already sorted on first launch. Not only that, my third party plugs are sorted by MFG. I don't have to go on the forum to ask about that, how to do that.

Sorted flat (alphabetical order, all plugs), Folder Structure, Vendor, Category, all of my VST plugs. Not only that, but because there are already FX chains there to be used it speeds my learning of how to use FX chains in this host which might be different from my last host. It's just all initial presentation allowing you to focus on learning the DAW instead of having to jump directly into customization.







You can *still* arrange your FX anyway you want whenever you want by dragging presets to anywhere on the file system in any folder structure you care to build, which is something different from what you're given to work with by default out of the box. I do that in Studio One and Reaper, arrange my FX in different ways, with folders, whatever.

That's really all I was saying. That it might be good for the new user to see something similar to the above by default, that's all. I think Tallisman's FX sorting favorites thing should probably be part of the default install actually. Might as well...

Last edited by Lawrence; 12-19-2010 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 12-19-2010, 06:12 PM   #14
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I like the Cubase method which gives you the choice of sorting them yourself or by manufacturer. I'd like the option in Reaper to be able to shut off the whole top listing display and just view and use your custom folders in a smaller window. I don't like Reapers big plugin window, sometimes it's TMI.
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Old 12-19-2010, 06:33 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post

That would be really nice, but I think for starters we could at least get an option to do subfolders in FX Browser

Tree list could contain user made folders/subfolders (all retractable ofc) and FX list could me made to show two things for selected folder in tree list:

1. all the subfolders
2. all plugins

The way the plugins are shown (subfolders/all plugins) could be chosen locally for every folder (and of course there could be a global option but local option would override it)

And one day when devs start to implement more docking into reaper this could be made even better with ideas you posted

I hope this makes sense

Last edited by Breeder; 12-19-2010 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 12-19-2010, 07:02 PM   #16
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Just to make sure I complete the overview, the "flat" list (well actually all lists) is scrollable by key, in other words, no matter how long the list is it works just like any other windows list, intuitive to anyone who uses Windows lists, if you type "R" it jumps to R. In contrast, if I type "R" into Reaper's big window filter it returns every single plug with a "R" anywhere in the name. This comes into play when you start looking for plugs that are not in your favorites lists and similar, if you have tons of plugs.

So in this case I don't necessarily need a "filter". I just need to navigate quickly through the list, if I happen to be viewing that particular flat list. In addition, logically, all relevant presets are folder'ed underneath the plugs they belong to in all views. If I need X_Noise I hit X and there they are, all plugs that begin with "X"... at the very bottom of the list.



So again, it's not a "vs" thing. There are things in both that are subjectively better than the other. My observations here are on the S1 side, there (for S1) they're on the Reaper side, like mouse modifiers and other things that Reaper excels at. I have lots of "observations" related to Reaper functionality over there.

Last edited by Lawrence; 12-19-2010 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 12-19-2010, 09:27 PM   #17
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Yes, I remember that. It's not for "me", this ... is ... the ... Alpha ... board.

Anything I say here is for the guy who never heard of Tallisman or the forum or who may not want to search for those things. The guy who may expect to launch Reaper and see all of the included FX sorted in some kind of rational way, that's all.
I'm THAT guy.
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