Old 11-13-2010, 10:38 PM   #41
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i fully agree with you karbo,

though i'd still like to to hear that recording (tuned to a tuner)
I'll break out my Taylor tomorrow if I have time and do just that. That should be even more of a challenge since its an acoustic and not much I can adjust.

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Old 11-13-2010, 11:45 PM   #42
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cool, im interested to hear - and to clarify - i dont think it's not possible, i guess i got somewhat irked my statements like "tuning to open E is categorically incorrect"

i mean that's like saying that statement in incorrect - how do you quantify what correct tuning is - i do by how it sounds - not how i get there

now if you tune to open E and it sounds like crap - then ya, it aint workin out. Though if you tune up and play a few chords, you might have to tweak the G to get a good balance between voicings

i mean the intentions of this post seem good enough, though statements like that open the door to derailment,

besides it was good enough for hendrix
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Old 11-14-2010, 02:58 AM   #43
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4. This is huge: get in touch with your parametric EQ. For reasons unknown to me, digital guitar effects, even when they sound quite good, tend to leave a certain imprint of fizzy trash at certain frequencies, most often in the 2kHz~11kHz range. Set up a parametric eq with a sharp boost (say, +10dB with a Q of 3 or higher), and sweep around that upper midrange. What you are looking for is places where the EQ'd guitar sounds like a steady-state whine, with no change between notes, chords, beats, or whatever. Ten-to-one says you find at least one such frequency. When you do, zero in on the most obnoxious, offensive frequency (the one that sounds most like high-pitched fan noise, for lack of a better example) and turn the boost into a cut. You'll have to play around with Q and cut amount to find the best compromise, but a one or two such rips can make a huge improvement in a fizzy or nasal guitar tone (analog or digital, but digital amp emulators seem to be the worst offenders). You might find similar offenders in the lower mids, or anywhere else. It's trial-and-error to figure out how much and how many cuts you can get away with before killing the guitar sound, and sometimes it works better BEFORE the distortion/amp simulator, but usually after. But once you have it set up, it tends to work pretty well as a preset/template for that guitar sound.
Any chance of supplying some audio examples of the sweep, finding the EQ notch, then before and after comparison?
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Old 11-14-2010, 03:04 AM   #44
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Also, what are your thoughts on current vst amps?

I understand there's a well argued opinion that if you're happy with your sound, it doesn't matter how you arrive there, and I am wary of this turning into A vs B...what am I trying to say...

I tend to use LePou amps and Redwirez cabs for my guitar, compared to Line6, they just sound more alive. On the guitarampmodeling.com forums, there seems to be a sense of triumph of their analogue modelling over commercial amp sims.

And, further that, how do people approach using vst amp sims? Is it to get a convincing 'real' guitar tone, or is it to get an awesome guitar tone? As in, autotune used to be getting a singer to sound like a real 'good' singer, but now it's used as an outright effect.
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Old 11-14-2010, 03:33 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by gwok View Post
well like i said, unless your guitar has an immaculate setup, chances are what you "should" need to do, arent the same as what your actually gonna need to do

if you can make a recording of an open E and G, barred G, and say an E in the open A shape (7th fret) that's sounds great tuningwise - then either your a wicked guitar tech, or you know one
I used to dream of being able to do that, and like you, thought it was something you would have to have mega dollars or black magic to achieve.

I had only ever owned 3 relatively budget guitars until I built one myself. All 3 bought guitars suffered from the problems you describe (each one had less problems as I got a more discerning ear). I spent a fair bit of time playing with bridge saddle screws, but always ended up having to compromise. I now know that the issues I experienced were caused by misformed nuts (as described by someone earlier). For the guitar that I made, I used a roller nut, and I spent quite a bit of time playing it before I screwed it into position. The results were night and day compared to my favourite of the previous 3 guitars.

I'm NOT saying that a roller nut is the answer to your problem, but I AM saying that almost certainly a different nut is going to blow your mind (assuming you've already exhausted the possibilities of saddle screw adjustment). If you can set the intomation such that all fretted notes are in tune, but the open string is not in tune, it's a pretty dead giveaway where the problem is.

On a side note, with my limited experience, it seems like using heavier gauge strings results in less of the "note is sharp at the transient". Can anyone else confirm this?
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Old 11-14-2010, 06:24 AM   #46
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...I tend to use LePou amps and Redwirez cabs for my guitar, compared to Line6, they just sound more alive...
I am using LePou's LeXTAC in conjuction with a variety of cab IRs about 90% of the times these days. There is "magic" in the power amp knob on that thing.

My primary tones are clean to on the edge of break-up using my Variax or Gretsch Tennesean. I have found that LeXTAC is superior for these tones (in most instances) to all of the other ampsims (both commercial & freeware) that I have. In particular the high end seems more "open" to my ears (sorry that I have to use a subjective term).


Quote:
...And, further that, how do people approach using vst amp sims? Is it to get a convincing 'real' guitar tone, or is it to get an awesome guitar tone? As in, autotune used to be getting a singer to sound like a real 'good' singer, but now it's used as an outright effect.
I generally have a tone in my head that I associate with a particular hardware amplifier. I use whatever combination of ampsim/IR/effect it takes to achieve it.
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Old 11-14-2010, 07:19 AM   #47
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I'm not a guitarist. This gives me a big advantage in my opinion.

I have never been on a quest for the 'ultimate guitarsound'. Koch, Fender, Mesa-Boogie, Marschall, LePoulin, TSE X30... I really don't care what generates the noise. I listen to the song/band and I try to find the tone that it needs. This may end up way different then the guitarists 'own sound' but when you deliver a good sounding mix with a nicely fitting guitartone, they'll probably forgive you...

Even outside the scope of recording. Most guitarists really have the wrong idea of what a guitar should sound like. They spend 95% of their time filling up their spare-bedroom with a sound that fills every little squeek in the frequency spectrum, completely ignoring the fact that they'll have to spend the other 5% (the percentile that matters) in a collaboration with other instrumentalists. If had a dime for every time I heard a guitarist say: 'But it sounded great at home?!'...

On the upside: The people in this thread probably aren't 'most guitarists' as I described them. Since this is the REAPER forum, you probably have an interest in recording and mixing, which seems to give any musician a broader perspective.
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Old 11-14-2010, 12:16 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Seventh View Post
Here's a quick tip for improving your amp sim's tone:

Try adding Liteon/nonlinear or some other saturation (though nonlinear sounds nice) before/after/both the amp sim plugin.
For some people this might be stating the obvious, but I just figured this out a couple of days ago and it has really made a difference in the sounds I get out of Amplitube 3.
Thanks for the tip! I tried that today and I adds a subtle life and fullness to the tone I'm getting from Guitar Rig.
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Old 11-14-2010, 12:19 PM   #49
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And, further that, how do people approach using vst amp sims? Is it to get a convincing 'real' guitar tone, or is it to get an awesome guitar tone? As in, autotune used to be getting a singer to sound like a real 'good' singer, but now it's used as an outright effect.
That's a great question. My personal approach is that I want an awesome sound, and I don't care how accurately it replicates a particular real amp. But I can understand different styles and genres of music might not work with that approach.
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Old 11-14-2010, 05:59 PM   #50
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cool, im interested to hear - and to clarify - i dont think it's not possible, i guess i got somewhat irked my statements like "tuning to open E is categorically incorrect"
Agreed. Honestly, 100% dead on is nearly impossible but you can get closer than the act of picking and strumming throws it out IMHO. Equal temperment is why lots of blind people tune pianos, they know how to musically spread out the "beats" between intervals.

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besides it was good enough for hendrix
That it was.

As promised...I grabbed my tele since the taylor strings have like 20, 3 hour gigs on them. Part of the point in this recording is that it is in tune enough that it is beyond what my hands can keep perfect pressure wise. In otherwords the tuning tolerence is close enough that even touching the neck and breathing can throw it out of that tolerence. However, it is quite in tune and any out of tune intervals (especially troublesome thirds due to needing equal temperment) are as much due to the physics of pressing down exactly the same on each string as it does equal temperment.

There are open E, Barred F#m, G, A and E at the 7th fret. There are also a several chords I just randomly played at the 12th/14th and other positions while allowing open strings to sound as well. I won't deny that other than my Taylor the tele is the truest guitar I have and that's amazing since it is a $200 mexi. Tuned with the out of the box settings on my ST200 tuner using open strings to tune. Did I mention I love that tuner? Its a true analog, battery powered strobe and about 100 times more accurate than a TU-2 IIRC.

http://silentjesus.net/public/posts/reaper/tele.mp3.

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Old 11-14-2010, 06:31 PM   #51
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bezmotivnik, thanks for the tip on the big e / slot angle. this was the first time that i've seen anyone mention this.

on the original topic:

one of my biggest problems with amp sims is that the mids suck. maybe it's a harmonics thing, i don't know. this is just an assumption on my part, but i think this is why many metal guitarists began scouping out mids. our ears know when something sucks, and whether or not we're consciously aware of it, our brain says "get rid of it". same goes for cheap microphones. the mids tend to suck. the problem with mids that suck is that most of the meat is there. same goes for a lot of soft synths. maybe it's a digital thing? fwiw, i think the same goes for solid state guitar amps.

i've been preaching about the reaction between player/amp for a long time, which has mostly been met with hostility. you push, the amp pushes back. not every tube amp does or should do this to a noticeable degree, but once you experience it, it's kind of a bummer playing anything else. i've actually been called a liar over this issue, lol. what can you do?

same goes for latency. everyone wants to say that it's not a problem. well, yea, it really is for some of us. some of us would never play with our amp 20-30 feet away by preference.

combine all of this stuff - no reaction, sucky mids, and bothersome latency - it's time to go back to a real amp.
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Old 11-14-2010, 06:40 PM   #52
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but i think this is why many metal guitarists began scouping out mids
Pretty sure they were scooping mids pre DAW with their amps. It goes back a ways IIRC.

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Old 11-14-2010, 06:51 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Agreed. Honestly, 100% dead on is nearly impossible but you can get closer than the act of picking and strumming throws it out IMHO. Equal temperment is why lots of blind people tune pianos, they know how to musically spread out the "beats" between intervals.



That it was.

As promised...I grabbed my tele since the taylor strings have like 20, 3 hour gigs on them. Part of the point in this recording is that it is in tune enough that it is beyond what my hands can keep perfect pressure wise. In otherwords the tuning tolerence is close enough that even touching the neck and breathing can throw it out of that tolerence. However, it is quite in tune and any out of tune intervals (especially troublesome thirds due to needing equal temperment) are as much due to the physics of pressing down exactly the same on each string as it does equal temperment.

There are open E, Barred F#m, G, A and E at the 7th fret. There are also a several chords I just randomly played at the 12th/14th and other positions while allowing open strings to sound as well. I won't deny that other than my Taylor the tele is the truest guitar I have and that's amazing since it is a $200 mexi. Tuned with the out of the box settings on my ST200 tuner using open strings to tune. Did I mention I love that tuner? Its a true analog, battery powered strobe and about 100 times more accurate than a TU-2 IIRC.

http://silentjesus.net/public/posts/reaper/tele.mp3.

Karbo
righto karbo!

sounds pretty good for the most part

personally, there's a few chords that I couldn't handle for an actual recording, though how people choose to handle that wasn't the point of this thread.

I appreciate you putting this out there though, and really have no beef......

as for how people would setup a guitar, or arrange parts to avoid those issues, is another story - though i think generally we are on the same page

rightonksi

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Old 11-14-2010, 07:00 PM   #54
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personally, there's a few chords that I couldn't handle for an actual recording,
just to follow up, here's my tuning beefs

00:08 - the first chord - little wonky
00:51-00:58 -
01:11

it's funny too, cause a major chord may sound out, though the same chord shape as a minor7, might sound real good,

anyway, sounds good

g
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Old 11-14-2010, 07:13 PM   #55
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just to follow up, here's my tuning beefs

00:08 - the first chord - little wonky
Smacked that one a little hard.

Quote:
00:51-00:58 -
That's the beats of the major third in the first chord (E) and then the minor 3rd in the second (F#m). If I had to call it, I would say the 3rd in the E is a hair sharp (or E a hair flat) but the minor 3rd in the F#m more to do with minor thirds on big wound strings. Or simply because they are lower.

Quote:
01:11
Major 3rd again. As you elude to below, major thirds have an extremely small amount of wiggle room. I have found that in recordings this presents the biggest issue when the singer's melody uses that same third. The fix is to not play that third on the guitar because the singer has it covered. I must admit that when doing this I had to stop myself from thinking musical and make myself listen for beats. Hmm...

Quote:
it's funny too, cause a major chord may sound out, though the same chord shape as a minor7, might sound real good,
I certainly agree... IMHO if everything were perfect there are still beats of sorts between in tune intervals, try a minor 2nd for example using the Low E and A strings. Octaves followed by 5ths are the smoothest obviously. If every interval were perfectly smooth when tuning an instrument I'd have to wonder if the colors of the chords would be as rich and if resolution back to the tonic for example would work as well. Just thinkin outloud. Time for me to forget all this left brain stuff for awhile and shift back to the creative right.

Karbo
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Old 11-14-2010, 07:35 PM   #56
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Maybe I'm just being dense here,

but from the context it seems like you guys are discussing 'beats' in a way that signifies something other than rhythmic notation. Care to elaborate?
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Old 11-14-2010, 07:38 PM   #57
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_%28acoustics%29
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Old 11-14-2010, 08:51 PM   #58
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Thanks for the link. Familiar with the concept, but not the terminology... till now.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:12 PM   #59
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Pretty sure they were scooping mids pre DAW with their amps. It goes back a ways IIRC.

Karbo
i'm not saying that metal guys started doing it with amp sims.
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Old 11-15-2010, 03:22 AM   #60
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bezmotivnik, thanks for the tip on the big e / slot angle. this was the first time that i've seen anyone mention this.
I don't recall anyone else addressing it either, which is pretty amazing considering how prevalent and gross the problem is.

To back up and to somewhat assuage some ruffled feathers about "in tune," my point was that however you define "in tune," no matter what you do fiddling around with the saddles and the 12th fret business, no matter how much money you spend on go-faster tuners, some (and perhaps many) individual notes on the guitar will be sharp or flat as a result of fret and nut faults, one of which I already mentioned, the business with slot ramp in the nut. There is also the problem of nut slot height that will make near-nut notes play sharp and there is the problem of fret leveling (or even wear) without subsequent recrowning moving the witness point on the fret from where it should be. These are intonation problems, and if they exist on your axe (which they almost certainly do to some extent), you can never really "intonate" it.

As to played notes initially going sharp or this being a mere searching around error by the tuner, Endino says it's very real and that he hears it and it drives him up the wall. I tend to agree. Played-note instability on some notes on some basses is atrocious and shows on an oscilloscope.

Also, to correct, I wasn't discussing open tunings, but tuning to make individual chords sound right in a recording, then dropping out, retuning to make the next chord sound right, then dropping in. I've seen acoustic guitars where this was the only way, especially with cowboy chords.

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Old 11-15-2010, 03:42 AM   #61
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the whole nut slot depth problem is a big reason to use null frets imo (and the more consistent tone is nice as well)
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Old 11-15-2010, 05:17 AM   #62
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the whole nut slot depth problem is a big reason to use null frets imo (and the more consistent tone is nice as well)
You mean zero frets? They're a giant step away from the chronic problems with nuts, which require skilled workers and time to do. Manufacturers are loath to allow this expense, just as they won't re-crown frets after leveling.

In principle, I like the idea of zero frets, but they wear rapidly. It would be nice if their tangs were only modestly barbed so they could be easily removed and replaced frequently, conceivably even by users. In that they are under constant pressure (unlike the other frets), they're not going anywhere.

The pro Gretsch guitars from Terada usually have these, but for some reason, possibly for fear of early wear, they are much larger than the other frets which of course defeats the whole purpose of zero frets in the first place.

In a properly cut nut, the distance between the open string and the top of the first fret should be about the same as the distance between the string and the top of the second fret with the string pressed down on the first fret, otherwise you'll have notes sharp (to some degree) at the first fret, but because of fear of cutting too deeply, or of the string settling too deeply from early slot wear, nuts are almost always cut too high from the factory -- if they're cut at all. I'm even seeing pre-molded nuts shimmed up to height on new instruments.

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Old 11-15-2010, 10:21 AM   #63
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Why has this thread derailed into a pissing contest over guitar setups? I mean this thread started out as a good and helpful thread and now its a trainwreck.

Take the bullshit to a different thread...
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Old 11-15-2010, 10:31 AM   #64
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Why has this thread derailed into a pissing contest over guitar setups? I mean this thread started out as a good and helpful thread and now its a trainwreck.

Take the bullshit to a different thread...
- agreed

the truck was carefully parked upon the level crossing, and we stood back and waited...

i do appreciate though that you need a half decent guitar to have a hope of a 'good' digital sound, so this thread has a hard job, i don't know, maybe sticking with what we can do once we've recorded a dry signal into a DAW should be the start point?

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Old 11-15-2010, 01:00 PM   #65
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i don't know, maybe sticking with what we can do once we've recorded a dry signal into a DAW should be the start point?
I agree, but its tough to stay off that topic (irregardless of the pissing contest) when roughly 1/2 the bullets in the original subject matter of the thread cover guitar setups etc:

The guitar matters, a lot
Guitar setup for digital recording
Playability-to-fret-buzz ratio
Intonation
Electronics and pickup height


It's going to be impossible for people to resist adding to or discussing any of those points out of sheer interest and, discussing them leads to the occassional misunderstanding or derailment.

May peace and harmony follow forward

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Old 11-15-2010, 01:55 PM   #66
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i do appreciate though that you need a half decent guitar to have a hope of a 'good' digital sound, so this thread has a hard job, i don't know, maybe sticking with what we can do once we've recorded a dry signal into a DAW should be the start point?
I don't want to step on the toes of those who are clearly more knowledgeable than me, but I second this motion. For a setup, I'm taking the guitar to my friendly neighborhood shop and hoping for the best!

Based on what I've gathered in this thread and from the Metal thread (http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=68501), I did some tracking this weekend. I did the following:

Guitar into Crate Powerblock, line out to Digi002 rack, firewire into Reaper, FX Chain: Guitar Rig, Liteon/nonlinear (to add saturation), the Reaper HP/LP filter. The results were the best I've gotten so far, but not as good as the polished sounding stuff from other folks on the forum.

I know how to get a rip-roaring great tone from my amp in a prohibitively loud garage band setting, but that seems to have very little to do with recording good digital guitar for a mix, so I'm probably misusing Guitar Rig and nonlinear and the HP filter.

Aside from taking shots at Crate, I'd love to know what I could do better, and to learn whatever else this thread will teach!

Thanks everyone.
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Old 11-15-2010, 02:36 PM   #67
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Holy flying hell did this thread take a crap on itself.

The point is...set up your fucking guitar so that it sounds nice before you record with it, particularly if you're going to be recording digitally.

Do we really need to be arguing about equal temperment tuning and what kind of nut you're using? Seriously???

The thread is general in nature. I suspect Yep's intent was to talk about things in such a way as to be applicable to everyone, not the one nutcase who spends 4 hours with a nail file and a pair of calipers getting his fret height perfect.

Get it together people!
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Old 11-15-2010, 05:06 PM   #68
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You know though, all of the intonation discussion is VERY relevant to capturing a good sound with the low-tolerance of digital effects/amp simsp
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Old 11-15-2010, 06:14 PM   #69
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Guitar into Crate Powerblock, line out to Digi002 rack, firewire into Reaper, FX Chain: Guitar Rig, Liteon/nonlinear (to add saturation), the Reaper HP/LP filter. The results were the best I've gotten so far, but not as good as the polished sounding stuff from other folks on the forum.
I have a Powerblock, and it's awesome. The amp itself sounds pretty boring, but it's just an incredibly useful piece of gear to have for the number of things it can be used for.

However, may I ask what purpose it's serving in your chain there? It looks like you're using it as a DI box, but your signal is still going to be running through the amp section, which isn't something the "typical" DI setup would do. Obviously if it sounds good, keep doing it, and if it sounds really good like that I might have to copy you.
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Old 11-15-2010, 09:21 PM   #70
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I have a Powerblock, and it's awesome. The amp itself sounds pretty boring, but it's just an incredibly useful piece of gear to have for the number of things it can be used for.

However, may I ask what purpose it's serving in your chain there? It looks like you're using it as a DI box, but your signal is still going to be running through the amp section, which isn't something the "typical" DI setup would do. Obviously if it sounds good, keep doing it, and if it sounds really good like that I might have to copy you.
Hi! The intention was to give the signal a little more heft and warmth before it hit Reaper, and I figured that a low gain setting with just little extra treble might add life to the tone. It sounds good, but I haven't done enough side-by-side testing to see if it actually warms up the tone, or if it's just muddier. I could just go right into the Digi002 and leave the tone shaping to the digital FX chain. I also haven't done any EQ or compression, so that's an important element I'm missing from this picture.

At the end of the day, I'm looking for both warm reverby clean tones as well as heavy Soundgarden/Isis riffage. So far I've only worked on the clean tones, so I've got more experimenting to do.

If you are happy with your basic setup, I'd love to know what you do and why.
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Old 11-15-2010, 11:18 PM   #71
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Agreed. Honestly, 100% dead on is nearly impossible but you can get closer than the act of picking and strumming throws it out IMHO. Equal temperment is why lots of blind people tune pianos, they know how to musically spread out the "beats" between intervals.



That it was.

As promised...I grabbed my tele since the taylor strings have like 20, 3 hour gigs on them. Part of the point in this recording is that it is in tune enough that it is beyond what my hands can keep perfect pressure wise. In otherwords the tuning tolerence is close enough that even touching the neck and breathing can throw it out of that tolerence. However, it is quite in tune and any out of tune intervals (especially troublesome thirds due to needing equal temperment) are as much due to the physics of pressing down exactly the same on each string as it does equal temperment.

There are open E, Barred F#m, G, A and E at the 7th fret. There are also a several chords I just randomly played at the 12th/14th and other positions while allowing open strings to sound as well. I won't deny that other than my Taylor the tele is the truest guitar I have and that's amazing since it is a $200 mexi. Tuned with the out of the box settings on my ST200 tuner using open strings to tune. Did I mention I love that tuner? Its a true analog, battery powered strobe and about 100 times more accurate than a TU-2 IIRC.

http://silentjesus.net/public/posts/reaper/tele.mp3.

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Sorry for being off topic, but this thread gone to shit so might as well say:

wow man sweet tone! what gear are you using?
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Old 11-16-2010, 12:04 AM   #72
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Sorry for being off topic, but this thread gone to shit so might as well say:

wow man sweet tone! what gear are you using?
Ironincally..... A Fender 1998 Blues Jr. with a Sony PCM-D50 about three feet away out of convenience. I had broken it out the other day after all this digital talk and it happend to be plugged in while posting.

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Old 11-16-2010, 12:06 AM   #73
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Maybe this notion of "tuning to chords" is more common than I realized, but I honestly can't believe we're even seriously talking about it.
Well, I would not call it "tuning to chords" but tuning to a certain scale. (I am not a native English speaker, though). Before well tempered area a harpsichord was perfectly tuned to the scale of the composition. Say: C maj. So where the other instruments. Playing in C# maj on such a tuned instrument sounded horrible, of course. BUT: played in C maj it sounded much cleaner than todays well tempered standard tuning. Thats why so many people at that time refused that "perfect compromise of detuning" called well tempered.

Many commercial keyboards today still allow for such a tuning. Indian music still does. A Sitar's frets can be shifted (up/down) to reflect that. Fixed frets on modern guitar will never allow for being that perfect, of course. This does not change the truth that 99.9% of the modern songs on the radio are in well tempered tuning... Bot not everybody here is in commercial music only.

Back to heavy distorted e guitars: that sound will emphasize the slight errors introduced by the well tempered tuning. Makes it much more audible. Maybe thats why powerchords on 2 strings only became so popular?

We had a punk rock song where I played open D and my fellow D power chord. With long sustain more like a pad, not the metal hammers (think of some Hüsker Dü songs). I always tuned to a perfect open D for that, and it made a big difference in the overall guitar sound of both.
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Old 11-16-2010, 12:10 AM   #74
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Ironincally..... A Fender 1998 Blues Jr. with a Sony PCM-D50 about three feet away out of convenience. I had broken it out the other day after all this digital talk and it happend to be plugged in while posting.

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cool thx
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Old 11-16-2010, 12:26 AM   #75
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cool thx
You know... Let me try to segue back towards the main topic a little... Whether it were an amp or a sim, good tone or bad tone, it has some warmth to it. Let's see a show of hands on who would have thrown amp settings and/or a bunch of vst analog mystifiers, saturators, eqs and so on to do so? Not knowing, I probably would have done so myself. However, I actually rolled the tone knob on the guitar all the way down to a 2 from 10. The idea is, the closer to the source something can be achieved, go for it.

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Old 11-16-2010, 06:27 AM   #76
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You know though, all of the intonation discussion is VERY relevant to capturing a good sound with the low-tolerance of digital effects/amp simsp
i disagree that digital is 'less tolerant', or maybe i only disagree with how it's been said. the way i see it, the guitar better sound good, but the digital amp sim doesn't sound that good. bad + bad = worse.
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Old 11-16-2010, 06:00 PM   #77
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Default Add Some Air

Here are few ideas for adding some air and/or space to your freshly tracked digi-guitars. I'll go at them kind of quick and I'll reply if there are any questions. Basically everyone usually has a mic or two lying around and hi quality mics are not necessarily required. Before we start adding even more "digitalness" to the guitar track by auditioning plugins for a room or more analog sound etc, consider some organic treatment.

The overall goal is to ReAmp the guitar track but only to get some "room" into the track by soloing the guitar track and having a second track with a mic in the room picking up what is coming out of the monitor(s). A poor man's reverb chamber of sorts. Once recorded, mix to taste and group it with the guitar track or bounce the them down into a final track. Here are a few off the top of my head. They are somewhat ordered from least "roomy" to most.

1. Single Mic pointed about 18-36" from one of the monitors with the other monitor off.

2. Two Mics in an X/Y configuration placed in the mix position your ears would normally be in with both monitors on.

3. Same as #2 but back it up a few feet.

4. Single mic, middle of the room pointed in the direction of the monitors.

5. Same as number 4 but pointed 180 degrees backwards. IE away from the monitors facing towards the back of the room.

6. Single mic pointing at a 45 degree angle about 6 inches from the room corner where the corner meets the ceiling. Most of the final reflections end up here.

7. X/Y in mix position again + the config in #6 (three tracks total not including the dry track)

8. Single mic 1-3 feet from 1 monitor + single mic anywhere else in the room.

9. Single or X/Y in the next room or hallway.


As you can see mix and match the above and experiment. You'll be pressing record and playing back the original soloed guitar track from start to finish. All of these configs are recording the guitar track coming out of the monitor(s) along with the room ambience. In some cases such as the mic pointing into the ceiling corner there will likely be pronounced bass frequencies that you can either keep or roll off as needed. Once you have these additonal tracks, mix them in with the orignal dry signal. Any of the X/Y setups are also to enhance the stereo image as the ambience is coming from all directions. I would recommend very small amounts (less is more) because you only want to enhance the main guitar track not drown it in ambience unless you want it that way.

I'd also leave them time unaligned because distance and differences in time/phase cancellations are part of the deal to. Once you have it mixed the way you want it either group them and the guitar tracks togther or bounce the result depending on your needs. Endless possibilities and if you have the time to try it out; it can many times sound much more realistic than plugging away at VST's attempting to arrive at a similar result.

Hope it helps.

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Old 11-17-2010, 01:30 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Here are few ideas for adding some air and/or space to your freshly tracked digi-guitars. I'll go at them kind of quick and I'll reply if there are any questions. Basically everyone usually has a mic or two lying around and hi quality mics are not necessarily required. Before we start adding even more "digitalness" to the guitar track by auditioning plugins for a room or more analog sound etc, consider some organic treatment.

Hope it helps.

Karbo

It does help!

I can easily see how some combination of these techniques would be great for a clean part all the way through to a big rock solo. Do you have any recommendations on where to start with these if you want to add some life to a tight metal style riff?
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Old 11-17-2010, 06:14 PM   #79
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It does help!

I can easily see how some combination of these techniques would be great for a clean part all the way through to a big rock solo. Do you have any recommendations on where to start with these if you want to add some life to a tight metal style riff?
I don't actually. The best rule to go by is the closer the mic to the monitors, the tighter the ambience sounds. The good news is that this is a definate if it sounds good it is good scenario. I used to use it years ago with drum machines (think roland/boss DR5) to simulate a kit in a real room vs the crappy reverb that came with the unit. I didn't want it to sound like every other person with that same unit and adding my own "room" to it took much of the generics out of the sound. The same is true for ITB and OTB modellers, everybody has one but they don't have your room/space!

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Old 11-17-2010, 08:13 PM   #80
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Do you have any recommendations on where to start with these if you want to add some life to a tight metal style riff?
Use the same techniques, but try different things:
1) High- or low-pass the signal coming out of the monitors; try anything from 80Hz to 8000Hz, going in either/both directions. If it sounds good, it is good. Experiment.
2) (Gently!) cover the tweeter on your monitor with your hand, allowing only the woofer to broadcast the guitar sound into the room/mic. Experiment.
3) If you have a metal trash can, or a cymbal, or something metallic and resonant, put it between the mic and the monitor. Experiment.

Basically, get creative. Look around you; there's probably something within 10 feet of you right now that could be exactly what you need to bring that bland guitar tone to life. It will most likely be something really subtle, as metal guitars tend to be fairly focused and in-your-face, but just a little bit of resonance could be just what the doctor ordered.

Good luck, and have fun. That's what it's about, right?
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