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Old 02-25-2021, 02:52 PM   #1
ilpelle
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Default Render on CD Quality: Original Vs. Reduced (Dither?)

Hi all

are there any qualitative or quantitative differences if I render a song in CD quality (44.1KHz/16bit)

1.starting directly from a 44.1KHz/16bit project

2.starting from a 96KHz/24bit project (with or without dither)

?

many thanks in advance

ciao
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Old 02-25-2021, 03:30 PM   #2
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The "rule" is - Dither whenever you reduce the bit depth.

But in reality under normal listening conditions you can't hear dither (slight added noise) or the effects of dither at 16-bits or higher. Or there may already be "analog noise" that's greater than the dither.

So, don't loose sleep over it and don't worry about using the "right" dither or the "best" dither... Pay attention to what you can hear.
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Old 02-26-2021, 01:20 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVDdoug View Post
The "rule" is - Dither whenever you reduce the bit depth.

But in reality under normal listening conditions you can't hear dither (slight added noise) or the effects of dither at 16-bits or higher. Or there may already be "analog noise" that's greater than the dither.

So, don't loose sleep over it and don't worry about using the "right" dither or the "best" dither... Pay attention to what you can hear.
thx Doug
I'll let my ears to drive

Even if I think that some difference in a final 44.1KHz/16bit can be heard in a better ear than mine if it comes from a 96KHz/24bit project instead of a 44.1KHz/16bit project
I'd like to measure it in some way

ciao
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Old 02-26-2021, 02:26 AM   #4
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Starting from 44.1/16 will likely sound worse (in one way or another), since headroom/SNR are not really suited for mixing. Depending on genre and its (lack of) dynamics of course.
44.1/24 is far superior.
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Old 02-26-2021, 04:09 AM   #5
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Maybe instead of 44.1KHz/24bit it would be better 48KHz/24bit, the DVD quality

ciao
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Old 02-26-2021, 04:13 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf View Post
Starting from 44.1/16 will likely sound worse (in one way or another), since headroom/SNR are not really suited for mixing. Depending on genre and its (lack of) dynamics of course.
44.1/24 is far superior.
Yes, but I have to release a 44.1KHz/16bit WAV file, and I would like to understand if it is better to start from 96KHz/24bit and "reduce" the quality during the rendering or starting directly from 44.1KHz/16bit

ciao
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Old 02-26-2021, 08:10 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilpelle View Post
Yes, but I have to release a 44.1KHz/16bit WAV file, and I would like to understand if it is better to start from 96KHz/24bit and "reduce" the quality during the rendering or starting directly from 44.1KHz/16bit
If the project should eventually end up on a CD (44.1kHz/16bit), I would recommend recording all tracks with the same sample frequency (44.1kHz), but at the standard bit depth of 24bits.

Recording with 44.1 kHz saves you the step of resampling the final mix. Resampling can affect the sound quality, so I would try to avoid this step.

On the other hand, there is no need to start with a bit depth of only 16 bits. Start with 24 bits, mix your project, and only in the final step of mastering reduce the bit depth to 16 bits.

With proper dithering, truncating the bit depth does not affect the sound at all. It just changes the S/N ratio of the audio. But even at 16 bits the digital noise floor will be inaudible.
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Old 02-26-2021, 09:30 AM   #8
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thx Heart Doctor

A question: what is S/N ratio of the audio (my ignorance)?

ciao
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Old 02-26-2021, 10:02 AM   #9
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You set your "quality knob" to 96k for highest quality. All good.
Everything stays 24 bit. Still all good.

Render your 24/96 program and make your final master.

You can come back at any time and produce reduced quality format versions from your highest quality final master.

Will some of said "reduced quality" formats still deliver your final master with no perceived loss? Probably! Even the reduced formats are quite good nowadays. Even that old lowly CD format that not only uses a lower sample rate but reduces everything to 16 bit!

Don't go insane trying to vet every project to see if a lower quality audio format still doesn't damage it. What the hell? You used a bulletproof HD format that eliminates any and all edge cases just to avoid doing that in the first place, right? Your audience that listens to cheapness devices/formats are still in their comfort zone and none the wiser.
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Old 02-26-2021, 12:56 PM   #10
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thx Serr
a very interesting point of view...

I too, in my partial ignorance, believe that it is better to work at best quality and lower the final result according to the requests of the end user, perhaps with a smile ...

ciao
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Old 02-26-2021, 02:27 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilpelle View Post

A question: what is S/N ratio of the audio (my ignorance)?
Shorthand for Signal to noise ratio. Usually expressed in decibels (dB).
It is a measure of the amount of noise (unwanted) in the audio compared to the programme (wanted) material.

It comes from several sources, acoustic noise in the recording environment (such as fans, traffic, people etc.), noise coming from electromagnetic interference sources (hum, switching of electrical apparatus, radio sources), electrical noise generated by the equipment processing the signals, noise from the digitisation process (such as quantisation noise), noise generated by processing (fx and the like within a DAW -often we call that distortion and it can be desirable or not) or from poor communication of the digital signals.

So many possible causes but fortunately most of the causes nowadays are much more rare than they used to be, some generally easier to deal with when using modern equipment or too low a level to be heard.
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Old 02-26-2021, 03:55 PM   #12
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thx Allybye

Summarizing:

Hearth Doctor:
"With proper dithering, truncating the bit depth does not affect the sound at all. It just changes the S/N ratio of the audio. But even at 16 bits the digital noise floor will be inaudible."

DVDdoug:
"But in reality under normal listening conditions you can't hear dither (slight added noise) or the effects of dither at 16-bits or higher."

Beingmf:
"Starting from 44.1/16 will likely sound worse (in one way or another), since headroom/SNR are not really suited for mixing. 44.1/24 is far superior."

Serr:
"You can come back at any time and produce reduced quality format versions from your highest quality final master."

So the result, IMHO, seems to be to start from highest quality (96/24) and produce outputs in the definition (KHz/bit) that users need, since only Mozart could hear the differences (but he is gone... )

thanks to all

ciao
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Old 02-27-2021, 04:53 AM   #13
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You can of course also start with 96kHz/24bit. However, these recordings will occupy over twice as much space on the hard disk as 44.1kHz/24bit recordings.

So you have to decide if you really want to spend twice the disk space if the final result (CD) will basically be the same. I always seem to run out of disk space and get tired of buying new hard disks.

Starting at 96kHz/24bit only makes sense if you also want to distribute your final version in audio formats with higher quality than 44.1/16.
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