Since Dork Lard is here to learn, and comparing differences at the same loudness is mixing 101... He should redo the comparison at matched levels and upload again.
That said, that "kick" sounds like a anemic processed mess to me but I'm telling myself that's the way they do it these days for that genre and I'm just ignorant of it.
On that...
It does seem like D.L. liked the sound of the kick processed with a Tube Screamer(which would be a pretty serious "Mid" boost...)
Perfectly willing to allow for that "Subjective..." things like the "Weight.." that a kick drum has could be informed by the different times/eras that are baked into how someone hears things.
That said...
Yeah. I got a laugh out of the assertion that the processed kick drum had more "Weight..."
We’re still flying over ‘real gear has magical properties’ territory here, even if that gear is less than ideal and/or being used in a way that was never intended.
DL - I love your enthusiasm for what you are doing, sincerely. I listened to your song and have read a lot of your posts and you clearly really want to get to grips with this, but you gotta let go of this cork sniffing wine snob stuff, especially when we are still in basics 101 territory (comparisons where one example is louder than the other are utterly meaningless, because human beings perceive ‘louder’ as ‘better/more full/more punchy’ even when the opposite may be true).
I don’t want to discourage you from using whatever gear helps you get the job done, but you seem to spend far, far too much time sniffing corks instead of learning how to achieve things with the tools at hand. I’m saying that in the nicest way possible, and for no reason other than I (and everyone else here) want to help you get better at this. I know you so want to believe that the missing ingredient is gear (whatever that may be this time, preamp, eq, exciter) but what is missing is only knowledge and repetition.
The processed one sounded like it was set up to be the correct answer to the question: "Which of these kick drums in isolation sounds more like what you think someone else would think that others would think that the listening public might think, if asked, "Which of these kick drum sounds do you like best?"
It's obviously the "processed" set. Unless the others would work better.
I think I'd rather be handed the processed one as raw material.
They all have about the same level of that top end component that at low volume first sounded almost like snare rattle.
That said, that "kick" sounds like a anemic processed mess to me but I'm telling myself that's the way they do it these days for that genre and I'm just ignorant of it.
I was about to comment that too! I mean, if that is a "full" kick sample...
Investing in lessons or just practice time is the best way to improve your tone. On any instrument.
2: Mic position. Amazing what a couple centimeters or a couple degrees can do. Every mic -even the cheapest pieces of crap- have a sweet spot somewhere.
3: the sound of the instrument (not the price, the sound. I have a 150$ Yamaha acoustic that I pick over much, muuuch more expensive guitars when comes recording time) A good sounding instrument supposes it has fresh(ish) strings/reed/skins. Yes, this also includes vocals.
4: the room sound(in case of a condenser) Neumann will always sound like crap in a crappy room.
5: the mic itself (notice how far the recording gear starts to pop up)
6: the preamp
7 the interface
and super last, the A/D converter. Did you know most interfaces, even the super high end ones use the same chip? yes, that is the truth.
This being said, that won't stop me from lusting a sexy mic preamp, just because.... well... just because
Investing in lessons or just practice time is the best way to improve your tone. On any instrument.
2: Mic position. Amazing what a couple centimeters or a couple degrees can do. Every mic -even the cheapest pieces of crap- have a sweet spot somewhere.
3: the sound of the instrument (not the price, the sound. I have a 150$ Yamaha acoustic that I pick over much, muuuch more expensive guitars when comes recording time) A good sounding instrument supposes it has fresh(ish) strings/reed/skins. Yes, this also includes vocals.
4: the room sound(in case of a condenser) Neumann will always sound like crap in a crappy room.
5: the mic itself (notice how far the recording gear starts to pop up)
6: the preamp
7 the interface
and super last, the A/D converter. Did you know most interfaces, even the super high end ones use the same chip? yes, that is the truth.
This being said, that won't stop me from lusting a sexy mic preamp, just because.... well... just because
late reply sorry, not been on the website some time and felt too defeated with my shitty kick demonstration
I should've mentioned it's just the 'high kick' track. Another track fills in the bass part. But moving on.
To respond to your post: I know it comes down to all that stuff. In that order probably. Like ideally, you'd just have great mics for every instrument, and it stops there. No EQ moves, or barely in the post-processing. Song sounds great. BUT it's hard to find the motivation to just put down the cash and acquire the right equipment. most of the time, I think many of us struggle with being stingy and looking for cheaper alternatives and then the problems start. I'm sure lots of ppl here would agree that at a later point in their musical endeavor they realized it was all very simple but they just made life impossibly difficult for themselves. There's also no hard rules. Having a great amp, cab and mic may not lead to a great guitar sound for that one person, and it may've not been the guitar that was the problem but the drum sound all along or getting just that right bass support behind the guitars and they randomly come across a VST or sth that totally changes their end result.
I think you are still thinking that you can't make a good recording without expensive equipment. You need to put that idea aside.
G4greg is perfectly on target. If you don't deal with the first four things on his list, the fifth hardly matters. None of those first 4 items necessarily cost you lots of money. Look again at his item 3. Even though he is talking about gear there, he does not say that an expensive instrument is needed to get a good sound. Some Fender Squire guitars sound great, and I am very fond of some of the older Epiphone electric guitars, and they can be had at very reasonable prices.
I have a an old Teisco gutar that I got for $50 on Craig's list that was beat to pieces. But it has the old gold-foil pickups, and after a little wood repair and set up, it sounds absolutely killer, far better than some high priced guitars that I have played. You don't need a Les Paul to get a good sound. Inexpensive good sounding amps are harder to pick up, but they are out there. Do some research, then do a lot of trial and error listening.
Looking for inexpensive but good sounding stuff will take you to interesting places (well there is that coronavirus problem though). If you are ever in the Washington DC area, check out Atomic Music. Be sure to set aside plenty of time to look through the hundreds of used guitars and amps they have, and be sure to try the stuff that you are not familiar with. There is probably a place like that somewhere around where you live. Watch Craig's list.
Be not discouraged. You can make a great recording with a $90 SM-58 mic and $200 guitar if you use them well.
late reply sorry, not been on the website some time and felt too defeated with my shitty kick demonstration
BUT it's hard to find the motivation to just put down the cash and acquire the right equipment. most of the time, I think many of us struggle with being stingy and looking for cheaper alternatives and then the problems start.
I think you got my message totally wrong.. I was trying to say that expensive gear is absolutely NOT necessary to get a good tone these days.
I do have an audient interface, but in a pinch, I wouldn't even bat an eye and go for my Behringer rig I use for live stuff. The preamps are fine, the converter is fine and the latency is totally fine.. And the berigher stuff goes for like 40 bucks per channel. Give me a Behringer, a bucket of 57's (or even cheaper mics, I don't care)
As long as I have good performers on hand with but well tuned instruments (doesn't matter if they're didrt cheap) that sound good. I'll Give you a decent sounding demo if I have time to mess around with the mics to find the sweet spot.
Would it sound better with condenser mics on some stuff, or even fancy preamps? yes. IF and ONLY IF the performance is good, the room is OK and the mics are well placed.
I'd take a bucket of 57s and a Behringer with able musicians who have decent instruments over crappy ones owning poorly intonated les Pauls and Plexi vintage Marshalls in friggin Abbey road any time of the week.
I think you got my message totally wrong.. I was trying to say that expensive gear is absolutely NOT necessary to get a good tone these days.
I do have an audient interface, but in a pinch, I wouldn't even bat an eye and go for my Behringer rig I use for live stuff. The preamps are fine, the converter is fine and the latency is totally fine.. And the berigher stuff goes for like 40 bucks per channel. Give me a Behringer, a bucket of 57's (or even cheaper mics, I don't care)
As long as I have good performers on hand with but well tuned instruments (doesn't matter if they're didrt cheap) that sound good. I'll Give you a decent sounding demo if I have time to mess around with the mics to find the sweet spot.
Would it sound better with condenser mics on some stuff, or even fancy preamps? yes. IF and ONLY IF the performance is good, the room is OK and the mics are well placed.
I'd take a bucket of 57s and a Behringer with able musicians who have decent instruments over crappy ones owning poorly intonated les Pauls and Plexi vintage Marshalls in friggin Abbey road any time of the week.
98% of all us guys on these online communities buys way more expensive equipment than necessary. Learning to better the performance is just soooo much harder than buying a new plug and while a short-term wow-factor can happen, it will most likely lessen quite quickly.
Been in this industry for quite a while mostly on the major label side of things and in all honesty the majority of producers and songwriters are using older and "not-so-good" equipment because they just view them as tools they fully know how to use to complete the job at hand. Ofc a slight difference if you're a mixing engineer for several artists, but even many of those use 10 years old Waves plugins and still makes everything sound awesome.
My view of importance (I believe someone made something similar in this thread):
1: Performance of the artist (why is this so underrated?)
2: Engineering skills (experience and understanding equipment, placements...)
3: Acoustics in the room
4: Monitors ("how does what I'm trying to record actually sound and what happens if I move the mic a different spot?")
5: Microphone
5: Preamp (maybe this could go further down the list with the more than capable clean built-in preamps in most audio interfaces today).
6: Quality of wet effects (delay, reverb).
7: Quality of dry effects (comp, eq, gate....)
8: AD/DA converter (unless super old its all fine).
6 and 7 are with the assumption that the producer/mixing engineer knows how to use them properly (point 2).
But in the end, this thread ain't that usable unless you post some of your recordings that we can listen to. I bet most of us here can get a min 25% better sound by feedback from this community
late reply sorry, not been on the website some time and felt too defeated with my shitty kick demonstration
I should've mentioned it's just the 'high kick' track. Another track fills in the bass part. But moving on.
I don't think you should feel defeated Dork Lard! I can see you're trying to learn! Also the mix you posted was getting there!
But the consensus here seems to be that you don't take the "critique" seriously, meaning you'll still somehow come back to the same idea that with (and only with) the right gear, magic can happen! Even though people here are telling you otherwise. Or that you've hit the jackpot like with the tubescreamer on the kick even though you don't seem to have a grasp at what it's actually doing on a very basic level!
But if it's the path you've chosen, then good luck with that! It is your life after all!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junolab
But in the end, this thread ain't that usable unless you post some of your recordings that we can listen to. I bet most of us here can get a min 25% better sound by feedback from this community
But in the end, this thread ain't that usable unless you post some of your recordings that we can listen to. I bet most of us here can get a min 25% better sound by feedback from this community
I bet Dork Lard could get a 25% better sound himself if he'd stopped thinking about gear long enough to use what he already has and get to know it better.
Being clear in your own mind about exactly what your goals are for the recording at hand is also a key. What are these recordings supposed to accomplish? Who are they for? Who are they supposed to impress, and with what impression? What role will Dork Lard be playing when presenting these recordings? Producer? Engineer? Songwriter? Artist? One-man band? This week's newly discovered whiz kid? SOS pontificator? Art for art's sake?
Thanks to all for the previous replies. I do take them seriously or I wouldn't be spending time on here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink Wool
I don't think you should feel defeated Dork Lard! I can see you're trying to learn! Also the mix you posted was getting there!
But the consensus here seems to be that you don't take the "critique" seriously, meaning you'll still somehow come back to the same idea that with (and only with) the right gear, magic can happen! Even though people here are telling you otherwise. Or that you've hit the jackpot like with the tubescreamer on the kick even though you don't seem to have a grasp at what it's actually doing on a very basic level!
But if it's the path you've chosen, then good luck with that! It is your life after all!
No no I don't feel defeated in general, just that kick sample !
I do take the replies seriously but yes in part I do go back to my own "opinions" as wrong as they may be. You know, it's hard to change. Our experiences are all so different, trying to produce different styles and having different plugins and equipment etc.. even though we're all on the same boat using Reaper and trying not to sound like ass.
About the TS808 used on the kicks: it seems to "lift" the kick. I'd honestly rather not use the outboard stuff I have because it's so damn tedious to do. I'd much rather just use plugins, and no I don't think equipment is magical at all and mixing expertise comes first by far. But everything counts (in large amounts, said Depeche Mode) so once you get to a near optimal level with your basic mix, what can you do to add a bit of shine, a bit of girth, a bit of clarity. Gear can help there to reach a slightly enhanced result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by panicaftermath
I bet Dork Lard could get a 25% better sound himself if he'd stopped thinking about gear long enough to use what he already has and get to know it better.
Being clear in your own mind about exactly what your goals are for the recording at hand is also a key. What are these recordings supposed to accomplish? Who are they for? Who are they supposed to impress, and with what impression? What role will Dork Lard be playing when presenting these recordings? Producer? Engineer? Songwriter? Artist? One-man band? This week's newly discovered whiz kid? SOS pontificator? Art for art's sake?
Def not art for the sake of art. Point is for the mixes not to sound like they've been obviously made in a bedroom by an amateur. Ppl looking for music online aren't supposed to be indulgent like I'm their nephew or cousin. The tracks should convey their inherent message and be a pleasure to listen to, not feel like "ok I see what they're trying to do there but eh I'll just go listen to sth else that sounds good".
I bet Dork Lard could get a 25% better sound himself if he'd stopped thinking about gear long enough to use what he already has and get to know it better.
Bingo!
Professionals need to be pragmatic. Amateurs can dream endlessly. If you want to be productive as an artist, you need to find the gold in the middle.
__________________
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
so once you get to a near optimal level with your basic mix, what can you do to add a bit of shine, a bit of girth, a bit of clarity. Gear can help there to reach a slightly enhanced result.
Not unless you know what youre doing with it. Gear can also completely destroy that basic mix. How often have you been in the above position and found your notions of gear be proven true? Which albums are we talking about here? What producers are we talking about? Specifically. Honestly this all keeps circling around the same misconceptions.
If youre achieving your aims, then great! But the posts and threads would suggest otherwise.
Getting a mix from basic mix, to great mix, is still usually just a case of working intelligently and efficiently, its not about using kit to add that final shine, girth, or clarity to make everything sound good - all vague terms that can be satisfied by working clever, not using x bit of kit/or x plug in.
I think we might have been thru this once or twice already tho
Get that room treated!
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrano
Bingo!
Professionals need to be pragmatic. Amateurs can dream endlessly. If you want to be productive as an artist, you need to find the gold in the middle.
Point is for the mixes not to sound like they've been obviously made in a bedroom by an amateur.
Then you need to plan out your songs, the writing and arrangement, better. I heard your song you posted and it's not terrible, but you were working against yourself in various regards. I noticed others were giving good advice so I didn't say anything there. If the song's arrangement or choice of instruments doesn't "click", there isn't a mic preamp (etc.) that's going to make it better.
The song has a bunch of things that work against its production sounding the way you want, and some of it is just at the root of its writing or its arrangement. I agree with everyone who mentioned the tom sounds were out of place, as one example. Why you chose to die on that hill, I have no idea. They sound goofy for the song.
Writing, arrangement, making sure everything has a place (including basic "mechanics" of a mix including a reverb bus, as another example), those are the first steps. You're not at the point where you need to be nitpicking about a bit of "shine" or "mojo" or "clarity" especially if you are trying to find an excuse to buy something to do it. That's putting the cart before the horse, at best.
Writing, arrangement, making sure everything has a place (including basic "mechanics" of a mix including a reverb bus, as another example), those are the first steps. You're not at the point where you need to be nitpicking about a bit of "shine" or "mojo" or "clarity" especially if you are trying to find an excuse to buy something to do it. That's putting the cart before the horse, at best.
All of that, definitely.
And re Dork Lard's other thread, for me personally, this is where the 'taking it seriously and deciding youre in this for the long haul' was/is.
The revelation of a reverb buss, and giving a song a sound stage, which is kinda the basics, which no kit or plug in is going to solve, will come thick and fast if you just decide to take this seriously and learn the basics from a learned pro.
Otherwise the chances of this just going round and round and round in circles are astoundingly high and over years, the chances of all the joy being squeezed out of this will get higher and higher.
Ahh sorry I skipped a few pages unfortunately just those where this link where. Well, I think most others got it right. Actually, the mix its pretty good and while some sounds might or might not be in their taste it sounds pretty cool. IMO there's nothing in that track that hints any need for new gear. Doing some eq tweaks and getting the comps to glue it a bit more together plus (maybe my main focus-point) better use of wet effects to put it all into a coherence space.
OK thanks for the replies again. I guess the gear should only come at a time when I really know precisely what it's doing to help. I'm not relying on it though, I realize I need to get things fundamentally right first. I definitely don't believe in magic being achieved through it.
As I progress I notice little things that really help: lately I've improved on OHs. I used to find my OH thin and tried to compensate for that with boosts in the low mids. They just clogged up the mix. I went back to the VST itself, Superior Drummer, and messed around in the mic tab, room mics etc, and I got good clarity experimenting with that alone and now those crashes bring the right oomph, the rides are more natural etc. I stopped messing around with 3 or 4 bass tracks and just decided to go with one main bass track with less comp/eq etc and just bring the vol up. It seems basic moves make the difference and often sound better than tracks with 7 or 8 fx in the chain. Which wasn't obvious just 1-2 months ago.
Getting the right drum mix can be tricky, even with some of the best drum software. It's still a mix of multiple instruments, and even if it sounds great on its own, now you have to either "make your tracks work with that mix" or change it to fit what you're trying to achieve in your overall mix.
And yes, often it's better to simplify something by keeping the number of tracks lower, picking the best sounding one and working with it.
Be aware of things that make your mix sound too busy. For instance some of the drum rolls/fills in that song of yours, they were tripping over other instruments and vocals instead of complementing them. Some of the synth parts did that too. I'm guessing you're not a synth player or drummer. It can be difficult to think like the player of another instrument, or even just to take a step back and look at the whole mix (be willing to sacrifice some part you think sounds good on its own, but takes away from the direction of the song).
Getting the right drum mix can be tricky, even with some of the best drum software. It's still a mix of multiple instruments, and even if it sounds great on its own, now you have to either "make your tracks work with that mix" or change it to fit what you're trying to achieve in your overall mix.
And yes, often it's better to simplify something by keeping the number of tracks lower, picking the best sounding one and working with it.
Be aware of things that make your mix sound too busy. For instance some of the drum rolls/fills in that song of yours, they were tripping over other instruments and vocals instead of complementing them. Some of the synth parts did that too. I'm guessing you're not a synth player or drummer. It can be difficult to think like the player of another instrument, or even just to take a step back and look at the whole mix (be willing to sacrifice some part you think sounds good on its own, but takes away from the direction of the song).
yup you got me there, neither a synth player nor a drummer. I'm a synth and drum wiz on Guitar Pro (midi/tab based software) though
And yes that's a very good point. Are the OH in their place in one's mixes, not too much in the back or the song'll sound amateurish but just how much presence does one need to give them ? Sounds obvious, isn't obvious. The Toms need to be emphatic and clearly audible but only in parts I guess, so automation (which I've been doing a lot lately). Sometimes they need to just be a roll in the back, sometimes they have to be in the front 80s style. Takes attention to detail. As mixers, we need to know what the crux of the song is, and it's a tempting tendency to just throw in instruments at the back where they're barely intelligible or to put them at the front of the mix where all the guitars and vocals etc are. And it doesn't always come naturally to know where to put each one.
As mixers, we need to know what the crux of the song is, and it's a tempting tendency to just throw in instruments at the back where they're barely intelligible or to put them at the front of the mix where all the guitars and vocals etc are. And it doesn't always come naturally to know where to put each one.
None of this comes naturally, its learned/taught/heard/worked on/examined/considered/practiced.
None of this comes naturally, its learned/taught/heard/worked on/examined/considered/practiced.
For some of us (me), it took way too long. And I still don't consider myself great at it. I second guess myself all the time, and put way too much time into it only to sometimes realize I've gone down the wrong path.
For some of us (me), it took way too long. And I still don't consider myself great at it. I second guess myself all the time, and put way too much time into it only to sometimes realize I've gone down the wrong path.
Not so much of the second guessing here, but all the rest of what you say I identify with strongly
None of this comes naturally, its learned/taught/heard/worked on/examined/considered/practiced.
which only makes it sweeter in the end. I'm only starting now as of 2021 to be actually happy with my mixes. I no longer have to force myself to listen to that wav file I rendered some hours earlier to look for things to improve. It was a real cringe fest every time, like, yeah it sounds ok but still so far from satisfactory. I think it's a grueling - and I mean GRUELING - process for each one of us. I don't know this for a fact, I think maybe some ppl have a natural knack for it, like they love software and equipment and stuff. But for so much of us we're just a guitarist really or a keyboardist who thought they'd dabble with music production a little, and then get caught in it and force themselves to become decent at it. Possibly more so now than ever with all the available technology with plugins and vsts and what not.
I don't know this for a fact, I think maybe some ppl have a natural knack for it, like they love software and equipment and stuff.
I think it's more about just being around it from an early age. I was carrying around a table top recorder when I was 7 years old and my entire life I've "recorded stuff" even before I became a musician and interested in recording in a band setting.
Then I spent a good decade mixing bands live where seven nights a week I was either mixing or playing and a portion of that, you guessed it, I dragged a recorder along. So that's 50 years and at least 1/2 of those was just being around such things, I just enjoyed making and recording music regardless - being in a band I could record was just icing on the cake not to mention living in a band house for 10 years which gave me all that experience of being able to mic things up and learn anytime I wanted.
By now, I can do most of this in my sleep but I can't imagine how brutal it would be if I was faced with doing this without any prior experience. That would be nuts comparatively, doable but it takes time, it always takes time and work.
__________________ Music is what feelings sound like.
Last edited by karbomusic; 03-04-2021 at 03:10 PM.
What I find can help speed up the process sometimes is to introduce a little performance anxiety. Invite a friend you respect in to listen to your mix you're working on. It should only take about 4 seconds. The same performance anxiety you can get on stage performing a new rehearsed piece immediately takes over and you clearly hear what to work on! You'll leap for the stop button after 4 seconds and say "OK thanks, now get out!"
Or... if it still sounds right, then you know you're done!
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
On a more positive note, the nere fact tht you are able to cringe knowledgably means you are progressing in the right direction.
Bit like drug addiction... first step is acknowledging that you have a problem & are aware of it!.
And we ALL went through all this stuff, just some of us (like Karbo & myself) started early enough to bull through it with less pain on the way.
In case you are wondering, I was doing paid gigs at age 10, although I didnt have the use of a recorder till I was 14.
By now, I can do most of this in my sleep but I can't imagine how brutal it would be if I was faced with doing this without any prior experience. That would be nuts comparatively, doable but it takes time, it always takes time and work.
Certainly MUCH more time than expected, and possibly more time than most endeavors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by serr
What I find can help speed up the process sometimes is to introduce a little performance anxiety. Invite a friend you respect in to listen to your mix you're working on. It should only take about 4 seconds. The same performance anxiety you can get on stage performing a new rehearsed piece immediately takes over and you clearly hear what to work on! You'll leap for the stop button after 4 seconds and say "OK thanks, now get out!"
Or... if it still sounds right, then you know you're done!
yeah. It's like playing a sport when you're on your own just practicing, and then playing in front of a crowd or experienced players. All of a sudden, you feel like you ain't shit any more, and need to step it up big time and your only thought is you need to get back in the training room and just GET BETTER. Quick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc
On a more positive note, the nere fact tht you are able to cringe knowledgably means you are progressing in the right direction.
Bit like drug addiction... first step is acknowledging that you have a problem & are aware of it!.
And we ALL went through all this stuff, just some of us (like Karbo & myself) started early enough to bull through it with less pain on the way.
In case you are wondering, I was doing paid gigs at age 10, although I didnt have the use of a recorder till I was 14.
There's a few things that have helped me quite a bit recently. No. Not the gear !
- I've always been bass shy. Afraid the bass will clog the mix and take away clarity. I'm really cranking up the bass instruments now. If anything on quieter moments in a song, the bass is nice and audible to keep it interesting.
- Stacking instruments. Always knew this would help, but lately for kicks, snare, my electronic toms in particular, just adding more tracks with different VSTs for each, sending to a bus with a delay set to "Doubling" etc. Been using Arturia's Dimension D simulation, that subtle chorus effect that makes tracks more 3D, and it works well.
- Cutting out some unwanted transients with tape distortion on the master bus. Sharp transients sound exciting at first but really make your mix that bit more amateurish. This evens out the mix and gives it a bit of thickness and smooths out the harsher highs from snares or OHs.
- Automation. I used to loathe automating on tracks and would favor a nice smooth and consistent performance for each track, but it all felt flat. Automation is your friend.
Little things I just couldn't find out reading up or watching YT tutorials, that really make a difference. That I may've come across but couldn't apply to MY sessions the correct way.
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