Old 09-21-2008, 06:06 AM   #1
Kainer
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Default how to detect bpm?

I read this: action to "detect tempo, create measure from time selection".

is THIS action useable to detect the tempo (bpm) of a sample/imported file/song/item?

I know there are threads in here which describes to time select an item and hover the mouse over the right little dispay in the transport bar. but that doesn´t work. it never shows the real bpm. not even of drum tracks with clear transients.

I don´t get it. thought this would be working. but it does not.

example:
if I timeselect an item (a hole song in one track) it shows me for example 90 bpm (true is: the song is 105bpm). 90 bpm in this case is the standarttempo in reaper if I open it.
now, if I timeselect only the half of this item/song it shows me 76.3bpm. I change the timeselection and it shows 116bpm. reaper never shows me the right bpm.

how do you guys work with this?

and how does reaper manage to get the tempo/bpm of a file?
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Old 09-21-2008, 07:12 AM   #2
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most music doesn't have a constant bpm. even electronic music. it slows down, speeds up, skips beats, adds odd beats, intros, outros, etc...

when you're time selecting parts of the song, are you selecting even measures that starts and ends on a beat?

why not just use tap tempo for calculating bpm?
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Old 09-21-2008, 07:26 AM   #3
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I know that. I timeselect parts which start at correct points within a beat and end at a beat so that the locical beat-bpm-detection should work. but it does not.

I expected a button/action or a function: "detect tempo/bpm". if I use it the program should tell me the real value. other sequencer like flstudio has no problem doin this so I think reaper can do this too. The question is how?

yeah I can tap the bpm, but how do I manage that in reaper with the action "tap tempo"?

maybe my question sounds stupid because it´s there, but I can´t find it respectively can´t use what I got in reaper for this feature.
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Old 09-21-2008, 07:37 AM   #4
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cool. didn't mean to imply that you didn't know that. just trying to be informative.

i don't know what exactly Reaper is capable of as far bpm detection.

i usually just tap the BPM button with my mouse in time of the music, and the project BPM changes. you need to have your timebase set to Time, so the music doesn't move or stretch.

you can assign the tap tempo action to any button you want. i use T.
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Old 09-21-2008, 07:49 AM   #5
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If you manually make a time selection that you know is one measure, then right click the ruler and do "create measure from time selection (detect tempo), it should insert a tempo marker at the start and end of the selection with the right tempo. This is useful for tempomapping a live performance, where you know that no 2 measures in a row have the same tempo.

For source audio that you know has a fixed bpm but you don't know what that tempo is, you could do as described just to see what tempo marker gets inserted, and then undo the action and use that number to set the project tempo.

I don't think there's any action that equates to "figure out the fixed tempo of this whole audio item which may or may not start or end on a downbeat" -- you need to manually select what you know is one measure and then detect the tempo. If there were a call for it, we could add an action like "autodetect tempo from time selection, set project tempo" which would be just like the existing action but set the project tempo instead of inserting a tempo marker, and maybe would insert silence at the start if necesary to line up the downbeat with your selection.
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Old 09-21-2008, 09:22 AM   #6
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I think an easier way of getting a source media tempo is just tapping... yeah, map this action to a key and then play the song, go pressing that key (following its counting of course) as you play it.
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Old 09-21-2008, 10:03 AM   #7
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thank you guys.

schwa I do think this action would be usefull! if there´s time to implement it ... I have use for it!
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Old 09-21-2008, 11:39 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
For source audio that you know has a fixed bpm but you don't know what that tempo is, you could do as described just to see what tempo marker gets inserted, and then undo the action and use that number to set the project tempo.
I've tried that but it's not coming up with the right answer. I must be doing something wrong:
- I inserted an audio loop, set its playback rate to 1.0000,
- I drew a time selection area from its start to its end,
- I ran the "Create measure from time selection (detect tempo)" action.

The 2-bar loop is 113 bpm; the resulting tempo marker showed 56.578 bpm

Ah ha, does it work only for 1-bar loops atm?
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Old 09-21-2008, 11:44 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Ah ha, does it work only for 1-bar loops atm?
The "create measure" action assumes the selection is one bar. The "create measure (new time signature)" action lets you type in the time signature and bar count.
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Old 09-21-2008, 01:47 PM   #10
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OK, thank yuo
That Action did calculate the tempo correctly, but the Playback rate of the loop was recalculated. These screenshots show the loop before and after executing the Action.

Rate 0.943 * 120 = 113.16

[IMG]http://img388.**************/img388/8558/dsr250tempocalcie5.th.png[/IMG][IMG]http://img388.**************/images/thpix.gif[/IMG]
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Old 09-21-2008, 01:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
OK, thank yuo
That Action did calculate the tempo correctly, but the Playback rate of the loop was recalculated.
That looks like a bug! Does it work better if you move the item so it doesn't start right at the start of the project?
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Old 09-21-2008, 02:04 PM   #12
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I still get the rate recalculated - but the result differs depending on where the loop starts within the bar.

e.g. starting at 32.4.33 the rate is changed to 1.021.

HTH
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Old 09-21-2008, 02:10 PM   #13
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This is a bit bizarre, I actually can't reproduce this, I'm wondering if I'm missing some obvious preference that's making the item playrate change.
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Old 09-21-2008, 02:44 PM   #14
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Hmm,
I've got Item Timebase set to "Track/Project default timebase".
And the timeline is "Measures, Beats (M:S secondary)"
And the Timebase for events/... is "Beats (position, length, rate)

I've just tried with another loop:
at 1.1.00 the playrate was changed to 0.875
at 1.2.00 it was changed to 1.272
at 1.3.00 it was changed to 0.874
at 1.4.00 it was changed to 0.97
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Old 09-21-2008, 02:46 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
And the Timebase for events/... is "Beats (position, length, rate)
Aha! That's it ... the item is being forced to maintain the same beat length even after changing the tempo. Set the timebase to time, or beats (position), and the playrate should not change with the tempo.
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Old 09-21-2008, 02:58 PM   #16
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Yep,
that did it.

Now I have to think about which setting I want as my default.
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Old 09-21-2008, 06:41 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post

I don't think there's any action that equates to "figure out the fixed tempo of this whole audio item which may or may not start or end on a downbeat" -- you need to manually select what you know is one measure and then detect the tempo. If there were a call for it, we could add an action like "autodetect tempo from time selection, set project tempo" which would be just like the existing action but set the project tempo instead of inserting a tempo marker, and maybe would insert silence at the start if necesary to line up the downbeat with your selection.
All the above is an awesome idea Schwa, especially adding silence before the first downbeat...I wonder if this could work on changing time sigs as well?

Could it be ultra-accurate too? As in Reaper seems to detect to one decimal place, but the same item in Edison comes out to (for example) 8-9 decimal places/164.1 beats...which you can then round to beats or tempo.
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Old 09-21-2008, 07:56 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevosss View Post
Reaper seems to detect to one decimal place
Yes please at least 2... i'd prefer 3.


.t
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Old 09-21-2008, 10:17 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Rate 0.943 * 120 = 113.16
Synchronicity; I was just trying to figure out the new transient-split feature (which will help the art-less to further destroy music) and I was using Killer Queen as an example...

I look in here for further instruction, and...

Reaper says the bar I picked out was 113.6.

I don't know what to do next (I can't find the new features in the menu???), but "strange".
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Old 01-22-2009, 01:06 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevosss View Post
As in Reaper seems to detect to one decimal place, but the same item in Edison comes out to (for example) 8-9 decimal places/164.1 beats...which you can then round to beats or tempo.
imageline edison (and fls of course) get the tempo from the whole song/item. no selecting in timeline or item.
just rightclick: get bpm.

how do imageline realize this? and if it is possible that easy way:
maybe it is possible to get this function in reaper too?
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Old 01-22-2009, 09:16 AM   #21
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Maybe slightly off topic, but I had a revelation around trying to determine time sig in some older songs. Anything that was recorded pre-digital would have some degree of tape stretch which would effect playrate. So if you "know" the tempo of a song is 120bpm it is highly likely that it will not match 100% with a grid across the span of the entire song. I have seen pretty big swings and am not sure it I would attribute it entirely to tape stretch or the fact that much more was done "live" back in the day (click track or not). Then factor in cleaver engineering. Go try to determine the tempo of "Strawberry Fields" by The Beatles. This is 4 (I think) different recordings pieced together, even different keys that the transition is done by changing tempo. Just something to think about if things don't exactly line up everytime.
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Old 02-04-2009, 03:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kainer View Post
imageline edison (and fls of course) get the tempo from the whole song/item. no selecting in timeline or item.
just rightclick: get bpm.

how do imageline realize this? and if it is possible that easy way:
maybe it is possible to get this function in reaper too?

Lots of programs can detect tempo. I remember having a plugin for Cool Edit back in the day that did it perfectly.

There is also a freeware program called Mixmiester BPM analyzer that works pretty well too.

I think the new tempo related features on the timeline are a great start, and it would be amazing if Reaper had a built in tempo detection algorithm similar to other programs...
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:16 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PitchSlap View Post
Lots of programs can detect tempo. I remember having a plugin for Cool Edit back in the day that did it perfectly.

There is also a freeware program called Mixmiester BPM analyzer that works pretty well too.

I think the new tempo related features on the timeline are a great start, and it would be amazing if Reaper had a built in tempo detection algorithm similar to other programs...
1. this would only really work on stuff with a fixed tempo, and a very clear beat. things like dnb, breaks, disco even, are total nightmares for tempo detection. (e.g. if you can show me a tool that will correctly determine the tempo of anything autechre have done in the last decade, i'll be very impressed)

2. also doesn't work if the tempo shifts over time - and a lot of stuff does this.

when i'm trying to tempo match stuff for mixes, i cut the first 64 bars or whatever, alt-drag an edge to fit to grid, then extend it back out to the full length. really easy.
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Old 07-18-2009, 05:05 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
If there were a call for it, we could add an action like "autodetect tempo from time selection, set project tempo" which would be just like the existing action but set the project tempo instead of inserting a tempo marker, and maybe would insert silence at the start if necesary to line up the downbeat with your selection.
Hi, was this ever implemented? I think it would be really useful
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:34 PM   #25
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This is how I do it:

1. place time selection around a 4/8/16 bar loop in the song

2. custom action:


works like a charm!

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