Old 11-01-2021, 04:29 PM   #1
Boogieshoes
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Default Pedal or Reaper for looping

Looking for recommendations. To give a picture….

I ‘play guitar’, on my own as I struggle in social situations unless I really know people. I haven’t got or used a loop pedal though I have managed to get a few things recorded in Reaper. I don’t find getting around a lot of the tech side of Reaper that simple and often I lose whatever ‘the ear bug was’ that I wanted to capture as soon as I’ve sat down and started to record anything.

Given that picture a loop pedal has a lot of ‘GAS’ appeal, but is it the right way to go or should I use a midi foot control to trigger looping actions in Reaper?

If I use a pedal theoretically I could transfer over recordings as waves or whatever into reaper (I am looking at the Boss RC500 loop pedal), the alternative is to use the Super 8 plugin and buy an FCB1010 midi foot controller to trigger it……. If I can work out how to do that.

I bought a Novation Impulse 25 and EZDrummer to try and give me some reasonably authentic drums and percussion and a means of playing them and other plugins but haven’t been that successful using them. That was another reason I looked at the RC500. The problem is the promo videos are always overblown things that look so great but probably mask a shed load of issues that somebody like me would hit.

Sorry if this all ready as a stupid question, but I think I have simply confused myself and I just want to find a way to get going and not feel like it’s a failure. Thank you.
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Old 11-02-2021, 04:00 PM   #2
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Well I spent a day working through various reviews and demos of items.

The YouTube in-depth review of the RC-500 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5j2pFC7u5A whilst very entertaining and very good has decided that the RC-500 whilst a really nice bit of kit is probably too much. That being the case I watch Kenny Gioias’ Looping videos and whilst it looks a great idea it needed a midi foot controller…. I contemplated attempting to use a drum pad or 2 on the Novation Impulse but mapping anything on that to Reaper has been an utter failure…

I researched a few midi floor pedals FCB1010 … massive but very flexible if you can work out how to actually configure it… another long YouTube in-depth on that left me brain dead…

It would be so nice to actually suss this stuff out and enjoy it working with somebody who has some experience and can advise but it ain’t gonna happen. So for the readers, thanks for at least looking.
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Old 11-04-2021, 09:28 PM   #3
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have you looked at the TC Ditto Looper? tiny pedal that does a lot, they make a bigger version too

Warning: I am a nut for collecting pedals, I have dozens yet for all my live gigs I just plug my bass into my amp, crazy huh?
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Old 11-05-2021, 07:14 AM   #4
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I believe it requires much less mental processing when you have specific boxes at your feet that represent "a sound". More capability, but disambigulated in on screen menus is not intuitive IMO.

You can get 2 or 3 Chinese loop pedals on Amazon for less than $100, and the visual feedback of seeing Pedal A is in front of Pedal B provides a visual cue that helps IMO.
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Old 11-05-2021, 09:01 AM   #5
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Things may have changed but most of the roland loopers don't have a freetime mode, they always want to assume a click/tempo. Unless that is what you want.

I probably have 6 or 7 pedal loopers, the simple ones are usually just fine. Some you can migrate files to the computer via USB but most of the time, if I want it in reaper, run the looper into reaper and hit record.

I'm pro-foot pedal looper, such a great practice and composition/idea tool with zero time dealing with setup/config etc. That's why I have so many.
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Old 11-05-2021, 10:16 AM   #6
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Bazz, Chip and Karbo,

Thank you for your thoughts. With the mudddled state I get into trying to use Midi and the extensive features of Reaper I concur with you all that whatever I use needs to be dare I say ‘simple’ so the foot operated pedal approach really appeals.

Having looked at the Reaper looping method that KG presented, the RC-500 and since then the DigiTech Trio+ pedal in depth videos there seemed to be a way to either lock into bar counts or not with the pedals but I may have misunderstood and in truth I doubt I have the skills to spot some of the potential headaches that Karbo foresees with the Roland/Boss pedals. It is also the trouble with watching Berkley trained musicians with huge skills demoing these things….. it has that effect ‘ I must buy the….’ And I have fallen down that hole before only to find I had got it wrong or simply I am not skilled enough.

I am torn between the two pedals. The Trio+ has some real nice features matching tempo and added accompaniment , albeit perhaps simple, as a learning and feel like you are playing with something more dynamic than your own ‘rut locked self’ it may win out.

Bazz - ok on the pedal collecting thing… I think it’s something that afflicts a lot of guitarists. I am perhaps too ashamed to say how much kit I have for my own limited skills and solo playing world, but probably far too many

Respect to all and thank you chaps.
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Old 11-06-2021, 01:31 PM   #7
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I would avoid the Roland pedals if you prefer simpler. Roland traditionally has the honor of cramming the most features into the least intelligible interface.

And the travel of their Boss switches IMO are finicky to deal with from a timing standpoint (maybe I'm just not used to them), but all of the bells and whistles that seem enticing in ad copy I've not seen a lot of people actually use.

The little single button/single knob Chinese "Ditto" style pedals are cheap, and the easiest reduction of "loop pedal" there is.

/ I try to get all of my guitar students to get a loop pedal, because for practice it's unequalled as a tool. But I'm always having to stress "don't get a Boss/Roland" because there is some sort of musician-gravitational field they emit that makes some students shell out $200+ for something they only need a $35 pedal for. And then, they end up not using them because they can't get the settings in the "right" configuration, or the throw of the pedal/scurrilous timing causes such vexation they don't want to deal with them. $.10
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Old 11-06-2021, 02:05 PM   #8
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I agree with pretty much all of ^this. I have both of these from the low-budget category, both work fine:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XDQ2T9N
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TXTJ9CN

The ditto and ditto+ are OK as well. I have two of first one but the two above do a fine job:

https://www.amazon.com/TC-Electronic.../dp/B00AZUAORE
https://www.amazon.com/TC-Electronic...dp/B00VM4WGDC/

I also have EHX 720 below, one of my favorites usage wise, it gets a lot of use on my practice board. One thing I like about it is you can erase the current loop with a single press without causing any audio to play for split second.

https://www.amazon.com/Electro-Harmo.../dp/B019FR8JKQ

And I have the MXR looper (works fine), The one built in to the flashback delay, and the one in the Strymon Timeline. And I have a Roland RC-50 that's been in a box in the closet since 2010 which is the same year I purchased it.

I do lean towards the ones that have simple presets such as the first two and the EHX. Great for when you hit upon something creative you want to return to later and don't want to lose it.
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Old 11-06-2021, 04:30 PM   #9
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Chip and Karbo,

Thank you for you kind help again gentlemen. Having use Boss/Roland kit I can empathise with the ‘complicated’ remarks except for their basic pedals. I tend to buy things with a bit of headroom to prevent the need to chop and change, it’s also a reaction to the fact that I barely sell or trade anything after buying except vehicles and houses. With some things it can be a problem….

So being a bit of a hermit and not getting out to meet and play with others, the DigiTech Trio+ with its ‘leaning band in a box’ is looking like the one I’ll buy. Yes more to learn and it’s way less in cost to the RC-500 never mind the RC-600 so the difference could facilitate one of the simpler pedals to go with it….

Hopefully I’ll get my order in within the next week.
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Old 11-06-2021, 05:20 PM   #10
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Here is why we suggested what we did FYI:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogieshoes
I don’t find getting around a lot of the tech side of Reaper that simple and often I lose whatever ‘the ear bug was’ that I wanted to capture as soon as I’ve sat down and started to record anything.
Let us know how it goes when you get the one you ordered.
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Old 11-09-2021, 12:18 PM   #11
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Well it arrived today Karbo... err yep..

A bit of a learning curve, the nice idea of teaching it something to give some backing that is. I am used to playing solo so much that not having a simple way to sync in when is a bit of a game that I'll have to get to grips with. Secondly, when you teach it you don't really have any idea what it is going to play back (sounds silly I know) as it basically grabs the root or each chord or note for the Bass notes it will play but trying to find the right way to play stuff in to get a 'rhythm' or day I suggest some time signature that you have in your head isn't that simple.

It is really only too easy to see why You and Chip suggested the simplest of looping pedals but as I said at the price of this one, it is not out of order to get one of the smaller ones you posted as a recommend as they are fraction of the cost.

I have to be fair and say I've only been playing with it for about 30 minutes so far, so we'll see over time.

Thank you again for the help and suggestions. I was mega impressed with the detail and diagnostics you went into for Tod by the way.
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Old 11-10-2021, 10:51 AM   #12
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If you want something to record ideas on the fly, look up the TC Electronic Wiretap pedal. The only thing it does is record, and you can upload it via bluetooth to your phone/computer.

The Line6 looper (gold colored; I forget the proper designation) allows saving of .wavs like the Wiretap; so if you're trying to save what you're looping as a scratchpad that might be another option.

... but for just looping, look up the Amazon Basics $35 looper: one button, one knob for loop level.
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Old 11-10-2021, 04:35 PM   #13
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Chip, I will be getting the simple can record 3 loops pedals to go with the Trio+, all in it is still costing less than the RC-500 I had looked at. The RC-500 is weirdly not much more money than the RC-10 too, all very strange.

Suffice to say I did get to spend a bit of time with the Trio+ and it can work as a basic looper too, but it isn’t as flexible in the record/undo function if you don’t also teach it a rhythm pattern and key for its accompaniment side, though you can simply turn them down in the pedal mixer stage.

The one area I am getting used to is counting bars, times etc as a simple flashing LED is surprisingly easy to mess with your head and playing when also trying to sync pedal button pressing…. But you probably know that and it’s a new thing to get used to. The 3 loop simple pedal has a cycling series of LEDs that sort of help count… or at least they may in theory.
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Old 11-10-2021, 04:43 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogieshoes View Post
The 3 loop simple pedal has a cycling series of LEDs that sort of help count… or at least they may in theory.
That's one of the beauties and great advantages of the simple pedals, the time/loop is YOU and your timing (don't even look at the display). As good as I thought I was, in the beginning it was a real eye-opener trying to consistently close a loop without any glitches from a performance perspective. But in reality that's the only way, it makes ALL the difference in the world.

Fast forward to now, I can close a perfect loop 99% of the time and don't even think about it, and sometimes use it live and the band plays along (short jams) but at first I wanted to shoot myself in the face.
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Old 11-11-2021, 05:04 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post

Fast forward to now, I can close a perfect loop 99% of the time and don't even think about it, and sometimes use it live and the band plays along (short jams) but at first I wanted to shoot myself in the face.
Jeepers it can make you feel like a twit, it’s just tapping a button at the right moment …. I have a way to go to coordinate the head, hands and feet… It looks so easy🤪

Thanks for the encouragement.
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Old 11-11-2021, 06:54 PM   #16
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Oh you can do it! Notwithstanding the PIA @#$%2 2#$%2@#$ phase.

Also, I could be wrong, but I swear I think some loopers might automatically add a tiny fade-in/out at the loop point and maybe some others do not.
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Old 11-13-2021, 12:13 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogieshoes View Post
The one area I am getting used to is counting bars, times etc as a simple flashing LED is surprisingly easy to mess with your head and playing when also trying to sync pedal button pressing…. .
Having coached "a lot" of people in guitar lessons a few suggestions:

1) don't look at any indicator. You're adding extra "translation" steps for your brain to process: sight>inner metronome>kinesthetic reaction (your foot). It shouldn't be any different to you than just tapping your foot to the beat - which is the prerequisite for using a looper (and why I say it's maybe the single most useful tool for someone learning guitar should have, it's eye opening for some).

2) use the same foot for the hand you pick with;

3) don't use a heel down foot stance at first; literally stomp your foot to quarter notes and then move it over with the *same motion*. Using the heel at an angle introduces the variable of it being at an angle, which alters the literal timing/effort required to do the motion. You need to be able to tap your foot prior to hitting the button.

4) play through the part you are looping *at least twice leading into hitting the start of the loop*. Coordinating starting playing with hitting the button throws a lot of people off.

5) be able to do quarter note rhythms first, then 1/8ths, before doing a compound/syncopated part within the loop.

6) position the pedal so that your foot is within your peripheral vision *with your picking hand*. If you have to divert your eyes you'll falter.

7) swung rhythms seem to be trickiest to loop for many people; which is a perceptual problem with swing IMO, but regardless one should start with very basic and straight timed patterns.

...

I'll stop there....

I'll add though, I'm not sure but "kinda sorta suspect" some pedals have a buffer latency that makes it counter-intuitive when you hit the button, AND - it's different for the start and the stop. In other words, you have to learn to anticipate hitting the button *early* to start the loop, but then to end it you have to be right on the beat. You can learn to deal with that (maybe), but it's unnatural and life is too short.
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Old 11-13-2021, 12:17 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Oh you can do it! Notwithstanding the PIA @#$%2 2#$%2@#$ phase.

Also, I could be wrong, but I swear I think some loopers might automatically add a tiny fade-in/out at the loop point and maybe some others do not.
I'm fairly sure there is a Particular Brand pedal that sometimes truncates the beginning or end; you can adjust for it, but it's super annoying.

Sometimes Curious Things happen if the battery is going dead, or there is a ground loop; clock getting flummoxed perhaps.
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Old 11-13-2021, 05:21 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
.

I'll stop there....

I'll add though, I'm not sure but "kinda sorta suspect" some pedals have a buffer latency that makes it counter-intuitive when you hit the button, AND - it's different for the start and the stop. In other words, you have to learn to anticipate hitting the button *early* to start the loop, but then to end it you have to be right on the beat. You can learn to deal with that (maybe), but it's unnatural and life is too short.
Chip … you stopped there, as if that wasn’t complete enough! 😇 I stripped back the quote to save space. Great advice and happily received.

I am learning from what you and Karbo have advised. Right now any latency is kind of irrelevant vs my clumsy coordination quarter notes consistently would be great right now so don’t go to eighths yet🤪

As to being student material, well I am a somewhat aged and retired twit and you are probably right life is too short to get grips with some things but I have to try. Thank you again.
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Old 11-14-2021, 10:08 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogieshoes View Post

As to being student material, well I am a somewhat aged and retired twit and you are probably right life is too short to get grips with some things but I have to try. Thank you again.
The last person I went through the "loop pedal lesson" with was my 5:30 Friday student, who has been retired for quite some time. Getting to grips with things is life itself.
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Old 11-14-2021, 04:58 PM   #21
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Just to throw some other options out there, this had MIDI for tempo syncing, etc -



And how about a fully fledged sampler for looping? This one has threshold recording so it wont record anything until it gets audio input...

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Old 11-28-2021, 01:23 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Oh you can do it! Notwithstanding the PIA @#$%2 2#$%2@#$ phase.

Also, I could be wrong, but I swear I think some loopers might automatically add a tiny fade-in/out at the loop point and maybe some others do not.
It took a while Karbo. Part to do with getting the hang of the pedal itself and part the whole coordination thing, but I got together to the point it is workable.

You were dead right on the simpler pedal idea though as teaching anything into the Trio+ Is a blocker to grabbing an ear bug and getting the basics captured. That said, as an alternative ‘metronome’ get your timing right practice tool it works very well.

It’s nice to hear the honesty that others struggle to gell with looper, all the YouTube’s and promos make it all look so easy. Thank you.
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Old 11-28-2021, 03:40 PM   #23
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You guys caused me to look up various loopers to answer questions in the thread, which caused me to add yet another looper to my collection, bringing me close to 10 of them.

I just picked this one up:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08GNZPHHF

The simple drum machine is really cool. Yes, it also forces a tempo and creates a perfect loop but you have to enable it by pressing the merge button. Therefore if I want to practice for timing/meter reasons, I can use the drum machine in the pedal and/or record loops with it for that reason.

For free-time, scratchpad looping (my default) I disengage the merge button and it's a free-time looper again. Having 40 presets helps too as I can go longer before moving anything I want to keep to the computer. Yay.
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Old 11-28-2021, 04:11 PM   #24
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I just picked this one up:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08GNZPHH

The simple drum machine is really cool. Yes, it also forces a tempo and creates a perfect loop but you have to enable it by pressing the merge button. Therefore if I want to practice for timing/meter reasons, I can use the drum machine in the pedal and/or record loops with it for that reason.
Link didn’t hook up … shame, I went looking and found a few with drums, like the Flama ones but no Merge switch…?

You can’t pass your pedal GAS blame on you know … anyway pedals are always fun to try, my main pedals are old Ibanez kit in an EBL5 case with a couple of Boss pedals, PS2, EH2, NS2, Arion Tuner and a Queen of Bone boost/overdrive pedal. Those and an old Alesis Quadraverb rack or a Line 6 Pod xtLive…. None of which looped.
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Old 11-28-2021, 05:00 PM   #25
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Oops typo in the link, fixed.

https://www.amazon.com/Donner-Circle.../dp/B08GNZPHHF
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Old 11-30-2021, 07:23 AM   #26
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For the price, a surprisingly good looking bit of kit. It would be a lot easier to use not having to teach it a chord progression for Bass and rhythm that the Trio+ requires.

At least I no longer feel quite as silly trying to get things going on the Trio+, neither do I feel so daft when I am playing along and my right hand seizes up ( Motorcycle accident shattered shattered all the metacarples and fractured the scaphoid and trapezoid in 2016 ) another reason I play on my own these days.
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Old 11-30-2021, 07:45 AM   #27
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( Motorcycle accident shattered shattered all the metacarples and fractured the scaphoid and trapezoid in 2016 ) another reason I play on my own these days.
Hate to hear that. I've been really fortunate to not have had any real hand injuries in all these years. You'd think after three+ decades of guitar playing and programming (constant mouse/keyboard use), I'd have carpal tunnel by now but lucky enough it hasn't materialized.

On a side note, my dad owned motorcycles off an on up until I was about 10 - after his 2nd or 3rd wreck, I swore off owning or riding one before I was ever old enough to have one. Between that and friends I grew up with who rode them, it just seemed like not an "if" but a "when" problem and I wanted to avoid that.

I did have a right hand/arm nerve issue a couple years ago. Dr had a fear that vertebra compression of a nerve in my neck (degradation due to age) was the issue and would be a new thing to live with - which would suck as I couldn't do much at all with my right hand/arm without sharp pain. Thank goodness it went away after a couple weeks and hasn't returned. It appears to have just been some injury that healed on it's own so I feel for ya - it had me pretty freaked out at the time.

Don't stop though!
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Old 11-30-2021, 08:40 AM   #28
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Hate to hear that. I've been really fortunate to not have had any real hand injuries in all these years. You'd think after three+ decades of guitar playing and programming (constant mouse/keyboard use), I'd have carpal tunnel by now but lucky enough it hasn't materialized.

On a side note, my dad owned motorcycles off an on up until I was about 10 - after his 2nd or 3rd wreck, I swore off owning or riding one before I was ever old enough to have one. Between that and friends I grew up with who rode them, it just seemed like not an "if" but a "when" problem and I wanted to avoid that.

I did have a right hand/arm nerve issue a couple years ago. Dr had a fear that vertebra compression of a nerve in my neck (degradation due to age) was the issue and would be a new thing to live with - which would suck as I couldn't do much at all with my right hand/arm without sharp pain. Thank goodness it went away after a couple weeks and hasn't returned. It appears to have just been some injury that healed on it's own so I feel for ya - it had me pretty freaked out at the time.

Don't stop though!
Ah. you would think I should know better as my Dad had shattered legs from a bike accident. He made cars and rallied them and put me in cars and on a bike ostensibly so I 'would fall off' in order to put me off them, but then he passed away at 40yrs old and an engineering friend of his (rebuilt a 24 tonne Burrell Steam roller, but owned a Bicycle and Motorcycle business) was a place to go at weekends for 'man' time... I had been riding bikes over 40 years and then... and I still ride... <crazy yes but its like guitar try not to touch one when you love that feeling >

It took 3 years to get play anything on the guitar again and now I can think what I want to do, but the right hand sometimes ignores the message or I have dropped the pick (I can't feel it in fingers). Hospital said It was good therapy and I guess it has been though the 4 damaged vertibrae mean that the 93 Les Paul is a tad heavy these days.

I always thought that keyboard and computer works would get me with RSI as I spent a lot of time on them coding software and firmware, the firmware was for embedded software in chemical analysers for water industry. In those days using Z80 Assembler. It divert to making a Midi Foot controller one lunchtime in 1991 - which I still have.

I can fully equate with the right arm shoulder thing, often terms 'Rotator Cuff' it can be searingly painful. I am glad that it went away and you still get out and play, though It must be tough at the moment.
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Old 11-30-2021, 10:58 AM   #29
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but the right ha
My singer/guitarist/bassist in a different band of mine... Had a stroke in 2018, you can divide his body vertically/symmetrically and everything top to bottom is numb on the right side and normal on the left (to this day). Like literally the left side of his nose is normal, right side is numb, same for everything else, balls included

He still actively plays and gigs but he went mostly back to bass because since he can't feel anything in his right hand, he can't tell which guitar string his finger(s) are on etc. (he doesn't use a pick). Which made it difficult to avoid mistakes. He seems to play bass fine, big fat strings and only four of them and it's his main instrument.

I don't know how he does it, ultimate respect that he kept a good attitude with half his body having zero touch sensation.
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Old 11-30-2021, 03:25 PM   #30
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He still actively plays and gigs but he went mostly back to bass because since he can't feel anything in his right hand, he can't tell which guitar string his finger(s) are on etc. (he doesn't use a pick). Which made it difficult to avoid mistakes. He seems to play bass fine, big fat strings and only four of them and it's his main instrument.

I don't know how he does it, ultimate respect that he kept a good attitude with half his body having zero touch sensation.
Massive respect, that's enough to stop most in their tracks, send him (even though I don't know him) my utmost respect from over here in the UK. That takes b*lls! (I can't joke in this). Not just coping with the physical side but the mental side is incredible and to get out in front of others and perform... is something else as you say.
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Old 12-01-2021, 04:12 AM   #31
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SO much good advice on here, love this forum

yes, much respect for your mate and good wishes for your musical progress
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