Old 07-01-2020, 08:24 PM   #1
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Default MIDI orchestral trills

I'm diving deeply into BBCSO Discover lately. The articulations are quite limited, so'm trying to find a way to make convincing woodwind trills. I've tried playing them, but they're either smearing and not really sounding like trills at all or machine-gunning.

Is there a JS MIDI plugin to help me out?
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Old 07-02-2020, 03:01 AM   #2
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Trills are fast legato moves.

This needs very special behavior of the sound engine. Convincing trills (i.e. legato transitions) are doable either by physical modeled engines or by very delicate scripting of sample engines.

IMHO no way to impose something on the audio stream.

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Old 07-02-2020, 06:24 AM   #3
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A very crude method I tried once for a sax sound was to put in rapidly alternating and instant pitch shifts with a VST, automating the amplitude and speed of the pitch shifts (like a square wave LFO modulating a synth pitch, basically). Like I say, very crude, and not "naturalistic", but it does modulate the pitch without re-starting the note.
I did it this way so that I could still use the pitch bend wheel while the trill was going on.
There's definitely a pitch shifter in the JS plugins,and the amount of pitch shift can be varied with an LFO that varies a CC message connected to the pitch shift amount. $0.02
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Old 07-02-2020, 10:12 AM   #4
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Cool suggestions! Appreciated!

One good thing about string libraries is they usually have a tremolo articulation.

I'm not looking for a Baroque-style trill, just to clarify. The one I'm trying to do is used in the classic dramatic sting:

https://youtu.be/iY7rSizkhwc
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:16 AM   #5
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I have Redroom Palette. Maybe try the free version of that. I cannot remember if the version has trills or not.

https://redroomaudio.com/product/pal...rimary-colors/
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Old 07-02-2020, 12:45 PM   #6
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I have Redroom Palette. Maybe try the free version of that. I cannot remember if the version has trills or not.

https://redroomaudio.com/product/pal...rimary-colors/
I just downloaded this library yesterday. I've yet to test it out.

That said, the challenge I'd set for myself was a complete score using BBCSO Discover.
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Old 07-03-2020, 01:17 AM   #7
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That said, the challenge I'd set for myself was a complete score using BBCSO Discover.
Well, that's the thing with discover, not all articulations are there. I'm afraid you will not get a convincing trill out of it.
Also the reason why articulations are in the big libraries ofcourse

You might want to try, instead of trying to build a trill in one track, add another track with the 'second' note of the trill.
Or, maybe you could just try to have a simple legato long note, let's say A, and put a B or Bb on top of it, long legato. You maybe could, because of the dissonant, fool the ear?
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Old 07-03-2020, 06:40 AM   #8
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If you want something a little better on a tight budget Miroslav 2 CE currently at $40:
https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/philharmonik2ce/

This is the cut down 10GB library (16 bit only to save space if I remember correctly), still a little larger and far better sounding than that 200 meg library which sounds like it stepped out of the early 1990s!
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Old 07-03-2020, 10:04 AM   #9
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Okay, to clarify, I wasn't looking for new libraries.

I was asking if anyone had found a way to cludge together a semi-realistic sounding trill.

It's really easy to slag off one product and throw cash at another, but that's not really problem-solving. (If you must recommend libraries, I'm kinda committed to the Kontakt ecosystem, so please confine your suggestions to that.)
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Old 07-03-2020, 12:22 PM   #10
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Okay, to clarify, I wasn't looking for new libraries.

I was asking if anyone had found a way to cludge together a semi-realistic sounding trill.

It's really easy to slag off one product and throw cash at another, but that's not really problem-solving. (If you must recommend libraries, I'm kinda committed to the Kontakt ecosystem, so please confine your suggestions to that.)
Not slagging it off at all - all things in their place.
Sorry if you found it out of place to suggest other things.
Obviously that little library is a clever for such a tiny amount of data. I wouldn't have expected someone with full Kontakt 5 or 6 to have chosen to use it, other than say on a spare low powered laptop for sketching ideas, or something like that.
I suggested the Redroom product because it's free.
I suggested the Miroslav 2 because it's obviously one of the cheapest(and relatively decent) ones currently, unfortunately not Kontakt, just a standalone.
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Old 07-03-2020, 01:53 PM   #11
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Well, that's the thing with discover, not all articulations are there. I'm afraid you will not get a convincing trill out of it.
Also the reason why articulations are in the big libraries ofcourse

You might want to try, instead of trying to build a trill in one track, add another track with the 'second' note of the trill.
Or, maybe you could just try to have a simple legato long note, let's say A, and put a B or Bb on top of it, long legato. You maybe could, because of the dissonant, fool the ear?
I will definitely try this.

I actually tried holding the lower note of the interval and trilling the upper harmony, but the upper harmony didn't sound loud enough. I suppose I could fix that in the piano roll.
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Old 07-03-2020, 01:55 PM   #12
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Not slagging it off at all - all things in their place.
Sorry if you found it out of place to suggest other things.
Obviously that little library is a clever for such a tiny amount of data. I wouldn't have expected someone with full Kontakt 5 or 6 to have chosen to use it, other than say on a spare low powered laptop for sketching ideas, or something like that.
I suggested the Redroom product because it's free.
I suggested the Miroslav 2 because it's obviously one of the cheapest(and relatively decent) ones currently, unfortunately not Kontakt, just a standalone.
I got Discover because it was free lol! I don't think it sounds bad at all. I wouldn't use it if I thought it did.

I've not looked too closely at Miroslav. I may just do that.

Palatte sounds way more "synthy" to my ears than Discover. I definitely has trem/flutter control, but not on the woodwinds. I mean, it still offers a lot for nothing.
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Old 07-03-2020, 02:35 PM   #13
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I got Discover because it was free lol! I don't think it sounds bad at all. I wouldn't use it if I thought it did.

I've not looked too closely at Miroslav. I may just do that.

Palatte sounds way more "synthy" to my ears than Discover. I definitely has trem/flutter control, but not on the woodwinds. I mean, it still offers a lot for nothing.
Full Palette doesn't sound synthy to me, it depends on how it is used I suppose.
I picked up the main package in a recent sale for £80.
Both Miroslav packages sound sweet to me, you may or may not like it's sound, have a listen to the demo tracks. It's tonally a different sound to Palette.
I haven't picked up Miroslav 2 but thought it was worth mentioning in a thread about a free library when I imagine some readers would want a cheap option.
Spitfire don't really offer any orchestral packages between their novelty freebies like this and premium software packages for hundreds or thousands.

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Old 07-03-2020, 07:46 PM   #14
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Kirk, what instrument are you trying to make a trill of?

Is it a solo instrument?

How many Kontakt Groups are in this instrument?
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Old 07-03-2020, 08:07 PM   #15
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Miroslav is indeed an excellent buy. I don't know if I have all the info I need before buying a huge library.

I did manage to get the trill sound I was looking for. It happened to be the oboe for one and quite a bit wider effect than I'd originally thought.

I also needed a bit more forward-sounding french horn, so I picked up Orchestral Tools Majestic Horn. A no brainer at €2. Sounds really good blended with the BBC horn section.

Finally, I needed instruments that BBC doesn't have, like an organ and a cymbal roll. The latter is in ProjectSAM's Free Orchestra.

So as per usual for me, the jigsaw method wins out.
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Old 07-03-2020, 08:12 PM   #16
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Kirk, what instrument are you trying to make a trill of?

Is it a solo instrument?

How many Kontakt Groups are in this instrument?
Piccolo, flutes, and oboe. It's a very quick "sting" followed by a falling glissando.

It's not a Kontakt instrument at all.
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Old 07-03-2020, 11:44 PM   #17
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Kirk, what instrument are you trying to make a trill of?

Is it a solo instrument?

How many Kontakt Groups are in this instrument?
Tod,
Most of Spitfire's packages work in Kontakt but a number of them work in their own engine now.
To further confuse matters Kirk stated he wants to keep virtual library options to Kontakt, but that's paid libraries. I have some sympathy for this as yet another Kontakt user.

Kirk,
Have you tried blending the standard elderly Kontakt VSL library sounds with this BBC library?
Perhaps the free Sonatina library will also have a few sounds you could blend in?

The cut down Miroslav CE at 10GB is actually a small library by current standards, even though it is a whopping 50 times bigger than this freebie.
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Old 07-04-2020, 03:08 PM   #18
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Kirk,
Have you tried blending the standard elderly Kontakt VSL library sounds with this BBC library?
Perhaps the free Sonatina library will also have a few sounds you could blend in
There only strings in this particular score are basses and harp. It's all winds and brass, along with organ and vibes.
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Old 07-05-2020, 11:33 PM   #19
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If you have money coming out of your ears (or need a good tax write-off), Vienna Symphonic Orchestra makes perfect trills. Of course, its also the most expensive library around, oh and you also need a whole 'nother computer running as a slave just to run it... the basic Vienna Symphonic Library Special Edition Complete Bundle Virtual Instruments is $2100, but thats what gets used for video game scoring (I have a friend who scores for big budget video games). Or you can go all John Williams and Hans Zimmer and get their entire super library package, the Vienna Symphonic Library Vienna 6 Super Package Full Library of Virtual Instruments for the low, low price of only $13,669.00
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Old 07-06-2020, 12:20 AM   #20
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If you have money coming out of your ears (or need a good tax write-off), Vienna Symphonic Orchestra makes perfect trills. Of course, its also the most expensive library around, oh and you also need a whole 'nother computer running as a slave just to run it... the basic Vienna Symphonic Library Special Edition Complete Bundle Virtual Instruments is $2100, but thats what gets used for video game scoring (I have a friend who scores for big budget video games). Or you can go all John Williams and Hans Zimmer and get their entire super library package, the Vienna Symphonic Library Vienna 6 Super Package Full Library of Virtual Instruments for the low, low price of only $13,669.00
The version of VSL which is in full Kontakt as standard is based on samples which I believe are from around 2002. Obviously a completely different beast to modern VSL libraries, but the basic Kontakt suited my budget!
Entry level for Spitfire = £0, but you can spend many thousands on their software too.
An entry-level orchestral package for VSL today is something like £180, last time I looked. They don't produce software for those of us playing around with toy libraries, we're the bottom feeders.
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Old 07-06-2020, 12:31 AM   #21
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FWIW the current the summer sales deal on Spitfire's "Everything" package makes it currently a snip at a mere £13k, discounted from £20k.

IOW Spitfire's top package is more expensive than VSLs even when heavily discounted.
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Old 07-06-2020, 11:00 AM   #22
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I've managed to find a workaround, anyway.

I have no plans to drop a significant amount of cash on any orchestral libraries at this time. I'm just starting to learn all the different options.

So far, Spitfire and Orchestral Tools are the two companies that are closest to my preferred tonal profile. They're also really easy to use.
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Old 07-06-2020, 12:56 PM   #23
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I've managed to find a workaround, anyway.

I have no plans to drop a significant amount of cash on any orchestral libraries at this time. I'm just starting to learn all the different options.
I don't blame you.

Spitfire libraries sound superb and they have used some excellent virtual composers to highlight the quality of their products. I wish I could do justice to them.

Anyway glad you found a workaround.
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Old 07-06-2020, 01:51 PM   #24
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I don't blame you.

Spitfire libraries sound superb and they have used some excellent virtual composers to highlight the quality of their products. I wish I could do justice to them.

Anyway glad you found a workaround.
Here's a ProjectSAM trailer that features a very similar trill right over the logo at the beginning. It's not clear which library is actually making that sound. Any thoughts?

I think it's very convincing; very sixties.

https://youtu.be/vMTZncyfr4c
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Old 07-06-2020, 02:47 PM   #25
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Here's a ProjectSAM trailer that features a very similar trill right over the logo at the beginning. It's not clear which library is actually making that sound. Any thoughts?

I think it's very convincing; very sixties.

https://youtu.be/vMTZncyfr4c
I haven't listened yet (and I will) but you are better off asking someone more intimately familiar with quality orchestral libraries. I've heard plenty of them in demonstrations and can possibly could make the odd broad sweeping guess on occasion, but that's about it.
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Old 07-06-2020, 04:14 PM   #26
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I haven't listened yet (and I will) but you are better off asking someone more intimately familiar with quality orchestral libraries. I've heard plenty of them in demonstrations and can possibly could make the odd broad sweeping guess on occasion, but that's about it.
Yeah, I also posted over on vi-control
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Old 07-06-2020, 05:45 PM   #27
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Okay you are looking for the wind trill factor!

It sounds very nice anyway.

Your question confuses me. Isn't it this one single library at 99 euros?
https://projectsam.com/libraries/sym...-orchestrator/
"All sounds in trailer are from ORCHESTRATOR"
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Old 07-06-2020, 06:06 PM   #28
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It sounds like Kirk is up to his neck in trills.
Which sounds strangely familiar....

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Old 07-07-2020, 06:29 AM   #29
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It sounds like Kirk is up to his neck in trills.
Which sounds strangely familiar....

They actually claimed no animals suffered during the making of that show, but that seems unlikely after what followed just a decade or so later. William Shatner forced one of those poor unfortunate little critters to cling rigidly onto his bald pate in TJ Hooker. They even dyed the poor little bastard, and gave it a perm!

https://images.app.goo.gl/Na9FEk2UCU373qji9
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Old 07-07-2020, 08:12 AM   #30
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William Shatner forced one of those poor unfortunate little critters to cling rigidly onto his bald pate in TJ Hooker.
Well, it's not illegal if the president does it....
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Old 07-07-2020, 08:44 AM   #31
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Well, it's not illegal if the president does it....
Now that's a serious abuse of Elnett and candy floss.

Recently discovered that the certain someone we are discussing here didn't actually have a helicopter to his name when he starred on a TV show that made him a household name.
He insisted on the TV company hiring and branding one for his big entrances to make him look like the big cheese, or big cheesy orange puff ball. Yep his TV persona was fake news.
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Old 07-07-2020, 08:59 AM   #32
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We might be drifting off topic here. What was the topic again? Was it reproductive fitness?
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Old 07-07-2020, 09:02 AM   #33
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Okay you are looking for the wind trill factor!

It sounds very nice anyway.

Your question confuses me. Isn't it this one single library at 99 euros?
https://projectsam.com/libraries/sym...-orchestrator/
"All sounds in trailer are from ORCHESTRATOR"
I'm thinking this refers to everything after the splash screen.
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Old 07-07-2020, 09:06 AM   #34
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We might be drifting off topic here. What was the topic again? Was it reproductive fitness?
That's impossible. Concerns about one's fertility usually imply one is visible to women.
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Old 07-07-2020, 09:07 AM   #35
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It sounds like Kirk is up to his neck in trills.
Which sounds strangely familiar....

They might've closed that door, for God's sake
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Old 07-07-2020, 09:23 AM   #36
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Oh well, at least there's this:

1 Gigabyte free Project Sam library.

https://projectsam.com/library-categ...ree-orchestra/
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Old 07-07-2020, 01:10 PM   #37
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Oh well, at least there's this:

1 Gigabyte free Project Sam library.

https://projectsam.com/library-categ...ree-orchestra/
I have this. I used it for cymbal rolls.

ProjectSAM tells me the library used for that particular sting is Lumina. That's a very cool library. It's right in my wheelhouse.
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Old 07-07-2020, 01:19 PM   #38
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Wheelhouse?

400 spondoolicks for that library. It's probably worth the money when you can do it justice. Otherwise it would be waiting to see if appears in the sales, if it was my money.
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Old 07-07-2020, 02:14 PM   #39
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I'm diving deeply into BBCSO Discover lately. The articulations are quite limited, so'm trying to find a way to make convincing woodwind trills. I've tried playing them, but they're either smearing and not really sounding like trills at all or machine-gunning.

Is there a JS MIDI plugin to help me out?

That's going to be difficult to do realistically without a dedicated sample. You could try to fake it using a legato sample and then vary the note lengths, simulating a trill. Keep in mind that trills can be either half note or whole note trill, and either measured or unmeasured.
Attached Files
File Type: mid Flute trill.mid (438 Bytes, 69 views)
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Old 07-07-2020, 06:11 PM   #40
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Wheelhouse?

400 spondoolicks for that library. It's probably worth the money when you can do it justice. Otherwise it would be waiting to see if appears in the sales, if it was my money.
I never buy things full price. Retail is for suckers, to quote Cosmo Kramer.

I got bx_opto and bx_limiter for $10 USD apiece last month. I can wait for the right deal.

Palatte is also growing on me. I had a closer look at the individual options and they looked quite useful. The demo tracks sounded very convincing as well.
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