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Old 12-16-2013, 08:48 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argitoth View Post
Kontakt has group envelopes, so each sample could be placed in its own group.
A group in Kontakt is basically the same thing as one instance of RSK5 so you can do the same thing with RSK5. Of course it's not very practical to do that, neither with Kontakt or RSK5.

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But lets not compare RS5K to Kontakt5. The only reason I use Kontakt is because I don't have a choice. RS5K could easily fill a void that Kontakt continues to ignore. But RS5K needs some more features first.
I basically agree with you about some of this Argitoth, but I'm not sure what you mean by "RS5K could easily fill a void that Kontakt continues to ignore", could you explain?
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:52 PM   #162
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1. needs proper random/round robin sample playback via some kind of "alternative sample list".
2. uhhh... I think that's all I need right now.

Edit: The void is a simple sampler that can be used to package samples in an intuitive way. There may be other products currently that fill this void, but REAPER needs to do it as well. REAPER can do it better.

Oh

2. multichannel sample playback, full multichannel support, multichannel wav routing, etc. Not even Kontakt has properly implemented multichannel support... maybe RS5K has this already, haven't played with it.
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:57 PM   #163
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Okay, I made some tests today with the Min Vol in RSK5. The Min Vol is basically the Velocity Intensity.

I was quite surprised and a little disappointed at the results. The lowest you can go with the Min Vol that makes any difference is -66.2db, anything below that will yield the same exact results. The corresponding output level is -25.2db and that's not very low.

Here's how I setup the tests.

> I used one 440 sine wave Sample normalized to 0.0db.

> The main Volume on RSK5 was set to 0.0db which results in a 0.0db output level when a midi note with a velocity of 127 is played.

> I played back 16 different velocity levels starting with 7 and increasing by 8. In other words the velocity levels were 7, 15, 23, 31, 39, 47, 55, 63, 71, 79, 87, 95, 103, 111, 119, and 127. The reason for using these levels is that if you load 16 samples into RSK5 the basic spacing for each sample is 8. I started with 7 because that's the top velocity of the first sample. 15 is the top of the 2nd sample, 23 is top of the 3rd, so on and so forth.

Because of the narrow margin (-25.2db is not a very low output), I just used 4 different Min Vol settings. However, I think they demonstrate what's happening. Here's a chart showing the results.



Altough you can set the Min Vol all the way down to -inf, it doesn't do any good, because anything below -66.2db has the same exact results as as shown by the red line above.

It would be nice if we could get a much lower output level. I think a Min Vol setting of -inf should at least go down to a -60.0db output level when a velocity from 1 to 7 is used. The reason being, we really need that kind of headroom for normalized samples. Right now normalized samples will not work the best in RSK5.

To show a contrast, here's the similar results for Kontakts Velocity Intensity levels. The velocity levels are only different because they start at 8 instead of 7.



Using normalized samples in Kontakt I usually use a setting of around 75% to 78% which will give you a low output of around -32.0db when a low velocity is used.

Here you can see them side by side.

https://stash.reaper.fm/19057/Z%20Sid...%25%29%201.png
I just downloaded the latest reaper version.
Want to test the new rs5k.

Without correct velocity/dB conversion this plugin is still pretty useless, i think. (Unless you are using it strictly for techno or drum machine beats, where velocity doesn't play such a big role.)

Would be cool if this can be fixed. (A more advanced js choke plugin would be also nice.)

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Old 12-17-2013, 06:02 AM   #164
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Like I said, RS5K could be an awesome sampler with a few additions.
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Old 12-17-2013, 06:13 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by witti View Post
Without correct velocity/dB conversion this plugin is still pretty useless, i think. (Unless you are using it strictly for techno or drum machine beats, where velocity doesn't play such a big role.)
Hi witti, if you have enough sample layers recorded evenly with a reasonable minimum db level it works pretty well.

I will be posting Analogues Drum's Big Mono sometime today or tomorrow in RSK5 along with some of my own samples and it's really not too bad.
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Old 12-17-2013, 06:39 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argitoth View Post
1. needs proper random/round robin sample playback via some kind of "alternative sample list".
2. uhhh... I think that's all I need right now.
Humm, are you saying Kontakt "needs proper random/round robin sample playback"? I think Kontakt has a great way to program RRs/Random playback and if you do it via a script you're totally unlimited as to what you can do.


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Originally Posted by Argitoth View Post
Like I said, RS5K could be an awesome sampler with a few additions.
That's true.

>Right now it's rather difficult to program a tuned instrument and get it setup across the notes properly. Unless I'm missing something I think it still takes one instance of RSK5 per sample to do this.

>It also needs the ability to control it's parameters with CC-Controllers.

>It would be great to have a DFD mode.

On the bright side with the new updates, I think RSK5 has become the best free drum sample player out there.

Like witti says, it could maybe have a better choke but I think the work around works just as well as a good choke. Even better because you can program the amount of release.
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Old 12-17-2013, 06:43 AM   #167
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Hi Tod !

In my post i was more talking about samples that are already normalized.

I think many of the available sample-sets are not.(Big Mono).

Then rs5k might already work very well.

With normalized samples it is almost impossible to add something like 'ghost notes'. Every note, no matter which velocity/min vol setting, is a 'punch in the face' (so to speak).

There is a huge difference between a drumkit played back with an sfz player or played back with rs5k. rs5k sounds better to me (the sound itself), but the sfz player sounds more like human player.
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Old 12-17-2013, 07:16 AM   #168
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With normalized samples it is almost impossible to add something like 'ghost notes'. Every note, no matter which velocity/min vol setting, is a 'punch in the face' (so to speak).

There is a huge difference between a drumkit played back with an sfz player or played back with rs5k. rs5k sounds better to me (the sound itself), but the sfz player sounds more like human player.
Yes, you're right, and that's what I was getting at with my post concerning the Min Vol.

It's been years since I used a sfz player, back in the 90s somewhere.

I haven't actually tried RSK5 with a good normalized kit yet, basically because I don't have one. Even if it's normaized it still needs the many multi layers to sound dynamic.
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Old 12-17-2013, 03:37 PM   #169
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Okay I finally got the drums programmed in RSK5 I've been talking about.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=132576
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Old 12-23-2013, 01:12 AM   #170
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I have a suggestion concerning the automatic velocity layer mapping. How about adding some kind of "velocity mapping curve" slider which gives you ability to set more velocity layers to high range (100-127) and less to low range (0-100). Or vice versa.
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Old 12-23-2013, 04:14 PM   #171
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I have a suggestion concerning the automatic velocity layer mapping. How about adding some kind of "velocity mapping curve" slider which gives you ability to set more velocity layers to high range (100-127) and less to low range (0-100). Or vice versa.
Hi Anomaly, I agree with you but I don't think it can be implemented with a slider. I really don't see how it can be done except with a matrix of some kind.

Maybe something can be put in in the [list] but it would have to be somehow detailed and fairly simple to use. At least I think so.
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Old 12-23-2013, 08:51 PM   #172
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I have a suggestion concerning the automatic velocity layer mapping. How about adding some kind of "velocity mapping curve" slider which gives you ability to set more velocity layers to high range (100-127) and less to low range (0-100). Or vice versa.
You can achieve this to some degree by adding duplicate samples, although it is not ideal...not much in rs5k is ideal, but it can do the job for most things as is. If we're talking ideal, I have a long list of requests.

Btw, I started a rs5k thread, here: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...=1#post1291426
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Old 12-24-2013, 10:27 AM   #173
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You can achieve this to some degree by adding duplicate samples,
Yeah, I thought of that too, RSK5 is doing a pretty good job of evenly dividing the layers up across the velocities so a little clever maneuvering of the samples might get the desirable results.
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Old 12-27-2013, 01:10 AM   #174
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Hi Anomaly, I agree with you but I don't think it can be implemented with a slider. I really don't see how it can be done except with a matrix of some kind.

Maybe something can be put in in the [list] but it would have to be somehow detailed and fairly simple to use. At least I think so.
Greetings,

Thanks for your input. I have to admit that I have not played much with the new features yet, but if I understood it correctly, you select a bunch of samples which rs5000 maps automatically into velocity ranges? (There is no means to manually adjust the velocity ranges with the lists). Assuming that is correct, I don't see a problem to adjust the mapping with a single slider. Instead of linear approach, the slider could change it between log<->lin<->exp.
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Old 12-27-2013, 10:00 AM   #175
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Greetings,

Thanks for your input. I have to admit that I have not played much with the new features yet, but if I understood it correctly, you select a bunch of samples which rs5000 maps automatically into velocity ranges? (There is no means to manually adjust the velocity ranges with the lists). Assuming that is correct, I don't see a problem to adjust the mapping with a single slider. Instead of linear approach, the slider could change it between log<->lin<->exp.
Hi Anomaly, okay, I think I understand what you're suggesting.

Would it be kind of a 3-way switch or would it be a continuous curve from LOG <-> Linear <-> Exponential?

Of course it would be best if we could adjust the individual samples.

Also what brainwreck suggested could work quite well, using duplicate samples.

For instance, if you have 16 sample layers and you want to make the lower velocity layers available further up the volocity scale. By adding 8 more instances of the lowest sample, that would put the top of the 1st sample at around 47 which in turn would split the rest of the 15 samples up between the 48 to 127 velocity levels that are left.

Like I mentioned above, depending on the samples and how you wanted them to lay, a little clever maneuvering of the samples might get the desirable results.
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Old 12-27-2013, 01:52 PM   #176
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I'd like to link to my feature request about ReaSamplomatic in here, I do hope you take it in consideration as it is very simple, just auto looping a sample if it has loop point info (the way you normally would in any sampler...).

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=132874

By the way, whoever asked for DFD option, isn't that already possible? Just set the Cache at the bottom right to 0 MB. Or am I wrong? I found it uses streaming exclusively if you set to that. Basically that's how much you want to give to it to cache samples, if they are smaller than that. But the operating system already caches disk activity.

My end request would be for it to become a very simple multi-sampler, with just samples triggering on notes/velocities (kind of like a sf2 player but flexible). I can do that already, even if a bit painfully, by just programming every note/velocity group combination to a specific velocity for RS5k to trigger, in JS. But would be nice if it had multi-sample support for notes as well not just velocity.

Well the loop one is really important IMO... some samples are just meant to be looped the way they were made
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Old 12-27-2013, 05:38 PM   #177
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I'd like to link to my feature request about ReaSamplomatic in here, I do hope you take it in consideration as it is very simple, just auto looping a sample if it has loop point info (the way you normally would in any sampler...).

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=132874
Hi kenz, I did make a reply there.

Quote:
By the way, whoever asked for DFD option, isn't that already possible? Just set the Cache at the bottom right to 0 MB. Or am I wrong? I found it uses streaming exclusively if you set to that. Basically that's how much you want to give to it to cache samples, if they are smaller than that. But the operating system already caches disk activity.
Huummm. is this true?

So, if you have many many samples loaded and the amount of RAM used is say, 900mb, then if you set the Cache to 0mb, then the 900mb should become 200mb or 300mb?

If I understand it correctly, if it's truly in DFD mode then only a small portion of the front of the sample will be loaded into RAM. This could be any where from 32 to 128 KB, maybe a little more.

This would be good and very important to know kenz, if it is true.
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Old 12-27-2013, 09:25 PM   #178
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I think that it is doing what it says on the tin - cache any samples smaller than [n] MB, which is not what DFD does, as Tod described.
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Old 01-09-2014, 12:43 PM   #179
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878546321, 78546321, 78546321, 78546321, 78546321
Was that with Round Robin checked?
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Old 01-13-2014, 12:30 PM   #180
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Was that with Round Robin checked?
Sorry G-Sun, I didn't see this and yes, it was with Round Robin checked. :}
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:32 PM   #181
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Sorry G-Sun, I didn't see this and yes, it was with Round Robin checked. :}
Ok, then it's a sort of bug I guess.
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Old 01-14-2014, 09:08 AM   #182
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So, if you have many many samples loaded and the amount of RAM used is say, 900mb, then if you set the Cache to 0mb, then the 900mb should become 200mb or 300mb?

If I understand it correctly, if it's truly in DFD mode then only a small portion of the front of the sample will be loaded into RAM. This could be any where from 32 to 128 KB, maybe a little more.

This would be good and very important to know kenz, if it is true.
Well, for me DFD is simply just sample read from disk and not put in RAM, precache or not (i.e direct from disk). Basically a way to not cache it / load it in RAM, right?

I'm pretty sure if you set it at 0MB it doesn't put it up in RAM (no sample is smaller than zero), just like audio items in the tracks. Meaning, they are streamed from disk as you playback, not loaded in RAM. But to be sure we'll need Justin or some dev to reply to it.

Sorry for late response... completely forgot of this thread.
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Old 01-14-2014, 09:56 AM   #183
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Well, for me DFD is simply just sample read from disk and not put in RAM, precache or not (i.e direct from disk). Basically a way to not cache it / load it in RAM, right?

I'm pretty sure if you set it at 0MB it doesn't put it up in RAM (no sample is smaller than zero), just like audio items in the tracks. Meaning, they are streamed from disk as you playback, not loaded in RAM. But to be sure we'll need Justin or some dev to reply to it.

Sorry for late response... completely forgot of this thread.
Hi kenz, Justin has already confirmed that all the samples are loaded into ram. Actually they're loaded into ram at 32-bit.
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:44 AM   #184
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"Okay, I made some tests today with the Min Vol in RSK5. The Min Vol is basically the Velocity Intensity.

I was quite surprised and a little disappointed at the results. The lowest you can go with the Min Vol that makes any difference is -66.2db, anything below that will yield the same exact results. The corresponding output level is -25.2db and that's not very low. [...] "

Velocity-dB relation should be improved in this area as well, its still a bit hard to make ghost notes properly!!

Its hard to program the velocities on a shaker pattern for e.g.

If this gets "fixed" RSO5000 could become my default sampler for drums

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Old 01-15-2014, 08:02 AM   #185
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I was quite surprised and a little disappointed at the results. The lowest you can go with the Min Vol that makes any difference is -66.2db, anything below that will yield the same exact results. The corresponding output level is -25.2db and that's not very low. [...] "

Velocity-dB relation should be improved in this area as well, its still a bit hard to make ghost notes properly!!
Heh heh, yes, you basically confirmed my post here.

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=141
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Old 01-15-2014, 08:58 AM   #186
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Heh heh, yes, you basically confirmed my post here.

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=141
Does it make sense making a new FR?

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Old 01-15-2014, 09:09 AM   #187
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Do the devs already know this? Does it make sense making a new FR?
I'm not sure j.herran, I'm pretty sure Justin is aware of it.

It does diminish the use of certain samples, for example, normalized samples won't have much in the way of dynamics. If you're clever in the way you render the levels of your samples you can get better results.

If you'd like to make a FR go for it. Feel free to us my graph if you want.
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:50 PM   #188
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Hi kenz, Justin has already confirmed that all the samples are loaded into ram. Actually they're loaded into ram at 32-bit.
That's very interesting, because it doesn't make sense for me, how does that work precisely? I'm very confused because I load up a 15MB .mp3 for testing purposes and my RAM goes from 45MB usage (almost empty new session) to... 45MB (if I set cache to 0) but if I turn up the cache it goes up alot... so I assume it's DFD since it doesn't increase my RAM usage at all?

Or am I missing something
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Old 01-15-2014, 04:05 PM   #189
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I'm not sure j.herran, I'm pretty sure Justin is aware of it.

It does diminish the use of certain samples, for example, normalized samples won't have much in the way of dynamics. If you're clever in the way you render the levels of your samples you can get better results.

If you'd like to make a FR go for it. Feel free to us my graph if you want.
If the devs already know I probably won't make a new FR

But anyway thanks Tod for letting me use your graphs in case i change my mind!!

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Old 01-15-2014, 06:16 PM   #190
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That's very interesting, because it doesn't make sense for me, how does that work precisely? I'm very confused because I load up a 15MB .mp3 for testing purposes and my RAM goes from 45MB usage (almost empty new session) to... 45MB (if I set cache to 0) but if I turn up the cache it goes up alot... so I assume it's DFD since it doesn't increase my RAM usage at all?

Or am I missing something
Hi kenz, here is where I started the discussion concerning DFD vrs RAM in RSK5.

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=154

Here is one of Justins replies.

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=159

There was more that transpired in another pre-release thread, but I don't remember where they are and I think that is the gist of it
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Old 01-15-2014, 06:23 PM   #191
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If the devs already know I probably won't make a new FR

But anyway thanks Tod for letting me use your graphs in case i change my mind!!
Actually I have to thank you j.herran, because you came up the same conclusions by making your own tests and they line up exactly with my own.
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Old 01-16-2014, 02:38 PM   #192
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Thanks Tod, for the link, I somehow missed the previous page

That is certainly weird for me -- are you positive you set the Cache to 0 MB? In that case, it makes no sense but I suppose then DFD could be a feature request although I'm not sure how easy that would be to add

The only reason I think of it being easy is because, it is integrated in REAPER hence it can probably use reaper's disk streaming/DFD from audio items... it already uses all the formats etc.
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Old 02-13-2014, 06:30 AM   #193
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Hi

When loading some previously saved songs, before the RS5000 "samples" folder thing, and saving the song, I expect this "samples" folder to be created, but it's not.
It seems I have to drag and drop the samples again over RS5000 for it to save them "the new way".
Is there a workaround to this ?

Thanks
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Old 02-13-2014, 04:21 PM   #194
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Hi

When loading some previously saved songs, before the RS5000 "samples" folder thing, and saving the song, I expect this "samples" folder to be created, but it's not.
It seems I have to drag and drop the samples again over RS5000 for it to save them "the new way".
Is there a workaround to this ?
Hi geoslake, I wish I could help you but I didn't use RSK5 until after this update. Are you saying you have older projects that used to call up and load the samples but they're not doing that anymore?

Maybe some one who used RSK5 prior to the update might chime in.
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Old 02-15-2014, 02:18 AM   #195
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No no, they load fine, I just expected that opening a project created with old RS5k and saving it with new RS5K would make it use the new folder hierarchy system.

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Hi geoslake, I wish I could help you but I didn't use RSK5 until after this update. Are you saying you have older projects that used to call up and load the samples but they're not doing that anymore?

Maybe some one who used RSK5 prior to the update might chime in.
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:24 AM   #196
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Just trying to get my head around RS5k. I'm on a laptop so I can't test it at different velocity levels.

I've loaded in eight snare samples into one instance of RS5k; how do I set the velocity ranges of each sample? It seems to accept only one velocity range for all samples, there's something I'm missing here or I just don't get it.


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Old 02-15-2014, 10:45 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by geoslake View Post
No no, they load fine, I just expected that opening a project created with old RS5k and saving it with new RS5K would make it use the new folder hierarchy system.
Aah I see, I'm still not sure. During all my testing and saving it did pretty much what I expected, saving the projects left the samples where they were.

I haven't really had a chance to check it out thoroughly, so I don't have any definitive answers.

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Originally Posted by planetnine View Post
Just trying to get my head around RS5k. I'm on a laptop so I can't test it at different velocity levels.

I've loaded in eight snare samples into one instance of RS5k; how do I set the velocity ranges of each sample? It seems to accept only one velocity range for all samples, there's something I'm missing here or I just don't get it.
Hi planetnine, do your samples have different volume levels or are they normalized?

Here's my original post regarding RSK5 and how it deals with velocity intensity. As you will see, it's the Min Vol that scales the velocity intensity.

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=141

The way I'm doing it right now is that I determine how low I want the volume to be with a velocity value of around 5 to 10. Then I use the graph I show on that post to determine how low the volume should be for the softest sample.

I made that graph a little smaller and created a pdf that I put in my Reaper folder along side the Manual. Here's a zipped copy of it if you'd like to have it.

https://stash.reaper.fm/19703/RSK5%20...ty%20Graph.zip

Also spk77 recently put a great script together just for adjusting sample volumes that is a huge time saver and I recommend grabbing it. Basically you select the samples, put in a the lowest value in db and then the highest value. It adjusts them perfectly.

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=458
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Old 02-15-2014, 02:23 PM   #198
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They are different volume levels, Tod.

I don't want to be tweaking the source files really, I had thought you could match each one to a MIDI velocity range and then repeat the whole thing three or four times with alternate sample sets to round-robin it.

The front panel appears to be for the whole set, not per sample. I was hoping it could replace Short Circuit, but it seems incapable of setting samples to velocity range.

...or have I got it round my neck here..?


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Old 02-15-2014, 04:01 PM   #199
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They are different volume levels, Tod.

I don't want to be tweaking the source files really, I had thought you could match each one to a MIDI velocity range and then repeat the whole thing three or four times with alternate sample sets to round-robin it.

The front panel appears to be for the whole set, not per sample. I was hoping it could replace Short Circuit, but it seems incapable of setting samples to velocity range.

...or have I got it round my neck here..?
No, there's no way to set individual velocity ranges, at least not yet. When you drag them in it divides them up quite evenly but you can't adjust them differently.

If you get clever, you might be able to load the same samples in various ways to get what you want but then that adds unnecessarily to the RAM.
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:28 PM   #200
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Ah, ok. I'll stop trying then


Thanks for taking the time to answer, Tod.



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