01-16-2019, 09:55 AM | #1 |
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Native Linux Reaper vs Windows Reaper through WINE
I was just curious, and wondering what the pros/cons are of using Native Reaper vs Reaper for Windows in WINE.
Native Reaper would be more stable when run in Linux, I'm certain. But what other pros and cons are there between these two methodologies of using Reaper in Linux? Examples: Higher/lower CPU or RAM usage with Windows Reaper? Higher/lower latency? Or is stability basically it? How stable is Reaper for Windows when run through WINE in Linux? |
01-16-2019, 03:54 PM | #2 |
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First, Reaper is not an ordinary daw...it's codebase is
tiny, compared to the competing behemoths, while it's functionality and the enjoyment factor is stellar. I can use the linux version alongside the windows-wine version, and have the best of both worlds, and record the joint output to a third-party recording app. So it's not necessarily one vs the other. My opinion is that both reaper versions are ready for audio production duties, and when it comes to using windows plugins, the linux version with linvst/airwave wrappers is very close to matching the wine-windows version for providing usable plugins. The more we experiment, test, probe, and report our results, the faster the situation advances. Thanks to the many people here, who are quick to share on so many levels! The jackd server and gui's allow linux stand-alone softwares to be patched into reaper, while as a user, I may lack some total-session saving capabilities. But if I make something _THAT_ good, I make a textfile with the details, should I want to revisit the process after the song was 'finalized'. 74 seconds well spent. It's going to be a good new year to make music in reaper. |
01-16-2019, 06:00 PM | #3 |
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Right. I understand this, but I'm curious about the pros/cons of each running on a linux system. Is it just that the native version is more stable than running a Windows version through WINE? Or is there more to it? Better CPU/RAM usage? Lower latencies? Surely there must be pros and cons for running the native version of Reaper in a Linux environment vs runing a Windows version through WINE in a linux environment. I understand we can use both, but I want to know the strengths and weaknesses of these two different methodologies. :-)
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01-16-2019, 06:24 PM | #4 |
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I haven't noticed any speed/latency differences,
using guitars/keyboards. Some people track those specs carefully, and may have posted the numbers in recent topics. Once a system is configured for audio, I think hard-drives will be the main chance to experience a bottleneck, and next, the individual softwares level of optimization, and/or sane implementation. The more large soundfiles that need be moved around, or held in ram, the more you need a high end system spec. If an app using large sound files has good disk-streaming, things should be OK on typical drives/SSDs on the shelves these days. The upcoming SampleTank V4 is claiming much improved handling of such things, hope it works as well in linux as the current V3 does. There are some Kontakt users here, who seem happy with their setups. Cheers |
01-17-2019, 09:13 AM | #5 |
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Well, if there is no difference between the two, it seems to me that it may be easier to just set up a Windows Reaper session in WINE and run all of the Windows Plugins...
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01-17-2019, 03:18 PM | #6 | |
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I can't get anywhere near that kind of latency using the Windows version running in WINE. |
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01-17-2019, 05:32 PM | #7 | |
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So, for the native Linux Reaper pros, we have: * Greater application stability * Much lower latency I'll add another one over running Windows Reaper in WINE: Native compiled VST plugins run better (more stable), and there are some unique ones too, I believe. |
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01-18-2019, 03:51 AM | #8 |
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I think the choice depends a lot on how many Windows plugins you use. The native Linux REAPER will allow lower latency and use less CPU than the WIndows version under wine. But if all the plugins you are using are also working via wine, I think there is a higher success rate running them within Windows Reaper in wine than via a bridge like linvst. And certain things (like drag and drop of midi from EZDrummer to Reaper tracks works with Reaper in Wine, but not in Native Linux Reaper. Of course, there are workarounds (and with EZDummer I usually just export the song midi from the plugin after composing the whole songs drum part in the plugin and import the midi back onto the track). In the end, I decided Native Linux Reaper and the few windows plugins I use bridged with linvst was the best for me. But if I was dependent on a bunch of Windows stuff, I might go the other way.
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01-18-2019, 07:23 AM | #9 |
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I haven't tested for a long time, but I don't think there is any great difference between running it in wine or native linux. I wouldn't agree with the lower latency nor the more stable statement. If you use a lot of windows VSTs it's probably preferable to run reaper in wine. Faster loading, etc. Still in wine you'd lose the theming of native controls and linux vsts.
I'd love to see someone testing a few projects though! It would really be the best way to tell the difference. Probably best to test with JACK/wineasio and using the wine-rt or the equivalent wine-staging functionality.
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01-18-2019, 10:04 AM | #10 |
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I'm running a lowlatency kernel, but I never did any tweaking to WINE to run REAPER for Windows, since there was a native Linux version by the time I started using Linux full time.
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01-18-2019, 03:20 PM | #11 | |
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I'd be deaf. But it's great to know such capabilities can be achieved. Some users (like me) don't need them now, but may change their setups, expand their creations, or aquire something of value requiring such performance. I hope to travel the path of least resistance, with many options on the table, while maximizing productivity. Nobody guarantees us another tuesday. Cheeers |
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01-18-2019, 04:53 PM | #12 | |
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Mint 18 with i7 cpu, 4 cores 8 threads @ 3.4 ghz wine-staging 4.5 kernel 4.4.0-21-generic, based solely on qjackctl's reported cpu use in it's gui, while playing frenetically, with/without sustain pedal etc The numbers are based on a peak seen at least twice, while the normal rate was 2% to 4% lower linux Reaper with six U-he linux ACE 1.4 default sound cpu = 30% windows Reaper with six U-he windows ACE 1.4 default sound cpu = 24% ---------------------------------------------------------------- linux Reaper with three U-he linux ZebraHZ vst3 default sound cpu = 40% windows Reaper with three U-he windows ZebraHZ vst3 default sound cpu = 36% (ACE has not been updated recently, ZebraHZ has been, so the comparative uniformity of the differences in cpu use, might be due to the OS more than the plugins and vst host. Also, the kernel used is old and generic, most of you will get much better overall results. Also, the linux ports are primarily a one-man-show, and appear to be competitive with the full mac/win team efforts. Great work done by Alexander Bique!!! And also Justin has provided a great linux daw in such a short timeframe!!! Last edited by 4duhwinnn; 01-18-2019 at 04:58 PM. Reason: mow |
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01-19-2019, 09:12 AM | #13 | |
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I had the problem in Reaper aswell as in other DAW's, so it wasn't a Reaper problem. (https://lmms.io/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27059) Since I also had other VST's not working via Wine, I had to search for other solutions. Meanwhile there's a native version, works brilliant. As I replaced the old VST's I previously used to new ones which work directly in the native version, I cannot see a reason why I would use it under wine. With Wine I also had issues with the appearance: fonts were looking slightly different, now it all shows up fine. |
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12-03-2022, 01:30 AM | #14 | |
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Linux?which Reaper?
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i am running at 10/21ms latency and for me its good enough.I am using linux Mint 21 Vanessa.Notice that now on one system you can't use the two Reaper option ,if you use yabridge because ,wine-staging won't register wineasio.dll.Another thing , the Windows VST like Kontakt 6 seem to load faster with wine than with yabridge and consument less cpu. Last edited by Nemo08; 12-03-2022 at 01:42 AM. |
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12-03-2022, 05:28 AM | #15 |
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Same with pipewire (pw-jack) on LMDE5.
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12-03-2022, 10:09 AM | #16 | |
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Edit:I quit using JACK back when I bought a Behringer UMC1820 and ADA8200 a few years ago. Since then I've used ALSA which is the closest layer to the hardware and it works flawlessly running the native Linux version of REAPER. The UMC1820/ADA8200 are dedicated for REAPER use only, and I have a UMC204HD that handles all other audio. Edit: Have you modified the file /etc/security/limits.conf and added these two entries at the bottom? (Replacing USERNAME with your user name) @USERNAME - rtprio 98 @USERNAME - memlock unlimited Giving yourself permission to run 98% real time priority and unlimited access to lock memory will make a HUGE difference if you have not made that one tweak. I switched to ALSA a few years back (my post talking about JACK was from 2019), and run both the UMC1820/ADA8200 and UMC204HD 24 bit, 48k with a 64 sample block size and 3 periods. This is what REAPER for Linux reports as latency now (1.3/2.6ms), although a loopback test shows the true full round trip latency is 8ms, which is still quick enough to monitor through REAPER. Last edited by Glennbo; 12-03-2022 at 10:24 AM. |
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12-03-2022, 11:28 AM | #17 | |
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12-03-2022, 11:34 AM | #18 |
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Wow! A theead from the past!
I mostly use everything native Linux these days, although I’ve wanted to play with Windows apps through wine and yabridge. If I were trying to run native Windows DAWs and avoid xruns, I’d be sure to use WINEASIO in WINE to avoid xruns. 🙂 |
12-03-2022, 11:35 AM | #19 | |
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Edit: I may have misunderstood—I thought you were still trying to run a Windows DAW without xruns. It appears that I am mistaken. Apologies |
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12-03-2022, 12:26 PM | #20 |
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If you aren't having any issues with latency, then I would leave it alone too.
On my system it made the difference between REAPER working hard with 128 samples being the best I could achieve vs the no sweat at all 64 samples I now use. |
12-27-2022, 03:10 PM | #21 |
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I have been running native Linux Reaper for several months now, and I think it's a lot better than running it over Wine. I used LinReaper for years and I had constant problems, had to make a million tweaks on my machine, and it was always buggy for me. Once I run Yabridge to get my Windows VSTs, the experience is nearly seamless. The only time I even notice the emulation layer is when I need to open a file explorer from within the VST GUI.
One major benefit to native Linux Reaper is that you can run native Linux plugins. However—and I'm curious about this—Windows VSTs and VSTis seem to run better than Linux VST and LV2 plugins. So far, the only times my host has crashed is when loading the Linux version of GVST plugins, and some LV2s will slow the DAW down to a crawl. This is the opposite of what I would assume. |
12-27-2022, 07:23 PM | #22 | |
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12-27-2022, 08:03 PM | #23 | |
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I switched back to LinVST and since then there have been a bunch of WINE updates, one of which I recently read caused problems with Yabridge, but I've seen no issues with LinVST through that WINE update or any others. |
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12-29-2022, 02:02 PM | #24 | |
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12-29-2022, 03:04 PM | #25 |
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There is a U-He sale going on through Native Instruments, and many of their plugins are half price. I've already got Diva, but I'm planning on picking up Hive 2 and Repro. As more and more time passes, I find fewer reasons to use anything non-native, even though I've got years of stuff packed away on disks. My current Commercial essentials list so far is:
Dive Hive 2 Repro Tal-Sampler Tal-Drum Bliss Sampler Speedrum Along with everything that is open source or free, I'm getting to the point where I can even be picky with what I use. I'd still like to pick up Uhbik, but I haven't seen that one come up on sale yet. |
12-29-2022, 04:06 PM | #26 |
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I know it's working again now, but for me, once was enough times for me to get a big Manjaro update and then have all my Windows plugins stop working.
Back in March a WINE update blew all my Windows plugins out of the water, and that is when I switched back to LinVST, which worked fine with the WINE version that Yabridge had problems with. Then in November wine-staging 7.21 blew Yabridge up, and it was advised to downgrade to 7.20 until it got fixed. Through both of the WINE updates that broke Yabridge, LinVST kept working, and that is why I'm using it. I don't like surprises, and I don't like having to downgrade stuff. I'd rather work on music than work on my computer. Last edited by Glennbo; 12-29-2022 at 04:32 PM. |
12-29-2022, 04:16 PM | #27 | |
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All the other items in that suite that make silly kazoo sounds, I have no need for. I wish he would sell the items in that suite individually. I'd buy the reverb in a heartbeat, and then add the others if priced reasonably. I am not willing though to part with $150 at Sweetwater for the whole suite. |
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12-29-2022, 06:50 PM | #28 | |
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12-29-2022, 06:57 PM | #29 |
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That's actually one thing Linux is lacking from commercial Linux providers: A quality suite of effects. Yes, there are some good Open Source packages, and I use them already. But it would be nice to get some commercial products available too. I know that "some" effects are sold, but I'm talking about a full suite, not just a reverb here or a delay there. I don't count the commercial Linux providers that use Challenge Response protection, because I just don't do C/R.
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12-30-2022, 02:34 AM | #30 | |
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I can say for a fact that there are quite a few products I would have bought had it not been for intrusive C.P., so in fact, at least in my case, it's definitely caused those companies to lose sales. It's saved me quite a bit though, so perhaps I should be grateful |
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12-30-2022, 09:13 AM | #31 | |
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12-30-2022, 09:30 AM | #32 | |
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Edit: I will add, that Yabridge does have more functionality than LinVST, like supporting drag-n-drop, Etc., but I don't use any of those features myself. I only use a handful of Windows VST instruments, and play them from a midi keyboard or V-Drums pad kit. Last edited by Glennbo; 12-30-2022 at 09:37 AM. |
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12-30-2022, 05:38 PM | #33 | |
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12-30-2022, 06:02 PM | #34 | |
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I created my .wine folder back in 2018 when I was running Xubuntu on a Intel i5. I've since built a Ryzen DAW and run Manjaro now, but the .wine folder I use today is the same one I created in 2018. Since 2018, I've personally seen only one WINE update break LinVST, https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....ghlight=rolled but I was running Yabridge for about 8 months in 2022. |
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12-30-2022, 06:05 PM | #35 | |
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12-30-2022, 06:50 PM | #36 | |
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Note: I am NOT installing any NEW Windows VST/VSTi plugins, so if installers don't work, that won't be a problem for me. Last time I installed a Windows plugin was years and years ago. |
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12-31-2022, 04:35 AM | #37 | |
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01-02-2023, 10:27 AM | #38 |
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A recent experiment has once again proven to me to be careful. Awhile back, I tried to get East West Symphonic Orchestra working via Wine. I got very close, being able to load the vsti, with all views looking normal, except the one that really mattered: there were missing fonts on the page where you load the instruments. I had switched the authorization to my machine, so no problem with the dongle, it authorized. The only issue was loading instruments.
So this thread got me thinking, if I switch to Linux for windows via wine, maybe the fonts issue won't be there. so I installed the windows version. A mini disaster unfolded. first, in order to get all my preferences in effect, I tried dragging the zip file for preferences on to my desktop, because I had trouble finding it with the windows version of Reaper. Unfortunately, the file disappeared. (I eventually located it in the desktop folder under Michael, but it was not visible on the desktop itself). I then realized to do this I had to have ilok and pace on my machine. Initial versions of these intrusive programs installed when I installed the Play software, but I would then need to get the most recent versions. I realized, I do not want that crap on my machine. It's better to live without that library, which does have some things on it I really like, but it just isn't worth the hassle. and of course, if I did everything, the thing might still nor have worked. East West, like Vienna, don't exactly make their products Linux-friendly. At least kontakt 6, and Native Access 1, work, so NI and the many third party libraries that use Kontakt do work. that has been a game changer for me. (Don't bother with NA 2 if you use Kontakt, it won't work on Linux. NI is not really Linux-friendly either; Kontakt 6 and NA 2 just happen to work. Stay with them).
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01-29-2023, 07:30 AM | #39 |
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One nice/sad thing about running the WINE REAPER instead of the Linux version is that you can set WINE to use internal system folders, and so all your plugin presets and configuration data will be filed under $WINEPREFIX rather than cluttering up ~, ~/.config, ~/.local/share, ~/Documents, ~/Music, and, possibly, ~/Desktop.
They'll still be widely scattered, of course, but at least you won't have to look at them. |
04-17-2023, 03:11 PM | #40 |
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a sort of update
WINE 8.6 + WINEASIO = Fail. Back to 8.2!
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