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04-22-2020, 03:20 AM
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#81
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
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If it's for live playing use, you can happily switch off PDC handling in the tracks.
-Michael
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04-22-2020, 03:27 AM
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#82
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markhw
This sums it up. Using plugins as an fx "pedal board" during composition within the DAW is really problematic... So many great plugins with small but non-zero latency. Right now we have to either choose between adding a full buffers-worth of latency per plugin or use only zero-latency plugins with no middle ground. As a selfish example, I just picked up the Soundtoys bundle only to discover I can't really play with my new toys because they each have a bit of latency! :SadPanda:
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Yeah I feel your pain. Ive yet to find a better plugin then echoboy. The way it distorts on high feedback. I actually own a watkins copycat but i still use echoboy everytime!
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04-22-2020, 03:32 AM
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#83
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
If it's for live playing use, you can happily switch off PDC handling in the tracks.
-Michael
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This. Great advice if you using plugins live on guitar
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04-25-2020, 06:29 AM
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#84
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berlin
Posts: 151
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Terrible advice if you want a lot of live input tracks to play in sync.
Even worse if you try to jam along on your synth/guitar/harmonica through some plugins.
I need this fixed...
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04-25-2020, 06:33 AM
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#85
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Heart of Europe
Posts: 148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Distressor
Terrible advice if you want a lot of live input tracks to play in sync.
Even worse if you try to jam along on your synth/guitar/harmonica through some plugins.
I need this fixed...
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for such use case scenario, you should actually use Vienna Ensemble Pro server(s), Reaper can manage that well
__________________
M1 MacMini (16GB, 2TB), RME ADI-2 DAC, Kali IN-8 + WS-12, DELL AW3418DW
M2 Max MacStudio (64GB, 4TB), Sonnet xMacStudio rack, RME HDSPe AIO, RME UFX III
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04-25-2020, 07:00 AM
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#86
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berlin
Posts: 151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzzsmk
for such use case scenario, you should actually use Vienna Ensemble Pro server(s), Reaper can manage that well
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Or use any other DAW than Reaper. Almost all of them handle this better.
I never have an issue with this when running Logic.
To me Vienna is great for running a lot of instrument plugins. Especially huge sample libraries. That's what it was designed for. It's not really helping with the live inputs.
It also breaks the ability to control plugins from my control surface that is connected to Reaper.
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04-28-2020, 06:10 AM
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#87
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Distressor
Terrible advice if you want a lot of live input tracks to play in sync.
Even worse if you try to jam along on your synth/guitar/harmonica through some plugins.
I need this fixed...
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yeah true I just meant for one person playing guitar through one track it would be a good temp work around
Still not good latency for me or your average producer who just wants to write music with a standard midi keyboard and some virtual instruments and plugins
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04-28-2020, 06:14 AM
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#88
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Heart of Europe
Posts: 148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Distressor
Or use any other DAW than Reaper. Almost all of them handle this better.
I never have an issue with this when running Logic.
To me Vienna is great for running a lot of instrument plugins. Especially huge sample libraries. That's what it was designed for. It's not really helping with the live inputs.
It also breaks the ability to control plugins from my control surface that is connected to Reaper.
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Logic unlike most other DAWs on the other hand doesn't support VST/VST3, Windows and many other things, so such debate is pointless,
speaking of VEP, of course you can send audio tracks from DAW into it too,
and similarly you can route as much automation control from DAW into plugins in VEP as you need, and imo is actually easier to handle large-scale than directly in any DAW
__________________
M1 MacMini (16GB, 2TB), RME ADI-2 DAC, Kali IN-8 + WS-12, DELL AW3418DW
M2 Max MacStudio (64GB, 4TB), Sonnet xMacStudio rack, RME HDSPe AIO, RME UFX III
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04-28-2020, 06:24 AM
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#89
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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I would defintly give Cockos a fair chance to fix this issue 2bh. we shouldnt be impatient. Many developers dont even care what the users think and just want money!
I have very limited experience coding and obviously have no idea how reaper is developed but for all we know it could involve a vast change to the core structure of reaper to implement this?
Although you might imagine its an easy fix because you can solve this problem 100% by disabling PDC and adding up the latency of all your plugins on a track and just delaying it youself by the correct amount with a JS plugin.(Imagine everyone doing this in all the other daws out there lol)
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04-28-2020, 06:44 AM
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#90
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzzsmk
Logic unlike most other DAWs on the other hand doesn't support VST/VST3, Windows and many other things, so such debate is pointless,
speaking of VEP, of course you can send audio tracks from DAW into it too,
and similarly you can route as much automation control from DAW into plugins in VEP as you need, and imo is actually easier to handle large-scale than directly in any DAW
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I dont see how being MacOS or logic or audio units make this debate pointless? logic is not some random oldskool defunkt software? it actually does some things really well and have you ever thought about why all popular developers make AU versions of their plugins. its not because Audio Units are pointless!
This is coming from someone who strictly uses PC's and Android phones by the way(Although I have been forced to own/use macbooks and mac pros in the past in various studios and throughout university)
excuse me if your just trolling though lol you def go me if u are!
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04-29-2020, 09:23 PM
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#91
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
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A solution seems to be scheduled. See https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=235341 :
- + Delay compensation: FX chains can be set to compensate delay Per-FX, Per-chain, or not at all
- + Delay compensation: in record input FX and monitoring FX, when not in ignore delay compensation mode, dry signal is now kept synchronized to wet signal (change from previous behavior)
- + Delay compensation: master FX chain can be set to compensate delay at the hardware-send level
-Michael
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04-30-2020, 03:38 AM
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#92
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berlin
Posts: 151
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Awesome!
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05-10-2020, 03:49 AM
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#93
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
A solution seems to be scheduled. See https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=235341 :
- + Delay compensation: FX chains can be set to compensate delay Per-FX, Per-chain, or not at all
- + Delay compensation: in record input FX and monitoring FX, when not in ignore delay compensation mode, dry signal is now kept synchronized to wet signal (change from previous behavior)
- + Delay compensation: master FX chain can be set to compensate delay at the hardware-send level
-Michael
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I CANT WAIT!!!! this is great news. I can finally switch fully to reaper
I may also have to become the reaper equivlient of a Jehovah's Witness and preach to the unconverted......maybe a touch less enoying though
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05-10-2020, 10:16 AM
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#94
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 33
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Woot! Can't wait! Thank you Cockos!
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05-10-2020, 03:34 PM
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#95
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markhw
Woot! Can't wait! Thank you Cockos!
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You can start testing now, if you don't mind using a pre-release build (use caution when using this in a production environment!). Your feedback will be welcome!
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05-10-2020, 03:53 PM
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#96
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
You can start testing now, if you don't mind using a pre-release build (use caution when using this in a production environment!). Your feedback will be welcome!
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FWIW Justin - I've been testing this feature since it's release on heavy demanding projects and I've had zero issues. Depending on the type of project and FX being used it can give a very noticeable performance boost. I haven't noticed any negative effects as of yet.
Thanks again!
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05-11-2020, 05:52 AM
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#97
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
You can start testing now, if you don't mind using a pre-release build (use caution when using this in a production environment!). Your feedback will be welcome!
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Amazing stuff greatly appreciated! working 100% here im getting simular plugin counts and cpu utilization but at a greatly reduced overall project latency now!
bit off topic but whoever thought of multistage track FX render/freezing needs to be nominated for a goddamn noble peace prize! so good for big sessions on a laptop
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07-11-2023, 04:26 PM
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#98
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2022
Posts: 55
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Sorry for the three years delay but, let's try to compensate for that (sorry again).
@mschnell
What is the technical explanation for: The point here is that if the PDC is greater than zero but smaller than one audio block, technically a complete audio block of latency needs to be applied to the other tracks
It seems like pro tools doesn't work that way and just applies the reported plugin latency to the other tracks delaying them.
i.e. the 320 samples from natural phase proQ3 would delay all the other tracks by 320 samples.
My buffer size is set to 512 samples.
Thanks in advance
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07-11-2023, 11:30 PM
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#99
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
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Meanwhile, Reaper has been updated to first add the PDCs in a track and than use the next full multiple of the block size.
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07-12-2023, 07:16 AM
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#100
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2022
Posts: 55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
Meanwhile, Reaper has been updated to first add the PDCs in a track and than use the next full multiple of the block size.
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Yeah, I noticed it.
However I don't understand tachnically why it has to delay at minimum by one block size instead of just the exact amount of samples latency.
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07-12-2023, 11:09 AM
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#101
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
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delay between which and what ?
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07-12-2023, 02:17 PM
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#102
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feedbackloop
Yeah, I noticed it.
However I don't understand tachnically why it has to delay at minimum by one block size instead of just the exact amount of samples latency.
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the block/buffer is there to allow your cpu time to process the audio in managable chunks is a very very very simplified explanation, so even without any plugins used your DAW/computer is still processing audio in full buffers/blocks. which everything has to fit into basicly
Pro tools will state that there is 320 samples of PDC but in your case another full 512 sample buffer will be used to fit those 320 samples within. In fact it doesnt matter if your plugin has 1 sample PDC or 500 samples PDC your still getting that same full 512 sample block of delay!
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07-12-2023, 02:35 PM
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#103
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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from a the perspective of someone just trying to use a DAW with low latency I can keep it straight to the point......
try and use 0 sample delay plugins in general.
although once you use any plugins with PDC just keep the total PDC per track below the audio buffer you set (512 in your example) and dont go over or u get a good chunk of latency added that you may or may not be able to feel when playing/recording instrument plugins
if playing/recording latency doesnt matter that much for what u do then just ignore all of the above and keep a high buffer to go easy on your cpu/system!
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07-12-2023, 10:07 PM
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#104
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentuk
from a the perspective of someone just trying to use a DAW with low latency I can keep it straight to the point......
try and use 0 sample delay plugins in general.
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In such situations (usually "live" playing/mixing) it mostly is better to disable PDC for appropriate plugins, as delaying just the track that holds those is much less harmful than delaying the complete mix.
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07-13-2023, 01:04 PM
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#105
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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I always forget about the people doing live stuff! Listen to mschnell ^^^ that’s the absolute best way to handle PDC in critical live situations.
For most people doing common music production/writing/mixing(not live) it’s pretty much the opposite though, disabling PDC will normally do more harm than good so you have to adjust really depending on what your actually doing.
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