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02-05-2020, 10:20 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,719
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Inaccurate Crossfade visual representation
Hi guys,
As someone who edits audio all the time, this is very annoying to me... especially when I routinely use Equal Gain and Equal Power x-fades within the same phrase.
Below are examples of Reaper's and another DAW's (in this case Nuendo) visual representation of crossfades of a since wave at -12dB, 440 Hz. In both cases (Equal Gain and Equal Power) Reaper incorrectly displays the combined volume waveform.
Incorrect Equal Gain crossfade for Reaper (note... it should be a solid line):
Correct Equal Gain display on another DAW:
Incorrect Equal Power crossfade for Reaper for a 440 Hz sine wave (note... it should be an increase in volume... therefore a bump):
Correct Equal Power display on another DAW:
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Cheers... Andrew K
Reaper v6.80+dev0621 - June 21 2023 Catalina Mac Mini 2020 6 core i7 64GB RAM OS: Catalina 4K monitor RME RayDAT card with Sync Card and extended Light Pipe.
Last edited by Thonex; 02-05-2020 at 12:04 PM.
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02-05-2020, 06:08 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Black Forest
Posts: 5,054
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Yeah, I would say this doesn't look accurate at all.
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02-05-2020, 06:15 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Stevie_
Yeah, I would say this doesn't look accurate at all.
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Yeah... thanks. It's totally not accurate.. so it doesn't inspire confidence when doing a ton of editing where you need Equal Power and Equal Gain depending on the material.
__________________
Cheers... Andrew K
Reaper v6.80+dev0621 - June 21 2023 Catalina Mac Mini 2020 6 core i7 64GB RAM OS: Catalina 4K monitor RME RayDAT card with Sync Card and extended Light Pipe.
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02-05-2020, 10:40 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 358
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This is a much bigger deal than some may suspect. Logic had this problem problem as well and I never realized the real problem until I switched the Cubase and the waveform became accurate for me.
If we are supposed to understand what it sounds like by looking at it then it needs to be accurate
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02-06-2020, 12:37 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swi
This is a much bigger deal than some may suspect. Logic had this problem problem as well and I never realized the real problem until I switched the Cubase and the waveform became accurate for me.
If we are supposed to understand what it sounds like by looking at it then it needs to be accurate
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Thanks.
Proper visual representation is somewhat of a must I would think.
__________________
Cheers... Andrew K
Reaper v6.80+dev0621 - June 21 2023 Catalina Mac Mini 2020 6 core i7 64GB RAM OS: Catalina 4K monitor RME RayDAT card with Sync Card and extended Light Pipe.
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02-06-2020, 01:18 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Note that equal power curves aren't the same either. But that's probably not gonna change visually in Reaper, I wouldn't expect it.
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02-06-2020, 01:46 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Los Angeles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Note that equal power curves aren't the same either. But that's probably not gonna change visually in Reaper, I wouldn't expect it.
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They are both utterly inaccurate.
Wouldn't it be like one more line of code calcs (Sum of the differences etc)?
__________________
Cheers... Andrew K
Reaper v6.80+dev0621 - June 21 2023 Catalina Mac Mini 2020 6 core i7 64GB RAM OS: Catalina 4K monitor RME RayDAT card with Sync Card and extended Light Pipe.
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02-06-2020, 01:49 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Note that equal power curves aren't the same either. But that's probably not gonna change visually in Reaper, I wouldn't expect it.
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Doesn't mean it shouldn't. When what I see on the screen is different than what I hear, I start to doubt everything. And then invariably double and triple-checking things. All because what is visually represented is different than what I am hearing. Think if when you processed an audio file it did something similar. People would be pretty pissed off.
If a render or mixdown of the crossfade doesn't look like that, then the crossfade shouldn't look like that either and is a bug IMHO.
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02-06-2020, 02:04 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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No I'm saying that Reaper's xfade curve there is completely different than Cubendo's. Not sure if that's equal power at all in Reaper - it's exponential, for sure, but in the other direction.
Since these xfades are all matching a certain formula (because you can reshape the curvature), I doubt this is going to be changed without breaking everyone's projects. Which won't happen... It's more likely that a new curve would have to be added.
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02-06-2020, 02:28 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
No I'm saying that Reaper's xfade curve there is completely different than Cubendo's. Not sure if that's equal power at all in Reaper - it's exponential, for sure, but in the other direction.
Since these xfades are all matching a certain formula (because you can reshape the curvature), I doubt this is going to be changed without breaking everyone's projects. Which won't happen... It's more likely that a new curve would have to be added.
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The point here is that they are simply being drawn incorrect visually. We aren't talking about the audio itself. So what would break in that scenario? Everyone's crossfades would now look correct? That isn't going to mess up or break anyone's old sessions in any way. As opposed to all the people now who are getting messed up trying to visually match both sides of an equal gain crossfade with the current behavior.
There are times to worry about new behavior breaking old sessions. This is not one of those. A new type of curve isn't needed. It simply needs to display the ones that are there already correctly.
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02-06-2020, 02:28 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
No I'm saying that Reaper's xfade curve there is completely different than Cubendo's. Not sure if that's equal power at all in Reaper - it's exponential, for sure, but in the other direction.
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I did both Equal Power and Equal Gain in Reaper and in Nuendo. In Reaper the visual was never accurate. It should have been at unity or a bump.... never a dip. Nuendo's display is correct.
I have faith in Cockos's programmers that this wouldn't be a huge calculation.
__________________
Cheers... Andrew K
Reaper v6.80+dev0621 - June 21 2023 Catalina Mac Mini 2020 6 core i7 64GB RAM OS: Catalina 4K monitor RME RayDAT card with Sync Card and extended Light Pipe.
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02-06-2020, 02:33 PM
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#12
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,746
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This is simply the result of REAPER drawing each media item separately, rather than combining output for overlapping media. It's not a mathematically complex thing to change, but probably fairly painful programming wise. I'll take a look though.
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02-06-2020, 02:45 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
This is simply the result of REAPER drawing each media item separately, rather than combining output for overlapping media. It's not a mathematically complex thing to change, but probably fairly painful programming wise. I'll take a look though.
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Thanks for taking a look Schwa!!
Massive appreciation and respect!
__________________
Cheers... Andrew K
Reaper v6.80+dev0621 - June 21 2023 Catalina Mac Mini 2020 6 core i7 64GB RAM OS: Catalina 4K monitor RME RayDAT card with Sync Card and extended Light Pipe.
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02-06-2020, 02:55 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
This is simply the result of REAPER drawing each media item separately, rather than combining output for overlapping media. It's not a mathematically complex thing to change, but probably fairly painful programming wise. I'll take a look though.
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Schwa. The hero we need!
Thanks so much for taking a look. And regardless of what happens, comments like these are massively helpful to understand what is going on currently and very much appreciated.
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02-06-2020, 04:44 PM
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#15
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,746
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You see the same thing when faint peaks are displayed in envelope lanes, overlapping media is drawn one media item at a time rather than combined.
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02-06-2020, 04:54 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Can those be combined too, then?
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02-06-2020, 05:12 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 12,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Can those be combined too, then?
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Well, if scripts can do it....
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02-06-2020, 06:13 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish
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nofish... are you indirectly telling schwa there is no excuse?
__________________
Cheers... Andrew K
Reaper v6.80+dev0621 - June 21 2023 Catalina Mac Mini 2020 6 core i7 64GB RAM OS: Catalina 4K monitor RME RayDAT card with Sync Card and extended Light Pipe.
Last edited by Thonex; 02-06-2020 at 06:22 PM.
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02-07-2020, 08:15 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 12,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thonex
nofish... are you indirectly telling schwa there is no excuse?
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Uhm, it was kind of a cheeky comment, yeah, sorry.
Last edited by nofish; 02-07-2020 at 08:44 AM.
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02-07-2020, 11:52 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Cheeky but warranted
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02-07-2020, 11:59 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thonex
are you indirectly telling schwa there is no excuse?
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Staying clear of this one lol. Negative Ghost Rider the pattern is full...
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02-07-2020, 12:39 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish
Uhm, it was kind of a cheeky comment, yeah, sorry.
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It was a kind hearted cheeky comment... I'm sure no offense was taken.
I'm also sure schwa wants what's best and if it's not too much of a house of cards coding-wise... I bet he'll address it. (Hopefully )
__________________
Cheers... Andrew K
Reaper v6.80+dev0621 - June 21 2023 Catalina Mac Mini 2020 6 core i7 64GB RAM OS: Catalina 4K monitor RME RayDAT card with Sync Card and extended Light Pipe.
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04-05-2020, 02:00 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 794
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+1 for this sum coding to be done
rather than complex coding it might be a performance problem to always sum up waves when items overlapping (on envelope or folders faint waves, etc.)
g
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05-17-2020, 05:46 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianfini
+1 for this sum coding to be done
rather than complex coding it might be a performance problem to always sum up waves when items overlapping (on envelope or folders faint waves, etc.)
g
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It may be able to be done when you do the actual x-fade. So, quasi zero performance impact unless x-fading tons of edits at the same time. In that case though. I'd still prefer accurate graphics.
__________________
Cheers... Andrew K
Reaper v6.80+dev0621 - June 21 2023 Catalina Mac Mini 2020 6 core i7 64GB RAM OS: Catalina 4K monitor RME RayDAT card with Sync Card and extended Light Pipe.
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06-09-2020, 11:53 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,719
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Bumping this.
__________________
Cheers... Andrew K
Reaper v6.80+dev0621 - June 21 2023 Catalina Mac Mini 2020 6 core i7 64GB RAM OS: Catalina 4K monitor RME RayDAT card with Sync Card and extended Light Pipe.
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06-09-2020, 12:55 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,714
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I'm not sure that this FR can easily be implemented...
A cross-fade is simply two overlapping items. If the FR is somehow implemented for crossfades, what should happen with all other cases in which audio items are overlapped on the same track? And if Free Item Positioning is enabled, so that audio items overlap audibly but not visually?
However, it does make sense to me to combine the waveforms when drawing faint peaks in folder tracks.
Last edited by juliansader; 06-09-2020 at 01:01 PM.
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06-11-2020, 01:26 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader
I'm not sure that this FR can easily be implemented...
A cross-fade is simply two overlapping items. If the FR is somehow implemented for crossfades, what should happen with all other cases in which audio items are overlapped on the same track? And if Free Item Positioning is enabled, so that audio items overlap audibly but not visually?
However, it does make sense to me to combine the waveforms when drawing faint peaks in folder tracks.
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Hi Julian,
I don't think there is a problem. IF there is a cross-fade... calculate the combined levels. If not, leave the waveform alone. If they are superimposed without x-fades... simply have both unaltered superimposed waveforms visible. But when working on literally thousands of edits, it's tedious to feel the need to check a crossfade because it looks "off".
__________________
Cheers... Andrew K
Reaper v6.80+dev0621 - June 21 2023 Catalina Mac Mini 2020 6 core i7 64GB RAM OS: Catalina 4K monitor RME RayDAT card with Sync Card and extended Light Pipe.
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