[Blog, diary] Building a small studio

[G-Sun]

Merging my threads at John Sayers:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/vi...hp?f=4&t=17850

[Tod]

Originally Posted by G-Sun

Yes, my first plan was keeping the stringers. But getting them out of the way would solve a lot of problems. But then, are the new stringers good enough for the roof.. ?

Hi Geir, I see the existing stringers appear to be a little less than 7 feet. Is that your problem?

The more I think about the way your building is constructed I'm thinking that the existing rafters probably have heel cuts like in #2 in the picture below. Can you confirm that?



If that's the case you might be able to do a variation of #3 using 3/4" plywood on both sides of the rafter. However, I think you will have to have the stringers exposed at some height to keep the integrity of the roof in tact and still keep maximum space.

How high would you like the stringers to be?

[G-Sun]

Thanks Tod!
It's with heels, like #2, but with an 4x4" horizontal stud (doubleplate) as wall-top/connection-point.
So, new rafters will just go on top on the 4x4" horizontal stud I guess, with no end going out.
Maybe I need some metal-brackets for the fastening?

[FnA]

To "reinforce" what Tod has said, the "stringers" are what keeps the weight of the roof, snow, and wind from pushing outwards on the walls. Figured it wouldn't hurt to add that, even if you already realize it.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by FnA

To "reinforce" what Tod has said, the "stringers" are what keeps the weight of the roof, snow, and wind from pushing outwards on the walls. Figured it wouldn't hurt to add that, even if you already realize it.

Right, the the stringers should be placed somewhere above but near the upper plate.

Originally Posted by G-Sun

Thanks Tod!
It's with heels, like #2, but with an 4x4" horizontal stud (doubleplate) as wall-top/connection-point.

Humm, so you've got one 4x4 plate, that's a little odd but should be no problem as long as the corners are securely tied together.

So, new rafters will just go on top on the 4x4" horizontal stud I guess, with no end going out.

Yes and you probably won't need to extend them for the eve, the eve don't carry a lot of weight and should be fine the way it is.

Maybe I need some metal-brackets for the fastening?

Yes, a fairly heavy duty metal bracket that will bolt or screw to both the rafters and plate should work.

Also I'll ask again, how high do you want the stringers to be? You've got about 7 feet right now, would 8 feet be enough, or maybe 9 feet? I should mention that the stringers should be trussed somewhat too.

[FnA]

It could be made similar to a scissor truss if you trussed and gusseted the outer structure and inner ceiling, but then you might lose some acoustic insulation abilities. Might be good for thermal insulation and ventilation. Usually you want some air space between the insulation and roof. Even a couple inches, but if there's no ridge vent then I don't know if that really would help. Maybe if you put vents in the gable walls and keep the top of the triangle open somewhat? Here in the states there's styrofoam channels that are used to keep air circulation going, usually from vents in the eaves to a few feet past the wall just because the insulation is tighter there, but I've seen situations where they were used to go all the way up. But you might not have vents in the eaves either. I could see daylight through the wall in the picture. Not tryin to take over Tod, that's about all I got.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by FnA

Might be good for thermal insulation and ventilation. Usually you want some air space between the insulation and roof. Even a couple inches, but if there's no ridge vent then I don't know if that really would help. Maybe if you put vents in the gable walls and keep the top of the triangle open somewhat? Here in the states there's styrofoam channels that are used to keep air circulation going, usually from vents in the eaves to a few feet past the wall just because the insulation is tighter there, but I've seen situations where they were used to go all the way up. But you might not have vents in the eaves either. I could see daylight through the wall in the picture. Not tryin to take over Tod, that's about all I got.

Some good points FnA, I never gave ventilation a thought. However, if no vapor barriers (plastic) are used I think a vent in the gable ends will probably be enough.

It could be made similar to a scissor truss if you trussed and gusseted the outer structure and inner ceiling, but then you might lose some acoustic insulation abilities.

Any way you can put into a picture or drawing of what you have in mind here? I think there could be a practical side to this taking into account the outside noises and influences.

@Geir: I think you mentioned there was a highway some distance away. I also assume there is a road going close by in front. You may be able to get a little more practical about the outside influences and concentrate more on the recording acoustical side of things. Just a thought.

[FnA]

Well, I was looking at the second picture in post 33, and it reminded me of the trusses my buddy bought for his house about 6 years ago. He has a vaulted ceiling in his living room, and his house is about 24 feet wide. Of course these things were made in a factory with machine rated lumber, but G-Suns building is a little smaller. I live in a high snow area by the way, and also have built a house within the past 4 years. Heh heh...First snow last night in fact. I'll dig around for a picture of what I mean, since I don't have your Paint skills. I was just a little leery about those 4x4s. They're so far apart. And they might not all be in the best shape. I suppose the structure is the important thing, and then worry about making a false ceiling?

[FnA]

Here's the basic idea.

[FnA]

Iwas thinking something like that could be built along side the 4x4s and maybe reinforced with plywood, OSB or whatever they use over there. I don't know what kind of permit process G-Sun has to go through...

[G-Sun]

Thanks a lot for your inputs!


That's a very good idea
Similar to what xSpace's idea in this post


I don't know what's the strongest one, but the latter seems easier to make.

[FnA]

These things are designed by engineers, or perhaps by a computer program designed by engineers. Usually with trusses, some kind of additional lateral and diagonal bracing is called for. When I built my house I gave the wall plan to the building material supplier and they sent it to the truss manufacturer. Who then sent back a print out. Snow load plays a role in the calculations. Also in high wind areas certain framing conventions may apply. Trusses look quite flimsy some times but because of the way the web is laid out, after being properly braced, can be pretty strong. Like spokes in a bike wheel. Here's a link to a U.S. govt publication which shows some of the technicalities involved. I don't expect you to read it in detail, because I didn't either. You can google some stuff as well, as I'm sure you have. HUD is Housing and Urban Development.

http://www.huduser.org/Publications/...onnections.pdf

I did see a truss like the one you say would be easier to make in a quick search, but don't know what kind of load it's designed for. A lot of times boxing a truss like structure with plywood can make it function somewhat like a solid piece of wood. I think such a thing is more common in floor cantilevers and garage door headers and such. But I've seen a lot of trusses that just use plywood pieces to tie things together in a way similar to the pics Tod has made. It might be possible to cheat...Have some outfit give you a "bid" on trusses for the wall plan dimensions and roof/ceiling pitch that you want. They probably will just punch it in to a computer. Then you could see what design is called for.

If you could support the center in some way it would take some of the stress out of the equation. But might not be necessary if you get a good design going. Unfortunately I can't say 100% what the best thing to do is. I think you showed an interior wall somewhere on the first page. That could be positioned directly under one of these truss structures and also could be used to help stiffen the outer wall structure at least to a degree. Maybe I'm turning a molehill into a mountain. But you may as well make it as tough as possible.

EDIT- Diagonal bracing is required in wall structures as well. Usually a piece of plywood is required at least in the corners. In some cases a board was inlaid at an angle from ceiling to floor. That is, notches were cut into the studs, metal T strips were used as well. You have doors in the corners, so would have to put these diagonals or plywood somewhere else on those walls. One side of the wall is fine. Maybe it already has such bracing.

[G-Sun]

Thanks FnA!

I'll have to build my trusses myself I think, so easier is better.

http://www.huduser.org/Publications/...onnections.pdf

That's a nice link. Don't know how deep I'm gonna dive in, Just need to grasp the conlusions I guess.
Thought of using some sort of metal brackets for fastening the rafters to the doubleplate.

Something like this maybe:

But it'll be a little difficult.

Maybe something like this is better:

(Note: GAFFELANKER (no) )

With this:

in reserve.

And then maybe plywood.

[G-Sun]

EDIT- Diagonal bracing is required in wall structures as well. Usually a piece of plywood is required at least in the corners. In some cases a board was inlaid at an angle from ceiling to floor. That is, notches were cut into the studs, metal T strips were used as well. You have doors in the corners, so would have to put these diagonals or plywood somewhere else on those walls. One side of the wall is fine. Maybe it already has such bracing.

I have some already:

But indeed, some more diagonal bracing could help the structure.

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by Tod

Hi Geir,

I've been looking this over and it appears your material has much different dimensions than we have here in the states. For example, sheetrock, plywood, and sheeting in general come in 4x8 foot sheets. What are the demensions that you get your material?

Yes, in Norway everything is by 60cm (23.6inch). So I'll save myself a lot of trouble by adapting to this width on everything.

So, I think that means adding new studs/rafters at c/c 60 all the way.

[FnA]

Hi G-Sun. Yeah you probably don't need to read all that. I don't think all that X+Y/sine(Q) etc is necessary. Just figured you could look at the pics. Have to run right now. The brackets you show in the bigger picture are designed for uplift (wind) more that anything. I know what you are getting at when you say the right angle brackets would be difficult. You might be able to rent a compact power/pneumatic tool to drive the nails in, just a thought. Holy...Not much for studs there...

Here's another link that shows some common bracing schemes-
http://www.trussec.com/handling.html

EDIT- It's probably OK to build it like you show in #53. The important thing is to make the truss a strong unit that holds itself together. Then it will just push straight down on the wall. But a bracket here and there wouldn't hurt. I used something a little different on my shack. A diamond shaped plate with straps that go up on each side of the truss. Like I said, those are mainly for keeping the house from flying apart in a hurricane or tornado. I've seen alot of things like you show in #53 being used around here.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by G-Sun

Thanks FnA!

I'll have to build my trusses myself I think, so easier is better.


That's a nice link. Don't know how deep I'm gonna dive in, Just need to grasp the conlusions I guess.
Thought of using some sort of metal brackets for fastening the rafters to the doubleplate.

Something like this maybe:

But it'll be a little difficult.

That would be okay but will be very difficult to fasten to the plate with the roof on. It might be easier to toe-nail it to the plate.

Maybe something like this is better:

(Note: GAFFELANKER (no) )

Actually if you do it yourself I think you'll want to use plywood, those metal gussets are only really practical for factory construction.

In a truss factory all the parts (Rafter, joist, chords) are pre-cut and then laid in a hydraulic jig that clamps all the parts together, perfectly and tightly. Next the metal gussets are placed in the proper places and hammered down just enough to hold and keep them in place. Then the whole thing goes through a powerful press that secures the gussets so they are very tight and flat.

That was in a truss factory I worked in for a short time several years ago, they probably have even better ways of doing it now.

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by Tod

That would be okay but will be very difficult to fasten to the plate with the roof on. It might be easier to toe-nail it to the plate.

Yes

Actually if you do it yourself I think you'll want to use plywood, those metal gussets are only really practical for factory construction.

Actually I was more thinking of the Y-bracket for fastening the rafters to the plate

[Tod]

Hi Geir and FnA,

Based on your dimensions I put a couple of drawings together that are more to scale and offer a couple of possibilities.

This one shows the roof with about 10 1/2 ft from upper ceiling joist to floor.


This one shows the full view of roof and walls with about 11 ft from upper ceiling joist to floor.

[FnA]

Looks good Tod. I don't really know much about the finer points of designing something like that. I can only guess. I like the way the additional pieces sit on the top plate in the bottom drawing.

[G-Sun]

Thanks a lot Tod!
Remember, I will have to build these things myself inside the existing roof. So, simple is better.

That's why I hope this design will work out:


Also, remember that I'll add studs and rafters 2x4" by c/c 60cm, so that'll give some additional strength.
Hopefully that'll allow an easier design.

Regarding snow: Yes, I'll have to deal with up to 1,5m of snow. But my roof is good in that way. The snow will just fall of.
Wind: A lot of forest around here.

[Wolffman]

Hi fellas
I've been following this thread lately with interest to see how things would shape up.
As it happens designing roof trusses, wall frames and structual beams etc is my day job so i might be able to help out with some ideas.
I'm in Australia and from looking at your pics our building practices are very different but that shouldn't matter with what you want to do as long as it complies with your local building codes etc.
In fact it may not matter at all as you should be able to do this job without affecting the structual integrity of your existing building at all.

From what i've read in this thread and on your blog site you plan to build a new set of wallframes inside the existing ones, and a new pitched ceiling under the existing ceiling, in one end of your shed, measuring aprox 4420mm x 3390mm, is that right ?

I see your going to move and or replace an internal wall to create the new space, also i'm not sure from looking at the pictures but do you also have to remove the ceiling in this area as well ?
If so you could use this new wall to tie your external walls together, there fore retaining the structual integrity of the building.

My idea would be to build the new side walls inside the existing ones as shown in some of the drawings in this thread, with new Gable-end walls also, these would rake up at the same pitch as the under side of existing roof structure and a ridge beam.board would be housed at the apex of these new inside gable walls.
Then you could pitch some rafters from the new inside / side walls up the the ridge beam fixed at each end with a metal fastener ( like a Trip-L-Grip or similar ), then fix some ceiling batterns to the new rafters to take the ceiling material.
Thats pretty much all you would need i think.

This new structure would be completely independent of the existing building and also completly non structual so minimum timber sizes could be used which would help to keep the cost to a minimum.

I hope this is making some sense, the terminoligy might be a little different than what your used to which might confuse things.

Let me know if any of this needs further explanation.


Cheers.

[Tod]

Hi guys,

Originally Posted by G-Sun

Thanks a lot Tod!
Remember, I will have to build these things myself inside the existing roof. So, simple is better.

Yah, doing something like this with an existing building is not easy especially with little experience in construction, my hats off to you for having the gumption.

I'm not sure what to call this so we'll just call it a scissor rafter. It's probably the simplest way to do this and I think will be strong enough considering the small size of the roof. The top rafter is a little less than 10 feet long from wall to crown. Based on your listed measurements it's little less than 9ft/5in (2.9m). You may or may not need the extra bracing in the middle.



Again based on your measurements this is a top view of the rafters. Of course I don't have a clue where the current 4x4s start so take that into account. If you could give us an idea how the 4x4s lay and how the gable end is constructed it would help.



@Wolffman: I think I understand what you have in mind but not sure. Any chance of a of a sketch.

[FnA]

If you've never used circular saws before, use great care. They cut human beings even easier than wood. That's the obvious part. There's other quirks as well. The motors are relatively powerful and the blade can develop a lot of torque. Hold on like you mean it and keep your balance at all times. Be prepared for a kickback at any unexpected time. Especially when the wood bends or pinches the blade. Wear safety glasses. If you use a table saw watch your fingers obviously but also be aware of the possibility of the wood being pushed forcibly towards you. Maybe check out some safety instructions somewhere. Don't know what your experience level is.

Another little tip. I've seen guys mangle trusses when toenailing. One little trick to reduce splintering is to dull the nail point a little. I usually find a nail that's been pounded in already and use that as an anvil of sorts. Don't hit it so hard you bend it obviously. Wood screws can be bought that have a scoop cut out of the point that helps as well. Old, dry lumber is especially prone to splitting. The end of the board is a weak spot as well.

[Wolffman]

Originally Posted by Tod

@Wolffman: I think I understand what you have in mind but not sure. Any chance of a of a sketch.

I'll see what i can do today and post something up tonight.

Cheers

[Wolffman]

Hi fellas,

I've done a drawing of the method i described in my previous post,
the blue represents the existing building.

I hope this drawing makes things a little clearer.

The Ridge beam doubles as a new support to hold up the existing rafters and to take the lateral load off the external loadbearing walls after the removal of the ceiling joists, as well as giving a place to connect the new internal rafters ( which are only carring ceiling load and are essentially non structual ) which will form the new studio ceiling.

Please note that i've drawn this using commom size material used here in Australia which may be very different from what is available to you, so these drawings are to be taken as a concept only

I've attached a pdf so you can zoom in for more detail etc.




Cheers

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Wolffman

The Ridge beam doubles as a new support to hold up the existing rafters and to take the lateral load off the external loadbearing walls after the removal of the ceiling joists, as well as giving a place to connect the new internal rafters ( which are only carring ceiling load and are essentially non structual ) which will form the new studio ceiling.

Hi Wolffman, I think that could be a very practical solution for Geir. It would simplify things a great deal and be easier to build. It would also offer the most space.

The only potential problem could be the top plate of the outside walls. Geir mentioned that it is just one 4x4, however, if the top plate has continuity for the whole width of the room then it's not a problem.

One thing I might add is that it might be best to tie the existing and new rafters together at the peak just below the existing ridge-board (I'm assuming it has a ridge-board). This could be done with 2x4s but there may be a way to do it with metal straps. That would also take care of any potential problems with the outside upper plates.

[G-Sun]

Thanks a lot folks!
I'm sick today. Hopefully I can respond better tomorrow

[FnA]

I've seen a few larger structures built that way here in the upper midwest USA. They all had heavy laminated beams and special hangers, but the building in question is much smaller. I guess Wolffman knows a lot more than me about the details here. I don't know about the walls either. Looks questionable from the pics I've seen so far. I'm sure something is possible to deal with any weaknesses.

[Tod]

I've been thinking about this some and something that came to mind for a metal strap is a joist hanger. They could be bent to tie the rafters together between the ridge-board.



One potential problem with the joist hanger is the bottom flange will probably stick down some. This could be accommodated by making the beam out of three 2x8s or 2x10s and staggering the outside ones as shown below. However I think I like the idea of using a 2x4 to tie the rafters better. I'm just assuming the ridge-board is a 2x6.



The beam in the picture is basically a 6x8 according to US standards. A solid 4x8 or 4x10 might be enough, not sure.

[G-Sun]

You're just fantastic!

Wolffman:

Originally Posted by Wolffman

As it happens designing roof trusses, wall frames and structual beams etc is my day job so i might be able to help out with some ideas.

Welcome aboard! Some professional advise is most certainly welcome.

From what i've read in this thread and on your blog site you plan to build a new set of wallframes inside the existing ones, and a new pitched ceiling under the existing ceiling, in one end of your shed, measuring aprox 4420mm x 3390mm, is that right ?

Yes, that's right. Although I think it's going to be something like 4420mm x 3900mm.

I see your going to move and or replace an internal wall to create the new space, also i'm not sure from looking at the pictures but do you also have to remove the ceiling in this area as well ?

Yes.

If so you could use this new wall to tie your external walls together, there fore retaining the structual integrity of the building.

Absolutely

Originally Posted by Wolffman

Hi fellas,

I've done a drawing of the method i described in my previous post,
the blue represents the existing building.

I hope this drawing makes things a little clearer.

Very helpful indeed! Especially for me who has a poor understanding of English building-terms

The Ridge beam doubles as a new support to hold up the existing rafters and to take the lateral load off the external loadbearing walls after the removal of the ceiling joists, as well as giving a place to connect the new internal rafters ( which are only carring ceiling load and are essentially non structual ) which will form the new studio ceiling.

Please note that i've drawn this using commom size material used here in Australia which may be very different from what is available to you, so these drawings are to be taken as a concept only

I've attached a pdf so you can zoom in for more detail etc.

Very good drawings

Connect existing rafters to new ridge beam
with metal fasteners of some kind
your local hardware should be able to advise
the correct one for the job

First image: The connection of the inner ridge to the outer ridge ruins the decoupling of inner/outer structure, but it's maybe necessary?
I also see you recommend fasten inner/outer in the corners, right?

Second image: Brilliant idea. I'll just need to calculate (or get someone to help me) the strength of the ridge beam with supporting studs.
(Is it a deal-breaker not fastening it upwards?)

Note: The inner structure will need to support 1-2 layers of 15mm fire-rated gypsum-boards (heavy), some insulation, together with sound-absorbing-ceiling-cloud and lights.

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by Tod

Yah, doing something like this with an existing building is not easy especially with little experience in construction, my hats off to you for having the gumption.

Thanks But without you and others helping me it would just have been a fools work..

I'm not sure what to call this so we'll just call it a scissor rafter. It's probably the simplest way to do this and I think will be strong enough considering the small size of the roof. The top rafter is a little less than 10 feet long from wall to crown. Based on your listed measurements it's little less than 9ft/5in (2.9m). You may or may not need the extra bracing in the middle.

Thanks! I've made a new drawing, Just a minute..

Again based on your measurements this is a top view of the rafters. Of course I don't have a clue where the current 4x4s start so take that into account. If you could give us an idea how the 4x4s lay and how the gable end is constructed it would help.

You're drawing is very helpful. Thanks! I'll make one with updated details and measurements.

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by FnA

If you've never used circular saws before, use great care. They cut human beings even easier than wood. That's the obvious part. There's other quirks as well. The motors are relatively powerful and the blade can develop a lot of torque. Hold on like you mean it and keep your balance at all times. Be prepared for a kickback at any unexpected time. Especially when the wood bends or pinches the blade. Wear safety glasses. If you use a table saw watch your fingers obviously but also be aware of the possibility of the wood being pushed forcibly towards you. Maybe check out some safety instructions somewhere. Don't know what your experience level is.

Another little tip. I've seen guys mangle trusses when toenailing. One little trick to reduce splintering is to dull the nail point a little. I usually find a nail that's been pounded in already and use that as an anvil of sorts. Don't hit it so hard you bend it obviously. Wood screws can be bought that have a scoop cut out of the point that helps as well. Old, dry lumber is especially prone to splitting. The end of the board is a weak spot as well.

Thanks FnA for your tips! Yes, those board saws are quirky.
I need my fingers for guitar-playing, so no finger-cutting wanted

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by Tod

The only potential problem could be the top plate of the outside walls. Geir mentioned that it is just one 4x4, however, if the top plate has continuity for the whole width of the room then it's not a problem.

One thing I might add is that it might be best to tie the existing and new rafters together at the peak just below the existing ridge-board (I'm assuming it has a ridge-board). This could be done with 2x4s but there may be a way to do it with metal straps. That would also take care of any potential problems with the outside upper plates.

There is really no top-plate. Just a 1x4" under the rafters.

[G-Sun]

Here's my new drawing for the new rafters in the outer structure.



It's seems relatively easy to do, and incorporates many of the ideas discussed above. I could do some tweaking of the angles, inner height, and adjust strength with plywood some places, but I believe this is good. What do you think?

Details

[Tod]

Originally Posted by G-Sun

It's seems relatively easy to do, and incorporates many of the ideas discussed above. I could do some tweaking of the angles, inner height, and adjust strength with plywood some places, but I believe this is good. What do you think?

Looks good to me Geir, it's probably the easiest and takes the least material.

[G-Sun]

Here's a view of the joists and measurements for with and length of outer wall inner measures, as it is currently.



Rafters goes in between the double joists ones 4x4".

A note about the ridge:
It has 3 2x4", all on top of the rafters, two for side-tops (roof-angle) and one horizontal for the ridge itself.

For question about the width, please see:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/vi...125029#p125029

[Tod]

Originally Posted by G-Sun

Here's a view of the joists and measurements for with and length of outer wall inner measures.



The rest of the joists follow the same pattern.
Rafters goes in between the double ones 4x4".

Good morning Geir,

What exactly is this? Is it the existing ceiling/floor joists?

A note about the ride:
It has 3 2x4", all on top of the rafters, two for side-tops (roof-angle) and one horizontal for the ridge itself.

Can you explain this, I haven't a clue what the ride is or what you're referring to here.

How close are you to getting started? One thing I've been meaning to mention is that you don't want to take out any of the ceiling/floor joist or remove the floor boards in the attic until you first get your new scissor rafters in (if that's what your going to do). This is important.. It's the existing joists and the floor boards that are keeping the sides from collapsing or sagging right now.

At some point you'll have to get a local contractor or builder involved at least for advice.

[G-Sun]

Sorry if it was unclear. It's the excising joists,
with two alternatives for where to put up the inner wall.

ride: Sorry, "Ridge" it is.

Time: I'll not start before I have my plans ready and get them approved by professionals.

BTW Tod: I'm not sure if it was your idea to remove the existing joists or not. Anyway it's my responsibility to do things in a safe way

[Tod]

Hi Geir,

I noticed on an Ethan Winer site the other day he had these room dimension ratios posted. How good they are I'm not sure.

I think the only given at this point is the length, 4.66 meters. Based on that I've made these calculations which may or may not be correct. My maths not the greatest.

Hieght       Width        Length
  1           1.14         1.39 
  1           1.28         1.54
  1           1.6          2.33


Hieght       Width        Length
  1           1.14         1.39 
3.353         3.822        4.66
 
  1           1.28         1.54
3.026         3.873        4.66

  1           1.6          2.33
3.35          3.2          4.66

Of course because of the roof it's difficult to calculate the height so I'm not sure how one would go about that.