Anyone else using this as a live mixer?

[Lastrite]

Doesn't the docker switch automatically when you press the hotkey for Mixer or Matrix window Jonny?

[serr]

Originally Posted by JonnyGinese

I don't remember who asked about using Sends for Monitors but here it is.

It seems like the fastest way to do monitor changes with sends in this view is to use the routing matrix.. and right clicking on the send... once you right click you get a little window right at your cursor with a fader for volume and Pan.

I think I'm missing something here. How does the screen arrangement affect how you control the faders? Are you using some bank switching feature on a controller that is cued by this? Or are you selecting a channel with the mouse and using a Faderport or something? Just curious.

[JonnyGinese]

If you look at the screen shots it should make sense.

In the first Screen shot you can only see the mixer in 2 rows with only FX visible. If you had a big enough resolution on our screen i guess you might be able to get all sends visible.

So
Screen 1 is FOH Mixer.

Screen 2 is for Monitors.

did you DL it and try it out?

And i guess in this View i could just press CTRL+M to take away the mixer leaving the routing matrix... and then again to bring it back.

[Lastrite]

Your using the Matrix to create monitormixes?

Why not just click the io button on the Aux out track and mix with the faders under 'receives'? Somehow that seems much easier to me... I'm pretty sure that would be how I would do it if my laptop couldn't handle multiple projects...

Of course, whatever works for you is fine

EDIT: And about the shortcuts... I was thinking more along the line of assigning the mixer to F1 and the Matrix to F2 or something... Quick and easy...

Just throwing ideas out there though

[serr]

Originally Posted by JonnyGinese

If you look at the screen shots it should make sense.

In the first Screen shot you can only see the mixer in 2 rows with only FX visible. If you had a big enough resolution on our screen i guess you might be able to get all sends visible.

So
Screen 1 is FOH Mixer.

Screen 2 is for Monitors.

did you DL it and try it out?

And i guess in this View i could just press CTRL+M to take away the mixer leaving the routing matrix... and then again to bring it back.

What I'm asking is what midi controller device do you use to move the faders and how does changing the cosmetic layout on the screen affect said device? Or are you just trying to move faders with a mouse?

I didn't DL - wouldn't apply to my setup. Just curious what you're using.

[serr]

I wish the Faderport had a scribble strip. Anyone seen a small usb scribble strip type product?

[JonnyGinese]

I don't have a Control surface.. I'm using all on screen controls.

If i had a control surface I would figure out how to just cycle through the AUX sends on a rotary knob.

And i guess you could do it by clicking the IO button... But not all of the AUXs fix in the window.. i can't re-size mine for some reason.

[serr]

Originally Posted by JonnyGinese

I don't have a Control surface.. I'm using all on screen controls.

If i had a control surface I would figure out how to just cycle through the AUX sends on a rotary knob.

Oh, OK. I was assuming things again...
I'd highly recommend a small midi controller. That was the difference between success and absolute failure for this project for me. At least check out the Faderport.

I still use analog graphic eq's too. I am NOT ringing out monitors with a mouse!

[JonnyGinese]

Its nice that you can make a 31 band EQ out of the ReaEQ.

If I do this I will probably have outboard EQs for monitors and FOH.. probably Dual 15 band 1U racks...

[Lastrite]

Originally Posted by serr

I still use analog graphic eq's too. I am NOT ringing out monitors with a mouse!

And here I was thinking DDMF EQ's new built in analyzer would make it the perfect tool for on a monitor track

EDIT: Or a nice graphic EQ vst like KarmaFX EQ for that matter... Too much outboard kinda defeats the purpose for me personally...

[serr]

It would be cool to be able to save eq presets but it's only a 6 space rack full of eq's (31 band - 15 band eq's don't cut it... pun intended). I need real faders under my fingers. Slipping with the mouse on an eq fader at the wrong time could cost someone their hearing and take out speakers!

One of those drive-rack systems with the single selectable eq controller could be cool though.

I just eliminated FOH and the snake entirely. The eq rack really doesn't bother me.

[Lastrite]

Mmm... I think I missed how you ditched the snake... Your MacBook, Interface and preamps are on stage and you're controlling everything wireless with an iPad and midicontrollers?

[serr]

Originally Posted by Lastrite

Mmm... I think I missed how you ditched the snake... Your MacBook, Interface and preamps are on stage and you're controlling everything wireless with an iPad and midicontrollers?

Correct. 95% midi 5% iPad

[Unclejambo]

Well, I liked the idea but it didn't last too long.

Did monitors for "I am arrows" last night and there were 2 separate instances of digital stuff going wrong. Neither were in a critical gig situation but they could just as easily have been.

Their front of house guy had an allen and heath ilive which crashed. Thankfully when it rebooted it had his last settings stored. It did take 10 minutes to do so though I'm told.

Mid soundcheck the monitor amp rack tripped, not a problem with the electrics I think it was just something stupid like a cable tugging on the main power plug. In any case at this venue there's a driverack with the fader control surface for wedge graphics and once I'd powered it all back up I was presented with a flat eq. Luckily enough I knew roughly what to hack out for those wedges with those mics but it could've been nightmarish in a gig.

....plus my presonus doesn't seem to want to go below 3ms. If I get this sorted I'll still give it a whirl at a low profile show on the support.

[Lastrite]

3ms total roundtrip? That's quite good actually if you are talking about a firewire device... Anyone who tells you he's hearing a 3ms delay is lying...

Too bad it didn't work out, although it seems REAPER wasn't an issue in any case

[serr]

Don't give up man. Reaper is rock solid for me. 2 things...
Consider using a zero latency audio interface mixer for monitors.
Double your buffer size to 128 samples. 6ms round trip is fine - it's only a distance of 6'. Sometimes the mains are 6' in front of the band so... perfect! Rule of thumb is anything under 11ms is imperceptible.

This hasn't happened but if Reaper were to go down it launches in about 3 seconds running on a SSD.

[serr]

12 shows with Reaper and all's well.
I'm never going to run an analog mixer at a show ever again!

Further, I predict that all the clunky digital boards will disappear in the next few years as people discover this option.

I was at the point of quitting running live sound because of all the bullshit in so many venues. I feel like I just got my career back. Thanks Reaper!

[serr]

21 months and hundreds of shows and not one glitch out of Reaper! This is how you mix live sound now.

OK, there is one issue I didn't expect...
This really only happened at 4 or 5 venues. A few house engineers out there got very butt-hurt (technical term) over this. They took it as an invasion of their gig and were none too pleased at the number of patrons telling them "I've never heard it sound this good in here before!" Sorry if that sounds egotistical. The bottom line is that touring around with a regional (not national) band puts you in clubs like this at times. Then there's 'Drunk Boys Festival Sound Co' gigs... "How'd ja like me to pour this beer all over yer mixer?" Careful out there!

Most reactions have been positive to the extreme. Gone are the nights that were a struggle (or failure) to even get to a basic comfort zone due to inadequate or damaged systems. As long as the club's mains are functional everything is golden.

[jonwormwood]

Originally Posted by serr

21 months and hundreds of shows and not one glitch out of Reaper! This is how you mix live sound now.

OK, there is one issue I didn't expect...
This really only happened at 4 or 5 venues. A few house engineers out there got very butt-hurt (technical term) over this. They took it as an invasion of their gig and were none too pleased at the number of patrons telling them "I've never heard it sound this good in here before!" Sorry if that sounds egotistical. The bottom line is that touring around with a regional (not national) band puts you in clubs like this at times. Then there's 'Drunk Boys Festival Sound Co' gigs... "How'd ja like me to pour this beer all over yer mixer?" Careful out there!

Most reactions have been positive to the extreme. Gone are the nights that were a struggle (or failure) to even get to a basic comfort zone due to inadequate or damaged systems. As long as the club's mains are functional everything is golden.

Could you explain how you set up and use the MIDI? Can set the gain for each channel via midi then volume?

What about other EQ'ing?

[Andy Hamm]

Yes I've been using reaper for my mix rack for about a year or so maybe more. There is a thread here someplace with my gear in it. Had a few minor growing pains, but overall its been great.

I wouldn't say it's all that cost effective though, as I definitely could have purchased a presonus for what I have into my rig now, so if I didn't already own the gear I would have gone that route.

[serr]

Originally Posted by jonwormwood

Could you explain how you set up and use the MIDI? Can set the gain for each channel via midi then volume?

What about other EQ'ing?

I use the uc-33 for certain volume faders, sends, certain fx controls and a wildcard fader with channel/send selects on the keypad. The Faderport is another wildcard fader. Really unimpressed with the faderport. In fact I'd really love to replace it with that Faderfox LV3 I just saw. I've been wanting to do some surround with this rig and that thing has 2 joysticks on it. I've been doing eqing (and everything else) via the ipad.

Originally Posted by Andy Hamm

I wouldn't say it's all that cost effective though, as I definitely could have purchased a presonus for what I have into my rig now, so if I didn't already own the gear I would have gone that route.

Strongly disagree with that. This setup is completely modular. I get to choose my preamps and converters. It would feel restrictive to not be able to just swap around hardware. Aren't you restricted as to what plugins you can use on the Presonus? Can you even load your own plugins? To be fair I'm impressed with what I see from them. I wish they made an interface with a cue mix (not a whole mixer) that used that ipad app. I'd use that for monitors. Not gonna pay for and lug around one of those boards though.

[Andy Hamm]

Originally Posted by serr

Strongly disagree with that. This setup is completely modular. I get to choose my preamps and converters. It would feel restrictive to not be able to just swap around hardware. Aren't you restricted as to what plugins you can use on the Presonus? Can you even load your own plugins? To be fair I'm impressed with what I see from them. I wish they made an interface with a cue mix (not a whole mixer) that used that ipad app. I'd use that for monitors. Not gonna pay for and lug around one of those boards though.

I don't have a Presonus console, I was just stating that if I was starting from scratch, I could have simply bought the Presonus for less than what my current rig cost me. My mix rack is more powerful, but the Presonus can be thrown in front of anyone, which should be a major issue to anyone supplying production. I am the only one that uses my mix rack, so I don't have that issue.

[quartermoonpro]

If you have a signal coming in too hot, and you've got your preamp turned all the way down, what are you using (if anything) to buffer the input? SAC has a control that allows you to either turn up or down the signal depending on the situation.

[serr]

Originally Posted by quartermoonpro

If you have a signal coming in too hot, and you've got your preamp turned all the way down, what are you using (if anything) to buffer the input? SAC has a control that allows you to either turn up or down the signal depending on the situation.

Either a pad or if it's a full +4 line level signal (as your comment suggests) I just use a line input. (Nothing's changed there in other words.) If it's a festival/free-for-all situation and there's truly a surprise level to turn down I'm not shy about running to the stage to take care of something.

[quartermoonpro]

So you're using a physical pad to buffer the input, then. I wasn't sure if there was a JS plugin that could be used for this or not?

[BeatPsychic]

Originally Posted by serr

21 months and hundreds of shows and not one glitch out of Reaper! This is how you mix live sound now.

OK, there is one issue I didn't expect...
This really only happened at 4 or 5 venues. A few house engineers out there got very butt-hurt (technical term) over this. They took it as an invasion of their gig and were none too pleased at the number of patrons telling them "I've never heard it sound this good in here before!" Sorry if that sounds egotistical. The bottom line is that touring around with a regional (not national) band puts you in clubs like this at times. Then there's 'Drunk Boys Festival Sound Co' gigs... "How'd ja like me to pour this beer all over yer mixer?" Careful out there!

Most reactions have been positive to the extreme. Gone are the nights that were a struggle (or failure) to even get to a basic comfort zone due to inadequate or damaged systems. As long as the club's mains are functional everything is golden.

Very glad to see this feedback! I've have been contemplating going this route for a few months now, but have been hesitant for fear of roundtrip overall latency. I only run sound for a small local band currently, but I can picture the lead vocalist tripping out over the slightest delay between singing their vocal part and when it hits the mains/monitors. I know if this was the case, you wouldn't be doing it this way for 21 months now, so I think I will give it a shot! Thanks again!

(You might consider talking with Nicholas about adding a small section in the user guide showing how you approach this Live Sound Method. Just a thought...)

[Tod]

Originally Posted by quartermoonpro

So you're using a physical pad to buffer the input, then. I wasn't sure if there was a JS plugin that could be used for this or not?

I think a simple way would be to just add ReaEQ to the Input FX and use the Gain. You can delete all but one of the EQ bands.

[Andy Hamm]

I adjust input gain on the hardware. You can makeup gain as suggested with any of the standard plugs that you will have on your channels anyway. No need for anything fancy there.

[quartermoonpro]

I appreciate the help guys.
One more question, where do you like to keep your input levels on individual channels at? Does -16db seem about right?

[serr]

Originally Posted by quartermoonpro

So you're using a physical pad to buffer the input, then. I wasn't sure if there was a JS plugin that could be used for this or not?

If I need to. Pretty rare. It goes without saying that your levels need to be set in the analog world. You would not be able to adjust this digitally after the fact.
Again, nothing special here. Mic preamps for mic inputs. Line level inputs for line level.

Originally Posted by Tod

I think a simple way would be to just add ReaEQ to the Input FX and use the Gain. You can delete all but one of the EQ bands.

No sir! See above.

Originally Posted by quartermoonpro

I appreciate the help guys.
One more question, where do you like to keep your input levels on individual channels at? Does -16db seem about right?

No. Adjust the input for the signal you are getting from the microphone. It varies depending on what kind of microphone and what's in front of it. Check out some of the threads here on live sound basics.

Originally Posted by BeatPsychic

Very glad to see this feedback! I've have been contemplating going this route for a few months now, but have been hesitant for fear of roundtrip overall latency. I only run sound for a small local band currently, but I can picture the lead vocalist tripping out over the slightest delay between singing their vocal part and when it hits the mains/monitors. I know if this was the case, you wouldn't be doing it this way for 21 months now, so I think I will give it a shot! Thanks again!

(You might consider talking with Nicholas about adding a small section in the user guide showing how you approach this Live Sound Method. Just a thought...)

No issues at all. And yes, ANY amount of perceivable delay in the monitors or mains would be game over instantly!

Again, the worst issue was losing a return gig because the promoter heard "the band was hard to work with". Yep... getting 5 inputs (main L,R and monitor sends 1,2,3) and a soundcheck that took 10 minutes must have been pretty offensive! This is the butthurt thing I was talking about. You will run into this.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by quartermoonpro

If you have a signal coming in too hot, and you've got your preamp turned all the way down, what are you using (if anything) to buffer the input?

Originally Posted by serr

No sir! See above.

Sorry about that, I thought he had the preamps all the way down with nowhere else to go.

[quartermoonpro]

I understand about getting the levels, but I'm coming from the analog world, where the level you try to acheive at the preamp input stage is obviously different from the digital. I know you don't go over 0 in digital, so I'm just wondering what you've found as the optimum level for the inputs.

[serr]

Originally Posted by quartermoonpro

I understand about getting the levels, but I'm coming from the analog world, where the level you try to acheive at the preamp input stage is obviously different from the digital.

Nope. There's absolutely no difference. Set the input level for maximum signal with no overs as always.

[quartermoonpro]

Excellent, good to know.
thanks

[JazzCamel]

It is highly unlikely I would ever dream of using reaper live, unless it was a sample or loop DI to a real mixer. (meaning using it as an electronic instrument not a mixer, which I have done w my laptop)

The reason why is latency and summing. I have an Allen and Heath live board and it is worth running my Reaper mixes to it to sum and spread the mix into a 3rd dimention. In no way have I thought reaper could enhance the sound of a live performance without plugins. Some plugins could make it sound awesome no doubt. But you run the risk of latency which performers would HATE to hear.

So you guys that do this, more power to ya, and your backs thank you. Just not for me.

[serr]

Originally Posted by JazzCamel

It is highly unlikely I would ever dream of using reaper live, unless it was a sample or loop DI to a real mixer. (meaning using it as an electronic instrument not a mixer, which I have done w my laptop)

The reason why is latency and summing. I have an Allen and Heath live board and it is worth running my Reaper mixes to it to sum and spread the mix into a 3rd dimention. In no way have I thought reaper could enhance the sound of a live performance without plugins. Some plugins could make it sound awesome no doubt. But you run the risk of latency which performers would HATE to hear.

So you guys that do this, more power to ya, and your backs thank you. Just not for me.

You will not hear 11ms.
Reaper sounds better than any small or medium format mixer I've used. That goes for A&H and even Midas. Reaper sounds vastly better. You'd need a real SSL or Neve to outdo it. Now obviously you need nice mic preamps and digital converters for your inputs.
This was actually the most striking feature of this rig and one that I hadn't anticipated. I would have been happy staying even with A&H quality for example but Reaper far exceeds that with the 64 bit mix engine. Just miles of headroom.

[JazzCamel]

Originally Posted by serr

You will not hear 11ms.
Reaper sounds better than any small or medium format mixer I've used. That goes for A&H and even Midas. Reaper sounds vastly better. You'd need a real SSL or Neve to outdo it. Now obviously you need nice mic preamps and digital converters for your inputs.
This was actually the most striking feature of this rig and one that I hadn't anticipated. I would have been happy staying even with A&H quality for example but Reaper far exceeds that with the 64 bit mix engine. Just miles of headroom.

It is certainly a pioneering thing to do. It will be people like you that will get Cockos to make it even better for live mixing. To the point one day when the choice is so easy to make for people.

Ever experienced crashes while using Reaper for this application?

[serr]

Originally Posted by JazzCamel

Ever experienced crashes while using Reaper for this application?

Not even once. Props to Apple as well.

[FKAB]

So I wasn't crazy after all! It is possible to use Reaper as a mixer!

Yes please, add a section to the Documentation! Step by step for us mere mortals with modest incomes too, and nice thread guys, keep it coming!

[quartermoonpro]

I wanted to report in. Did a show this weekend for 6 hours, no problems with reaper and this inluded using a VSTi for DJ purposes between sets. I'll also mention that venue's a/c was on the fritz, so it was hot conditions to say the least. For my rig I have:

Quad Core QX6850 (3.0Ghz)
4GB Ram
XP Pro 32bit
16 inputs, 4 outs (Stereo FOH and 2 monitor sends)
Maudio Profire Lightbridge
ASIO Buffer - 64 samples
Mackie Control Universal

Latency was a non factor (imperceptible to the human ear). I had eq,gate, compression on 8 channels, eq, compression on the other 8 channels. I had 3 different reverbs and 2 different delays set up on the aux for choices and 3 main vocal channels with different effects processing just to test the box.

Monitors had eq on every channel, plus an overall 32 band eq on the monitor masters.

Total CPU usage ranged between 30-40%

I can see why others might get "butt hurt" about the sound. We were previously using an A&H GL2400. The sound difference was dramatic. This is going to be our live rig from now on and I'll just keep the GL2400 and the FOH rack in the truck just in case.

Thanks to everyone that has been in this forum and for all their help with my questions.