Old 12-18-2019, 09:36 AM   #1
Edgemeal
Human being with feelings
 
Edgemeal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: ASU`ogacihC
Posts: 1,639
Default v6.02+dev1218 - December 18 2019

v6.02+dev1218 - December 18 2019
+ Automation items: when copy/pasting media items, also copy/paste all selected automation items [t=227409]
+ FX browser: improve mixed-state handling of plug-in options in context menus
+ FX chain: improve behavior with multimonitors at different DPIs
+ Media explorer: improve routing button sizing on win32 multimonitor hidpi
+ Region manager: improve resize behavior on Windows HiDPI
+ Screen sets window: improve resize behavior on win32 HiDPI
+ Track manager: improve resize behavior on Windows HiDPI
+ macOS: improve appearance of static text fields when option to allow dark mode is enabled
# MIDI editor: action to select/unselect all events in lane affects all editable MIDI

Full changelog / Latest pre-releases
Edgemeal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 10:01 AM   #2
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 23,887
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
# MIDI editor: action to select/unselect all events in lane affects all editable MIDI
Brilliant! Thank you
EvilDragon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 10:45 AM   #3
ovnis
Human being with feelings
 
ovnis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,379
Default

Quote:
+ Automation items: when copy/pasting media items, also copy/paste all selected automation items [t=227409]
Nice feature. Plus, it would be a good idea to be able to move/paste media items + AI items when they are selected. Actually, to achieve this, we have to activate "envelopes point move with media items" but it's not accurate because we can't chose exactly AI which should move/past or not. To finish up, it's strange to not be able to handle elements which have been selected.

Last edited by ovnis; 12-18-2019 at 11:05 AM.
ovnis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 10:50 AM   #4
musicbynumbers
Human being with feelings
 
musicbynumbers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: brighton, uk
Posts: 12,790
Default

+ Automation items: when copy/pasting media items, also copy/paste all selected automation items

Nice! thanks

and agree with Ovnis.
__________________
subproject FRs click here
note: don't search for my pseudonym on the web. The "musicbynumbers" you find is not me or the name I use for my own music.
musicbynumbers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 11:17 AM   #5
ovnis
Human being with feelings
 
ovnis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,379
Default

Some unnecessary envelope points are created with "Paste item" (option:Add edge points when moving envelope points with items... OFF):



(option:Add edge points when moving envelope points with items... ON):


Last edited by ovnis; 12-18-2019 at 12:02 PM.
ovnis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 11:39 AM   #6
deeb
Human being with feelings
 
deeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,562
Default

Suggestions:
1) moving items should move always both selected items and Envelopes/AI (not dependent on "envelope points follow media items")
2) same same for changing item/ai edges and offset, the changes should be done for both selected types:

otherwise, it's a PITA to manage this during arranging process.

Last edited by deeb; 12-18-2019 at 11:48 AM.
deeb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 01:05 PM   #7
MRMJP
Human being with feelings
 
MRMJP's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Milwaukee, WI USA
Posts: 1,935
Default

MacOS Dark Mode is so good. It's seriously so much easier on the eyes.

Thank you much.

The Item Properties tab still somehow seems inverted or not quite right but overall, this is a HUGE improvement.
__________________
iMac Pro 3.0GHz 10-Core • 64GB RAM • SSD • MacOS 10.14.6 RME AES HDSPe
Mac Mini 3.2 GHz Intel Core i7 (6-Core) • 32GB RAM • SSD • MacOS 10.14.6 RME AES HDSPe
https://www.mysteryroommastering.com/ - https://www.justincarlperkins.com/
MRMJP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 01:07 PM   #8
sinkmusic
Human being with feelings
 
sinkmusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,423
Default FR : keep itemFX when dynamic splitting an item

Hi,
Would it be possible, in the Dynamic Split window, to give the user the option to keep the item FX when splitting an audio file ?
At the moment, splitting an item delete the itemFX without warning, which can be quite annoying...

I understand that it might be useful in some situations (big audio file resulting into hundreds of splits, each with itemFX), but the keeping itemFX can be useful in so many other situations...
Also, it would make the workflow more coherent with the regular split ([s]), which keep itemFX.
And it would give the user a better information of what is going on (at the moment, you don't know that your itemFX will be gone).
sinkmusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 01:23 PM   #9
Joe90
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 596
Default

Good stuff guys! Getting closer and closer to that super smooth multi-monitor HiDPI experience on Win10. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
Suggestions:
1) moving items should move always both selected items and Envelopes/AI (not dependent on "envelope points follow media items")
I don't understand why on earth you'd want to remove the option to toggle this on or off? If you always want envelopes/AI to follow items, why not just leave that toggle on? What happens if you want to move an item but not the envelopes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
2) same same for changing item/ai edges and offset, the changes should be done for both selected types:
Agree with this. To be honest it'd be nice to just be able to adjust the edges of an AI and the host item together, even if it wasn't automatic and you had to select them both first, currently this is not possible. I'd actually like it if there were an option to have AI's follow ALL parent items edits, I'm particularly thinking of delete and time-tretch (and the two you mentioned). Although again it should be a toggle option.

Not sure how it would work though - what if the AI is not the same size as it's respective item? Or you have one item with 3 small AI's underneath it, or vice versa? How is this handled when you adjust the main items edges, or offset? I guess the toggle option that allows this joint editing could also force AI's to 'attach' to items, so they follow the parent items size at all times, as well as following all aspects of standard editing done to the main item? At which point they become kind of a different beast... more useful to some (I'd love this behaviour) but less useful for others. It would restrict the range of things you can actually do with AI's, but make them much more intuitive for the most typical uses.
Joe90 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 01:43 PM   #10
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Farcey, Georgia
Posts: 2,207
Default

great! thanks! this is going to be a lot easier.

first issue: pasting an item/ai combo from a position after prjstart
results in an ai attempting to escape to the right



shown first - expected behavior
shown 2nd - issue
__________________
° using REAPER as host/arranger/sequencer to write instrumental beat music.
° striving for a loop-based, controller-centric midi recording/editing workflow.
° colored tracks/items: optionally respect "selected track/item" theme color

Last edited by mccrabney; 12-18-2019 at 01:54 PM.
mccrabney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 01:51 PM   #11
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Farcey, Georgia
Posts: 2,207
Default

Quote:
1) moving items should move always both selected items and Envelopes/AI (not dependent on "envelope points follow media items")
we need a third option:
1- envelope points follow media items
2- envelope points do not follow media items
3- envelope points follow selection. (ais only follow moving/copying/cutting items if they are selected)

edit, i somewhat recant this - see discussion below,
__________________
° using REAPER as host/arranger/sequencer to write instrumental beat music.
° striving for a loop-based, controller-centric midi recording/editing workflow.
° colored tracks/items: optionally respect "selected track/item" theme color

Last edited by mccrabney; 12-19-2019 at 05:18 AM.
mccrabney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 02:01 PM   #12
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Farcey, Georgia
Posts: 2,207
Default

Quote:
# MIDI editor: action to select/unselect all events in lane affects all editable MIDI
i'm also really glad to see this type of thing being addressed. there are still several actions that don't affect all editable midi, such as "Edit: Move events left/right (mousewheel/MIDI relative only)"

refer to https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=220043
__________________
° using REAPER as host/arranger/sequencer to write instrumental beat music.
° striving for a loop-based, controller-centric midi recording/editing workflow.
° colored tracks/items: optionally respect "selected track/item" theme color
mccrabney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 02:02 PM   #13
deeb
Human being with feelings
 
deeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,562
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
I don't understand why on earth you'd want to remove the option to toggle this on or off? If you always want envelopes/AI to follow items, why not just leave that toggle on? What happens if you want to move an item but not the envelopes?
i don't mean removing any option to toggle. I just mean if i have an AI and an Item both selected and drag one of them , then please move both, same as adjust edge and other relevant/compatible functions that might exist.

I'd use an option which i would toggle on: "Make AI and Items and Envelope points operations altogether as much as possible"

so if i have do things like delete, move content, adjust edje , move , etc apply it to whatever is selected as much as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
What happens if you want to move an item but not the envelopes?
I would deselect the envelope.

Last edited by deeb; 12-18-2019 at 02:07 PM.
deeb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 02:09 PM   #14
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Farcey, Georgia
Posts: 2,207
Default

a cool FR would be mouse modifiers for lasso select: one to select all items/ai, one to select only ai, and one to select only items. that would make for a fast way to use the proposed "ai follow selection" mode

i agree about selected ai/item edges moving together as well, but i might have to use it in order to see if there are unforeseen problems (like having a selected ai offscreen within a large item bounds, accidentally moving its edge with the item)
__________________
° using REAPER as host/arranger/sequencer to write instrumental beat music.
° striving for a loop-based, controller-centric midi recording/editing workflow.
° colored tracks/items: optionally respect "selected track/item" theme color
mccrabney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 02:29 PM   #15
deeb
Human being with feelings
 
deeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,562
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
a cool FR would be mouse modifiers for lasso select: one to select all items/ai, one to select only ai, and one to select only items. that would make for a fast way to use the proposed "ai follow selection" mode

Since with Area Selection what you select and see is what you work with and get, I think even a "simple" one would turn everything much smoother also in this regard.

Last edited by deeb; 12-18-2019 at 02:38 PM.
deeb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 03:57 PM   #16
Naquela
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Portugal
Posts: 41
Default

+ Automation items: when copy/pasting media items, also copy/paste all selected automation items

it will be great if have the option to copy/pasting/move only in the same track , and the item will be clean when you copy/pasting/move to another track , the same to automation .

this option will be wonderful
Thanks
__________________
Sonic Core Scope / UAD 2
Naquela is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 04:00 PM   #17
juliansader
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,968
Default

Quote:
+ Automation items: when copy/pasting media items, also copy/paste all selected automation items [t=227409]
MIs and AIs lose alignment when copy/pasted together. The selected AIs aren't pasted at the correct time positions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb
1) moving items should move always both selected items and Envelopes/AI (not dependent on "envelope points follow media items")
This is essential (and what we suggested long ago when AIs were first released). At the moment, there is no way to move selected AIs and selected MIs together, without all the rest of the envelopes underneath the MIs coming with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
I don't understand why on earth you'd want to remove the option to toggle this on or off? If you always want envelopes/AI to follow items, why not just leave that toggle on? What happens if you want to move an item but not the envelopes?
This will not remove the option, but will give greater flexibility. If you want to move an item but not the envelopes, make sure that the option is disabled, and make sure that no AIs are selected.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Not sure how it would work though - what if the AI is not the same size as it's respective item? Or you have one item with 3 small AI's underneath it, or vice versa?
It should work exactly the same when media items of different lengths are selected and stretched together.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
we need a third option:
1- envelope points follow media items
2- envelope points do not follow media items
3- envelope points follow selection. (ais only follow moving/copying/cutting items if they are selected)

i would select option 3 and never change it. i want to determine what moves/what doesn't move based on selection and selection alone.
I don't think that a new option 3 is necessary: In option 2, if you don't want the AIs to move/copy/cut together with the media items, simply don't select them -- similar to how you would determine which MIs should be edited together.

Last edited by juliansader; 12-18-2019 at 04:06 PM.
juliansader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 04:02 PM   #18
strachupl
Human being with feelings
 
strachupl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 417
Default

I still wonder why one can select automation items but not automation envelopes. Cheers.
__________________
The truth is not in the middle but exactly where it is.
strachupl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 04:17 PM   #19
Joe90
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 596
Default

Missed the 'selected' part, my bad. I see what you're saying now deeb - makes total sense. Thanks for the clarification.

Totally agree that if both MI and AI are selected they should be editable together, regardless of the 'envelopes points move...' toggle. I tend to keep that option on 95% of the time, so I hadn't actually noticed this wasn't possible.
Joe90 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 04:44 PM   #20
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Farcey, Georgia
Posts: 2,207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
I don't think that a new option 3 is necessary: In option 2, if you don't want the AIs to move/copy/cut together with the media items, simply don't select them -- similar to how you would determine which MIs should be edited together.
ok, that makes sense. agree.
__________________
° using REAPER as host/arranger/sequencer to write instrumental beat music.
° striving for a loop-based, controller-centric midi recording/editing workflow.
° colored tracks/items: optionally respect "selected track/item" theme color
mccrabney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 08:31 PM   #21
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 603
Default

Just gonna respectfully put in my 2cents regarding all these proposed options with whether automation/AI should or shouldn't follow items, et al. There is no combination of options, mouse modifiers, logic cases etc, that beat the "what you see is what you get" paradigm of Area Selection.

Want just the item? Draw a box around it. Want the item and underlying envelope? Draw a box around both. Want just the AI? Draw a box around it. No options, no "automation follows item" settings, no special corner cases, edgepoint madness. Literally draw a box around the things you want, then move/paste/delete them.

I know I've made this case a trillion times, but every time some of these limitations come up again in Pre discussions I cringe a bit because we start talking about adding options and mouse modifiers etc to deal with special cases, meanwhile Area Selection is the one true beautiful simple obvious solution. Draw a box around what you want, no questions or clarification necessary.

ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 10:00 PM   #22
Joe90
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 596
Default

I would LOVE to see area selection, Sexan seemed like he was getting close but it's been a while since he's posted on that thread, so who knows. It would be amazing to get it natively. Area selection is not only good for moving and arranging, it can also be a powerful tool for quickly adjusting envelopes, as displayed by this needlessly tiny gif -



Notice (if you can make it out) that the area selection has fade/volume handles and auto-creates new points when needed. Imagine this combined with the advanced envelope editing functions of something like Julian's multitool script... that would be killer.

However, even if we had area selection I don't think it changes the fact that if you select a media item and an AI and move them, they should move together. A traditional contiguous style area selection wouldn't really solve the issue Julian and Deeb are describing. For example - a media item is on a track with three active envelope lanes - and you might want to easily select the media item and the third envelope/AI and move only those together, area selection would not really make that any easier.
Joe90 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 12:22 AM   #23
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 23,887
Default

It would be really nice to have a default notation editor toolbar. We have separate toolbars for piano roll and for event list, but notation editor is different enough that it should warrant having its own default toolbar. Using up a floating toolbar is of course possible, but why waste a toolbar on this when we could get a default one that would automatically switch when we change MIDI editor mode?

EDIT: Also, in case we do the above (use up a toolbar and make a custom action to switch to notation mode AND change toolbar, then make custom action variants for piano roll/named notes mode AND switch back to main piano roll view), then when assigning those custom actions to toolbars doesn't actually retain the pressed state of the mode you're currently in, like the regular actions are doing. Can something be done about this?



Here's the situation. If I use the custom action set of ME mode changes (on the left), they don't show the state of the ME mode we're in. The native actions of course do. The only missing link here is notation mode having its own toolbar because we could have notation-specific actions up there, rather than share some unnecessary stuff with main piano roll toolbar (like quantize/humanize, MIDI CC shapes, etc.)

My suggestion would be if any of these actions were used in a custom action:

Mode: Drum Map (40043)
Mode: Event List (40056)
Mode: Notation (40954)
Mode: Piano Roll (40042)

then the toggle state should also be inherited by the toolbar button to which that custom action is assigned!

(But also adding a native toolbar for notation editor would also be cool!)

Last edited by EvilDragon; 12-19-2019 at 12:53 AM.
EvilDragon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 04:30 AM   #24
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Farcey, Georgia
Posts: 2,207
Default

Quote:
Draw a box around what you want, no questions or clarification necessary.
i support the need for area selection functionality and i think it's one of REAPER's more pressing shortcomings -- but the bolded is just not true. there are a lot of normal use cases that are going to require modifiers etc even if 'just draw a box around it' is implemented exactly as shown in these area selection gifs.

use case: you've 'drawn a box' around some items and ai, with the intention of copying it later in the project. you might want those items/ai split at selection (as shown in most of the AS gifs). but on the other hand, you might want to preserve the full item length (to accommodate fadeouts, reverb tails, fx param changes, etc). neither are crazy, special cases, in fact the latter is probably more appropriate for complex arrangements with a lot of lead-ins, fade outs, etc. so, modifier request: [modifier]drag: split at box edges, or maintain full item/ai selection.

echoing my previous comment, let's say you've got your ai on your media lanes and you want to 'draw a box' around your items, but not your ai (or vice versa). neither are crazy, special cases. so there's 3x modifier requests: select items/ai, select items, select ai.

and what about snapping the box to the arrange grid while click-dragging to create the box? awesome, i'd love that - less careful pixel chasing and zooming to make sure i'm on grid... and there's another modifier request.

so let's not pretend that we are tilting at windmills when a perfect FR would solve everybody's problems. either way, getting the functionality of area selection is going to be an iterative process with a LOT of different normal, non-corner use cases coming to light.

but by all means, bring on the ability to create [multiple non-contiguous], [optionally quantized] lasso boxes that can either [respect item/ai length] OR [split them at box edge], AND that can selectively grab [ai, items, or both]
__________________
° using REAPER as host/arranger/sequencer to write instrumental beat music.
° striving for a loop-based, controller-centric midi recording/editing workflow.
° colored tracks/items: optionally respect "selected track/item" theme color

Last edited by mccrabney; 12-19-2019 at 04:42 AM.
mccrabney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 04:38 AM   #25
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Farcey, Georgia
Posts: 2,207
Default

Quote:
A traditional contiguous style area selection wouldn't really solve the issue Julian and Deeb are describing. For example - a media item is on a track with three active envelope lanes - and you might want to easily select the media item and the third envelope/AI and move only those together, area selection would not really make that any easier.
hence the non-contiguous boxes, which i consider to be part of the core area selection request
ala gimp with its ugly caterpillar selection indicators:



an even better example of how even non-contiguous area selection wouldn't simply solve the issue is how to select either ai or items when [ai are displayed on the media lane]. it's going to take additional modifiers one way or another, and that's fine - it just needs to be remembered when area selection is presented as some one-FR-fixes-everything solution
__________________
° using REAPER as host/arranger/sequencer to write instrumental beat music.
° striving for a loop-based, controller-centric midi recording/editing workflow.
° colored tracks/items: optionally respect "selected track/item" theme color

Last edited by mccrabney; 12-19-2019 at 04:52 AM.
mccrabney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 04:50 AM   #26
Vagelis
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Larisa, Greece
Posts: 523
Default

Sorry to chime in, but we soon enter 2020 and yet Reaper doesn't have a proper area selection, which is a huge con for editing ... Various workarounds with actions are not helping at all, compared with the advantages of area selection.
Vagelis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 05:11 AM   #27
Ideosound
Human being with feelings
 
Ideosound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: U.K
Posts: 190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
Sorry to chime in, but we soon enter 2020 and yet Reaper doesn't have a proper area selection, which is a huge con for editing ... Various workarounds with actions are not helping at all, compared with the advantages of area selection.
This would be a massive help also. Really hoping we can see this implemented.
Ideosound is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 05:16 AM   #28
Ideosound
Human being with feelings
 
Ideosound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: U.K
Posts: 190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naquela View Post
+ Automation items: when copy/pasting media items, also copy/paste all selected automation items

it will be great if have the option to copy/pasting/move only in the same track , and the item will be clean when you copy/pasting/move to another track , the same to automation .

this option will be wonderful
Thanks
+1

Would this mean you can now nudge media items and automation items when both are selected or grouped? I couldn't seem to make this work last time I checked (haven't checked this build)
Ideosound is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 06:06 AM   #29
enroe
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 499
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
we need a third option:
1- envelope points follow media items
2- envelope points do not follow media items
3- envelope points follow selection. (ais only follow moving/copying/cutting items if they are selected)

edit, i somewhat recant this - see discussion below,
Ok ok. But still this is an example for a more general Reaper characteristic:
It is the "optionism"!

"Optionism" means that you have an nearly infinite list of options in the
preferences pretending that there are many features. But it is only "a
pretending" resulting from the fact that there is a lack of a logic and
intuitive workflow.

Here is a good example of "optionism". Point (3) "envelope points follow
selection" should be always and forever be in function. Because this is what
a selection is for. There is not need to disable it. Instead just don't
select items you don't want to put an action on.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Maccrabney already realized this. Ferropop put it very intelligible:

Quote:
There is no combination of options, mouse modifiers, logic
cases etc, that beat the "what you see is what you get" paradigm.

Want just the item? Draw a box around it.
Want the item and underlying envelope? Draw a box around both.
Want just the AI? Draw a box around it.

No options, no "automation follows item" settings, no special corner
cases, edgepoint madness. Literally draw a box around the things you
want.
__________________
free mp3s + info: andy-enroe.de songs and weird stuff: enroe.de
enroe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 06:12 AM   #30
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Farcey, Georgia
Posts: 2,207
Default

'draw a box around it' will not be immune from charges of "optionism"

Quote:
Because this is what a selection is for. There is not need to disable it. Instead just don't select items you don't want to put an action on.
sentence 1, agree. sentence 2, agree.
sentence 3 is where 'just draw a box around it' will break down in different use cases, as illustrated above.

this is not a critique of the FR, but an apparently necessary reminder that it's not as simple as 'just draw a box around it.' and that's where those options/modifiers are going to be necessary in order to fulfill the various forms that the area selection FR have taken.
__________________
° using REAPER as host/arranger/sequencer to write instrumental beat music.
° striving for a loop-based, controller-centric midi recording/editing workflow.
° colored tracks/items: optionally respect "selected track/item" theme color
mccrabney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 06:15 AM   #31
juliansader
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,968
Default

Whatever the devs plans for area selection might be, we still need the existing, basic copy/cut/move/paste/etc actions to properly with AIs, so all this discussion about area selection is neither here nor there, and not relevant to this pre-release.
juliansader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 06:17 AM   #32
Ideosound
Human being with feelings
 
Ideosound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: U.K
Posts: 190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
Whatever the devs plans for area selection might be, we still need the existing, basic copy/cut/move/paste/etc actions to properly with AIs, so all this discussion about area selection is neither here nor there, and not relevant to this pre-release.
Agreed let's not lose focus.
Ideosound is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 08:08 AM   #33
Mordi
Human being with feelings
 
Mordi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 712
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
+ macOS: improve appearance of static text fields when option to allow dark mode is enabled
Here's a related bug, when running dark mode in Windows 10:
__________________
Mordi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 08:39 AM   #34
deeb
Human being with feelings
 
deeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,562
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
this is not a critique of the FR, but an apparently necessary reminder that it's not as simple as 'just draw a box around it.' and that's where those options/modifiers are going to be necessary in order to fulfill the various forms that the area selection FR have taken.
it's as simple as that in user perspective i think, but is destructive on the edges if it needs too (but only when it needs too), but with user awareness and know how this is a working methodology that will give most flexibility.
deeb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 08:43 AM   #35
deeb
Human being with feelings
 
deeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,562
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
Whatever the devs plans for area selection might be, we still need the existing, basic copy/cut/move/paste/etc actions to properly with AIs, so all this discussion about area selection is neither here nor there, and not relevant to this pre-release.
but since Area selection also does this , it's relevant to be aware of it at least.
Ofcourse basic stuff like you saying should be addressed by it's own, but it's good to be aware what area selection does and it's strong benefits in order to combine both copy/move/blabla methods in the best way possible.
deeb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 10:48 AM   #36
jnif
Human being with feelings
 
jnif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,090
Default

AI and item selection is not consistent when using shift left click to select range of items and/or AIs.



jnif
jnif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 10:49 AM   #37
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 603
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
i support the need for area selection functionality and i think it's one of REAPER's more pressing shortcomings -- but the bolded is just not true. there are a lot of normal use cases that are going to require modifiers etc even if 'just draw a box around it' is implemented exactly as shown in these area selection gifs.

use case: you've 'drawn a box' around some items and ai, with the intention of copying it later in the project. you might want those items/ai split at selection (as shown in most of the AS gifs). but on the other hand, you might want to preserve the full item length (to accommodate fadeouts, reverb tails, fx param changes, etc). neither are crazy, special cases, in fact the latter is probably more appropriate for complex arrangements with a lot of lead-ins, fade outs, etc. so, modifier request: [modifier]drag: split at box edges, or maintain full item/ai selection.

echoing my previous comment, let's say you've got your ai on your media lanes and you want to 'draw a box' around your items, but not your ai (or vice versa). neither are crazy, special cases. so there's 3x modifier requests: select items/ai, select items, select ai.

and what about snapping the box to the arrange grid while click-dragging to create the box? awesome, i'd love that - less careful pixel chasing and zooming to make sure i'm on grid... and there's another modifier request.

so let's not pretend that we are tilting at windmills when a perfect FR would solve everybody's problems. either way, getting the functionality of area selection is going to be an iterative process with a LOT of different normal, non-corner use cases coming to light.

but by all means, bring on the ability to create [multiple non-contiguous], [optionally quantized] lasso boxes that can either [respect item/ai length] OR [split them at box edge], AND that can selectively grab [ai, items, or both]
Totally agree McCrabney, "draw a box" will still require modifiers, but the root of the functionality is solved completely by it. It takes away the ambiguity of your targeted material, and it's the ambiguity that creates the multiple layers of options/modifiers/logic cases. Like, do we have a modifier for "copy Item with First Lane of Automation" action, different one for "with second lane" etc? No, just select the item and if you want automation you select the (specific) automation lanes, and do your operation.

I know what you're saying, but the whole point is that with Area Selection you just literally pick exactly what you want to be operating on - you see it with your eyes - there's no questions what stuff you're operating on.

Also I can only make a personal preference judgement, but using AI in the media lane just seems like a terrible idea haha. Too much going on in such a cramped space, the mouse can do 50 different things within a 10 pixel radius.
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 11:01 AM   #38
juliansader
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
AI and item selection is not consistent when using shift left click to select range of items and/or AIs.
Strangely, range selection of AIs works correctly *across* tracks, but not within a single track: Automation items: Shift-click range select works across tracks but not lanes
juliansader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 11:17 AM   #39
Mercado_Negro
Moderator
 
Mercado_Negro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Caracas, Venezuela
Posts: 8,269
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Just gonna respectfully put in my 2cents regarding all these proposed options with whether automation/AI should or shouldn't follow items, et al. There is no combination of options, mouse modifiers, logic cases etc, that beat the "what you see is what you get" paradigm of Area Selection.

Want just the item? Draw a box around it. Want the item and underlying envelope? Draw a box around both. Want just the AI? Draw a box around it. No options, no "automation follows item" settings, no special corner cases, edgepoint madness. Literally draw a box around the things you want, then move/paste/delete them.

I know I've made this case a trillion times, but every time some of these limitations come up again in Pre discussions I cringe a bit because we start talking about adding options and mouse modifiers etc to deal with special cases, meanwhile Area Selection is the one true beautiful simple obvious solution. Draw a box around what you want, no questions or clarification necessary.

Indeed. Area Selection is definitely the solution to many shortcomings of our current time selection. Start the selection on media lane? Select media items only. Start on the envelope lane? Select points and automation items only. Want to select several automation points and items across different (and not necessarily contiguous) lanes? No problem, draw an Area Selection on the ones you want and copy/paste/move them wherever you want.

Area Selection is the ONLY feature missing in REAPER to make it the most powerful editing software for audio work.
__________________
Pressure is what turns coal into diamonds - Michael a.k.a. Runaway
Mercado_Negro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 11:21 AM   #40
jnif
Human being with feelings
 
jnif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,090
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
we need a third option:
1- envelope points follow media items
2- envelope points do not follow media items
3- envelope points follow selection. (ais only follow moving/copying/cutting items if they are selected)
Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
I don't think that a new option 3 is necessary: In option 2, if you don't want the AIs to move/copy/cut together with the media items, simply don't select them -- similar to how you would determine which MIs should be edited together.
But, I think the problem is that with option 2 you cannot move media items and AIs together even when both are selected.
With option 3 you could do all types of move/copy/cut combinations intuitively.

Currently it is difficult to know what happens when editing both media items and AIs together. The things that make these edits confusing are
  1. Move is somehow special operation and is treated differently than cut/copy/delete.
  2. Behavior is not symmetric. When both media items and AIs are selected, move and copy operations work differently depending on which one is clicked last, media item or AI.

jnif
jnif is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.