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01-14-2020, 11:22 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 70
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Recording real drums - Recommend a Plug-in
Hi all, thanks for the help.
I have my drum kit mic’ed up into several tracks (Snare, Bass, Toms, Overhead) in Reaper. I’d like to manipulate each track to my liking. Can you recommend a single Drum Plug-in, free or paid, that I can use for most if not all of my drum needs? Thanks
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01-14-2020, 12:20 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,823
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what are your drum needs?
compression, gate, eq, reverb are all commonly used on drums - zillions of choices - if you are looking for an all-in-one solution then maybe you want to be looking for a channel strip or something? But bear in mind that a cymbal is normally treated differently to a kick drum, for example, so you are unlikely to find a plugin that does everything you want for all sources, i would think.
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01-14-2020, 12:54 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domzy
what are your drum needs?
compression, gate, eq, reverb are all commonly used on drums - zillions of choices - if you are looking for an all-in-one solution then maybe you want to be looking for a channel strip or something? But bear in mind that a cymbal is normally treated differently to a kick drum, for example, so you are unlikely to find a plugin that does everything you want for all sources, i would think.
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Thanks Domzy.
Being a newb I'm hoping for an 'all in one' Plug-in that lets me select a kit piece, ie Snare, then use it to manipulate the sounds for the recorded Snare track. Maybe when a specific kit piece is selected it would not only have the usual EQ, Comp, Reverb, but also allow you to select a type, size, manufacturer, model ect. Perfect for a newbie.
Probably wishful thinking
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01-14-2020, 12:59 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Codeseven
type, size, manufacturer, model etc.
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Of what?
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01-14-2020, 01:20 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErBird
Of what?
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Hi ErBird.
With the Snare as an example, such as size, 14x7, Sonor, wood, etc.
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01-14-2020, 01:23 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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I think there's a conflation of terms, if you are recording real drums with mics then you manipulate those with compressors, EQs and so on. But when you say I want to pick sonar blah blah blah... You are not describing real drums but a drum VSTi with it's own samples and those being triggered by MIDI.
The only way to have both is to have the audio from your real drums to trigger sampled drums etc. by essentially turning your real drum hits into midi notes that in turn trigger the drum VSTi sampler/plugin etc. etc.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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01-14-2020, 01:32 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I think there's a conflation of terms, if you are recording real drums with mics then you manipulate those with compressors, EQs and so on. But when you say I want to pick sonar blah blah blah... You are not describing real drums but a drum VSTi with it's own samples and those being triggered by MIDI.
The only way to have both is to have the audio from your real drums to trigger sampled drums etc. by essentially turning your real drum hits into midi notes that in turn trigger the drum VSTi sampler/plugin etc. etc.
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Ah, your right, my bad. Confusion on my part, sorry.
So, can something like Superior Drummer be selected in Reaper as an AU or VST, then the hits on the recorded Snare track trigger the snare in Superior drummer?
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01-14-2020, 01:43 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Codeseven
Hi ErBird.
With the Snare as an example, such as size, 14x7, Sonor, wood, etc.
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Ok, interesting. Your original post makes it seem like you want to use your own recorded drum sounds. Do you want to layer in samples or replace the sound completely? Of course it's all possible, but maybe not ideal timing-wise if you're not using MIDI triggers.
There are plugins that you can put on an audio track to detect drum hits and send out a MIDI note to any VSTi. If you have a mic-per-drum this would be much better than having to filter a single mic track. That never works quite right.
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01-14-2020, 01:50 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Codeseven
Thanks Domzy.
Being a newb I'm hoping for an 'all in one' Plug-in that lets me select a kit piece, ie Snare, then use it to manipulate the sounds for the recorded Snare track. Maybe when a specific kit piece is selected it would not only have the usual EQ, Comp, Reverb, but also allow you to select a type, size, manufacturer, model ect. Perfect for a newbie.
Probably wishful thinking
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not entirely, i'm pretty sure there are some plugins that do offer something similar to the first bit - the waves producer packs certainly used to - Waves CLA, Maserati, JJP etc. though i can't comment on their quality.
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01-14-2020, 01:56 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,823
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for triggering there is drumagog
https://www.drumagog.com/
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01-14-2020, 01:58 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 70
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Sorry guys, I'm totally confusing the subject, my bad.
Simply put, I recorded my drum kit, each kit piece with it's own mic, onto multiple tracks in Reaper. Now that I have done so, I'm looking to adjust each kit piece's sound. Forget the Superior Drummer thoughts. I can use the many built in Fx already already in Reaper or, I was looking to download an all in one 'Drum Plug-In' that has all the kit pieces built in (Snare, Bass, Cymbals) that I can select depending on the kit piece sound I'm working on.
Probably doesn't exist but I'm just throwing it out there.
Thanks
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01-14-2020, 02:02 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Codeseven
Probably doesn't exist but I'm just throwing it out there.
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If I understand then the closest I can think of is something like this:
https://www.waves.com/plugins/cla-dr...SAAEgKfcfD_BwE
Where you would place the same plugin on each drum track then select the type of drum that it is per track.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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01-14-2020, 02:08 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
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That was my impression, that OP is looking for grouped effect "presets" that would apply to both the type of drum, and hoping for these presets to drill down further to have settings for specific sizes, brands, and/or construction methods.
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01-14-2020, 03:18 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
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Yes! Thank you, karbomusic.
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01-14-2020, 03:20 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reason
That was my impression, that OP is looking for grouped effect "presets" that would apply to both the type of drum, and hoping for these presets to drill down further to have settings for specific sizes, brands, and/or construction methods.
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Exactly. Sorry I didn’t get that across to begin with. Thanks for hanging in there guys.
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01-14-2020, 03:32 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Codeseven
Exactly. Sorry I didn’t get that across to begin with. Thanks for hanging in there guys.
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Yeah, that doesn't exist. There are too many variables in how drums are tuned, played and mic'd up. Plus, it would just be EQ and compression anyway.
What kind of drum sound are you going for?
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01-14-2020, 03:43 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
Yeah, that doesn't exist. There are too many variables in how drums are tuned, played and mic'd up. Plus, it would just be EQ and compression anyway.
What kind of drum sound are you going for?
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I was looking for something along the lines of the suggested Waves Plug-In. Where a newbie can simply click on ‘Snare’ and be given several parameters to manipulate and/or preset snare drums to choose from.
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01-15-2020, 06:37 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 184
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I was reading through this and have to admit to being a little confused too. But someone mentioned Drumagog, and that's what I've been using for many years to do drum sample replacement. It sounds like that's what Codeseven was asking about. Even if it's not helpful to Codeseven, my response might be interesting to someone else.
For the simple purpose of changing the sound of a snare, or a kick, or a tom, into a different sounding snare, or kick, or tom, Drumagog works really well. It comes with a lot of excellent sample/GOG files. I don't know if it's still available, but Steven Slate had released a set of sample/GOG files many years ago that I still use to this day (more in the vein of hard rock or metal or classic rock). I think Slate has their own version of a drum sample replacer, so those samples are likely included there. You can make your own GOG files too using WAV samples that you recorded yourself. Drumagog's sample library includes some drum machine sounds which would be great for hip hop or techno.
Drumagog can work one of two ways: it has it's own built-in transient detection algorithm that works in real time (meaning it does it's thing during playback as it's "listening" to the recorded track) or you can trigger it with a MIDI file. I've used it both ways and prefer the MIDI file option. Creating a MIDI file/item from the transients of the original audio item gives you better accuracy of placement and control of the volume of each hit. Drumagog's own detection system is often not in perfect alignment. Mis-triggers would be a deal breaker for anyone I would think. But that means you have to create a MIDI item for each drum track. A little tedious but worth the effort in the long run.
I often just use Drumagog to embellish the original sound, but I also use it for flat out replacement. It can be a lifesaver for kits that don't sound so good to begin with. I rarely have any say about what a client brings into my studio so I'm forced to do the best I can with the options I have available to me. Anyway... I hope this helps.
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Reaper V6.19, Samplitude Pro X4 Suite, Cakewalk Sonar 8.5, Sonic Core XITE-1/Scope V5, Sonic Core A16 Ultra A/D converter, Windows 10 Pro 64
Last edited by Larry Kriz; 01-15-2020 at 08:58 AM.
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01-15-2020, 07:54 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 3,201
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Bass Professor Mk2 works great on drum tracks. It's perfect for tweaking individual drum sounds. It's basically a 7 band compressor with a 'dirt' control if you want to dirty up the sound a bit. Pretty low CPU load, too, for what it does.
Last edited by Philbo King; 01-15-2020 at 08:00 AM.
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01-15-2020, 09:29 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,560
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I have to mix a multitracked drum kit and I get one single plugin to choose?
Alright. ReaEQ then.
I know I'm gonna need to adjust/restrict some areas on something in most of those mics (as you do). Wouldn't be able to do much with anything else - certainly not compression hyped anything - without that starting point. Properly balanced drums could certainly be called finished just at that point though!
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01-15-2020, 12:39 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,560
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There are recorded drums.
There are sampled drums.
Which one is desired here? I'm not 100% sure after reading some of the posts.
If you're going after recording real drums though, a lot of it is in the drums, tuning thereof, the room, mic placement. All of those things before we even talk about the kind of mics! (Which we'll get to.)
Don't start throwing money at plugins hoping for a revelation!
Listen to your tracks. Is something wrong? What is it? Post back in the forum and ask those questions.
There isn't a 100% autopilot for recorded sound yet but there are powerful tools in the basic (and some not so basic) plugins bundled with Reaper.
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01-15-2020, 04:31 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Codeseven
Thanks Domzy.
Being a newb I'm hoping for an 'all in one' Plug-in that lets me select a kit piece, ie Snare, then use it to manipulate the sounds for the recorded Snare track. Maybe when a specific kit piece is selected it would not only have the usual EQ, Comp, Reverb, but also allow you to select a type, size, manufacturer, model ect. Perfect for a newbie.
Probably wishful thinking
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You're looking for a unicorn. It's like looking for that guitar pedal that has the "don't suck" button on it. Mic technique is what you need to learn.
If you're just starting out, gate every close mic on the system and study up on what compression does for you. Also learn about phasing and the problems it can cause.
Or better, google up "recorderman" and use that technique. You'll spend more time recording music and less time futzing with recording software.
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01-15-2020, 04:32 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 184
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I have some of those Waves CLA and JJP plugs. They're great. If you're looking for a sort of "swiss army knife" approach to effects processing, those plugs have a lot to offer. Top of class really.
It was nice to see Waves offer up their products at prices anyone can afford. It made a nice difference in the quality of my mixes. Have fun trying out new stuff! You're on the right track. I know you'll do well.
PS - you know... Reaper's bundled plugs can probably get you in the same zone if you're willing to devote the time. They're not as fancy looking, and kind of one trick pony... but combined you can do a lot of damage lololol. I've been slowly worming my way through some of that stuff. I wish the documentation was a little better... Some of these 3rd-party plug developers create headaches for themselves, and the host DAW they're used in. I was having nothing but trouble with Waves in Samplitude. That was one of the reasons I ended up here in Reaper land. Reaper seems impervious to a lot of bad plug-programming lolol
__________________
Reaper V6.19, Samplitude Pro X4 Suite, Cakewalk Sonar 8.5, Sonic Core XITE-1/Scope V5, Sonic Core A16 Ultra A/D converter, Windows 10 Pro 64
Last edited by Larry Kriz; 01-15-2020 at 04:41 PM.
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01-16-2020, 10:33 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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In Superior drummer from Toontrack you can import your own drum tracks/samples and manipulate them from within SD. This is also do-able in many other drum romplers. Also I have Native Instruments Battery, which does allow you to load amd manipulate all your own stuff AND name the individual cells as to what kit pieces they contain. But I don't know that any of these would be any better than forming a group in reaper for the drum tracks and doing it from within the group. Its sort of like a mini mixer...just add the plugins as you need them & save the group out.
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Ici on parles Franglais
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01-16-2020, 11:15 AM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 70
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Thanks guys.
@jerome- That’s some sage advice, I totally agree with you. I’ll research what you suggested, thanks.
@Larry- Thanks again for your replies and support. I’ll look into Reapers built in plugins too.
@ivansc- Whoa, didn’t even think or know about doing the opposite. I have the older Superior Drums 2 disc set. I’m curious about importing the ‘real’ drum tracks from Reaper into SD2, interesting, thanks.
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01-19-2020, 11:38 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
Posts: 421
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You could build some channel strips for each drum with the plugs and settings you like then recall (eg) the Snare one for the snare track etc. I did something like this with a session I did with a mate playing drums on 4 songs where we didn't change the setup between numbers so as I got the (eg) snare sounding sweet I saved the plugs as a template and then recalled them as I did the next track.
In fact you could go one further and save a whole project as a template with all the tracks, inputs, plugs etc all as you want them before you start tracking.
One tip - Rough Rider, a free compressor, sounds great parallel processing the drum bus.
Good luck.
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01-19-2020, 11:41 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
Posts: 421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome_oneil
You're looking for a unicorn. It's like looking for that guitar pedal that has the "don't suck" button on it. Mic technique is what you need to learn.
If you're just starting out, gate every close mic on the system and study up on what compression does for you. Also learn about phasing and the problems it can cause.
Or better, google up "recorderman" and use that technique. You'll spend more time recording music and less time futzing with recording software.
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Agree! I use Glyn Johns which is 4 mics and great as it's easy to set up and it's been used on everyone from Led Zeppelin to the Eagles. Not by me though. 😄
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01-22-2020, 10:27 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Forgot to add a "me too" on the waves jjp stuff. I have & use it - works great, but you do have to be careful about what it does to your levels. Evidently Mr Puig is not afraid to overload the output signal to hell and gone!
Getting a good balance between the input signal to the plug being hot enough to push the plugin into action & not needing to cut off most of the output to get back to where you started can sorta sneak up on you if you are like me.
Mix with ears not eyes far to often
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Ici on parles Franglais
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01-22-2020, 10:58 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,779
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I've never done this kind of thing but if you are planning drum-replacement from the get-go I think you're better-off starting with electronic/MIDI drums. You'll get a clean-capture of every hit and you can drop-in whatever sounds you like, as well as adjust/correct the timing.
Or forget about playing the drums and program them with EZdrummer or Superior Drummer, etc.
I think drum replacement is mostly for when you've already recorded the band and then you realize "something's not right".
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01-22-2020, 01:31 PM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
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I really like TR5 British Channel for drums. Has pretty much everything you need (gate, compression, eq). But I also find it a bit more important to dial in the Drum Buss sound than the individual tracks. Any "glue" compressor can work for this or even a couple in series, doing just a little compression.
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02-16-2020, 04:00 PM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 70
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Been awhile, but thanks for your replies.
I ended up buying Slate’s Trigger 2. I like playing my acoustic kit, listening through my IEM’s, and having the ability to modify or replace each drum lit sound. I’ve been doing that with Trigger using it’s built in samples, and using Reapers built in Audio to MIDI Drum Trigger plugin to trigger Superior Drummer’s samples. Both work fine, but Trigger is noticeably better. The SD samples don’t trigger as ‘smoothly’, especially velocity wise. I don’t know if it’s a JS plug-in limitation, my lack of knowledge, or a compilation of both.
I notice Trigger can convert to and then send MIDI so I thought I would try it instead of the JS Plugin but have been unable to send MIDI to the Superior track. The JS MIDI plugin triggers Superior so I know the routing is correct but there is no triggering when switching to Trigger. Under Settings in Trigger I have MIDI Out checked, Channel 10 and 36 : C1 for Kick sounds. (JS plugin is also set to MIDI Channel 36.0 and works).
Is there a setting I’m missing? Thanks
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02-17-2020, 03:53 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaban
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Thanks Calaban, I’ll check those links out.
Seems Trigger ‘should’ send MIDI live to Superior but maybe the MIDI function is only to convert audio to MIDI in order for Superior to be able to read it non-live.
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