Volume scale

[jm duchenne]

Hi,

Is there a way to change the volume automation and the items volume scale ?
By default, even when zooming vertically a lot, it is impossible to draw or edit points below -30 db. Nearly all the available space goes between -20 to +6.
I have searched for changing the scale in the options to have something more usable, but I didn't found it.

Can somebody help me ?

By the way, it is the same problem with ReaEQ frenquency curves. How do you succed to draw the curves ???
Is there a way to have the same scale for the enveloppe than for the slider inside the ReaEQ GUI ?

Thank you a lot !

[jm duchenne]

... something like the "Shape" value option for the Volume fader range, but for the Volume enveloppe and the Item's volume.

[jm duchenne]

hmmm...
nobody automates volume ???

[gregh]

I agree JM - continuous volume automation could be improved. Clip automation is good although would be better if the fades could have their starting amplitude set as well. There are many programs with better systems that could be (and hopefully will be) inspiration for improved systems. For sophisticated adjustments I use my external editor (Audition) in edit or multitrack mode. However Reaper is vastly superior to Audition for most multitrack activity.

[DarkStar]

+1 from me too.

... but I'd like scales for all automation curves, these will allow much more precision

[jm duchenne]

Yes, it is a very strange behaviour for a DAW not being able to edit volume below - 20 db...
I have found a workaround with a modified version of the JS Volume plugin which I have limited in the range 0 to - 50 dB. It doesn't replace a normal volume scale but at least allows to have some nuance

But for the ReaEQ, it will be impossible without a proper exponential scale.

[norbury brook]

+1 there's something funky about the way this works.I think it's tied in with the fact you can change log/linear fader values and the fact you can change the fader ranges as well.I think it would be better not to have these user configurable and have them set at a fixed 'normal' usage like most DAW's .I'm sure that would then help with the Automation.


MC

[Amberience]

If you fold out the track fullscreen, you can edit the envelopes to a more precise detail. You can also right click on an envelope point, choose "set value" and enter a precise value.

[jm duchenne]

Here you can compare identical volume curves in several hosts and how they can be edited.
The points goes from 0 db to -60 db in 6 db steps.

Audition has the smoother one, Podium is very good, both easy and precise, and even Cubase which has a rather steep one allows to draw and edit all the points.
Reaper is the only one where all the points below -30 db are practically impossible to edit, the last ones even when zooming on the full vertical range.

Reaper :


Audition :


Podium :


Cubase :

[jm duchenne]

and some others :

Tracktion :


Usine :


Live :

[jm duchenne]

Bump...

After using Reaper for a while, adjusting the volume envelopes remains for me the main problem. It is a real nightmare for controlling smooth shapes in low levels, and envelopes never look to what they do.
It becomes usable when combining the items volume envelope together with the track volume envelope, which is far from being easy to edit...

Please, can you consider adding an option to turn the scale into log or linear like for ReaEQ ? Or better to have a custom curve value setting ?

Thanks a lot.

[jm duchenne]

Curve scale values :
Reaper = -6 dB
Cubase = -12 dB
Tracktion = -12 dB
Live = -16 dB ?
Podium = -18 dB
Usine = -18 dB
Audition = -24 dB

[jm duchenne]

Presonus Studio One :


Perfect down to -50 dB, and rather flat down to -144 dB, a little odd, but definitely far better than Reaper !

[xackley]

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=299

There is an Elevated Feature Request to be able to draw envelopes. This new feature would be useless unless the problem that is described in this thread is resolved.

I also think that 0db should not be on the center line. The entire upper half of the lane is wasted on +6db. The 0db needs to be moved higher in the lane.
Perhaps the shape should also be tied into the Option for Volume Fader range and shape. Making sure that there is a way to draw all the way down to the Min in the space available in the lane.
Mathematically the current scaling for volumes may be some how correct, but not at all practical. They do not represent what is being heard.

[jm duchenne]

Exactly.

And I have tried the drawing mode in Studio One which is not far from perfect for me : the same for automation curves and MIDI controllers curves, a good automatic reduction points, and, of course, the possibility to lasso-select points across several lanes and to copy/paste them

But like you say, it would not be very usefull if the curve is the same as Reaper's.
Linking the envelope curve together with the volume slider's curve would be nice...

[norbury brook]

I've a feeling it's to do with being log rather than linear.I mentioned this a while ago too


MC

[norbury brook]

has there been any advancement on this? I've returned to reaper after a while and this still seems to be an issue.


MC

[jm duchenne]

Hi,

Any chance, please ???

A simple option case to check, like for the automation curve of ReaEQ (Log-scale automated volume), would make me happy and work in a considerable better way.

Thanks in advance...

[jm duchenne]

It was lacking a view of Protools' curve :



Not the best (for my taste), but very usable...

[zvish]

bump for this thread!

[jm duchenne]

Any chance for v.4.0 ???

Please, Devs, 3 years after the start of this question, answer and tell us why you cannot do it ?

I've seen marvelous things for pan (among others...) and it is always so difficult and unprecise to edit low levels volume. It is the only thing that prevents some friends from switching to Reaper !

[geoffroy]

bump bump

[Death Valley Yacht Club]

I'd love to see this improved.

There's a feature request, that I don't think has been mentioned here, on the issue at:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1736

Vote early & vote often.

[schwa]

From another thread ... there is more discussion of the subject in that thread, but this thread is a better place to continue the conversation.

Originally Posted by schwa

This has been requested forever, but it isn't simple, or else it would have happened a long time ago. When I say "not simple", I don't mean that the math is impossible, instead I mean that the user experience would become complicated.

Volume envelopes in REAPER have always been linear with amplitude. If you have an envelope point at -12dB and an envelope point at +0dB, and you have a straight envelope line between the points, the envelope will increase with linear amplitude -- not linear decibels, and not linear with respect to the volume fader scale.

There is no linear transformation between the existing volume scale and linear decibels or fader scale. In other words, a straight line in an existing volume volume envelope would no longer be a straight line if the envelope were transformed so that it matches the volume fader scale. If the envelope remained as a straight line, the volume at the halfway point on the line would be different depending on what scaling mode was used.

There is no great solution for this. We could (eventually) add a separate type of volume envelope that matches the fader scale, but you wouldn't be able to convert between the existing volume envelopes and the new type -- they would need to be separate envelopes.

Originally Posted by schwa

It's also the case that a straight line in a volume envelope with linear-dB units will not be a straight line in a volume envelope with PGF8k units. Since REAPER lets you select from various scales for the volume faders, this issue would be coming up no matter what scale units REAPER used by default in its envelopes.

Originally Posted by l0calh05t

I figured as much because linear space is the only one that can be compatible with all fader settings. Personally I see two options:

a. Just display the envelope in fader space. Yes, this means linear interpolation between dots will be displayed as a strange curve, but since that IS the fader behavior you'd get, I think most people could live with that.

b. Instead of having envelope type and fader shape a global setting, both could be turned into per-project settings (like pan already is), including a legacy true linear setting which behaves as before and a fader dependent envelope setting which performs interpolation in fader space (thus necessitating per-project storage of fader shape)

[geoffroy]

Just displaying the envelope in fader space would be perfect in my opinion.

[EvilDragon]

I very much agree with l0calh0st's suggestions. Both of them. It should happen. Copying the fader behavior makes a LOT of sense, and is perfectly describing what the fader would do, so it should definitely work like that.

This also necessitates the automatic conversion of envelopes on all existing projects. Just a matter of display, I presume.

[geoffroy]

Hope it will be implemented before 4.0 release!!

I would be curious to see how the volume curve would look like with the new taper fader setting !

[EvilDragon]

It won't be implemented before initial v4 release, unfortunately. schwa said no big features are going to be added in the beta cycle - and this is not a feature per se, but it's a big undertaking in reworking how envelopes are displayed.

[Mercado_Negro]

What if?



That'd pretty much solve the problem with any envelope since you'd just have to click and scroll up/down to see a lower/higher part of the envelope for editing purposes.

Open the envelope for the first time (no automation yet, at 0) and we'd have a range from +6.0dB to -6.0dB: scroll up down if you want to see higher/lower values.

Open an envelope with values above +6.0dB or below -6.0dB and REAPER scrolls automatically to the values (zone) with more points.

[nofish]

Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro

What if?



That'd pretty much solve the problem with any envelope since you'd just have to click and scroll up/down to see a lower/higher part of the envelope for editing purposes.

This wouldn't change the actual envelope scaling of course which apperently some are also not happy with, but since there's now already going a discussion about this here, until this comes to a conclusion, I think your suggestion is a great immediate visual improvement which could help envelope editing a lot.

so +1

[Mercado_Negro]

Originally Posted by nofish

This wouldn't change the actual envelope scaling of course which apperently some are also not happy with, but since there's now already going a discussion about this here, until this comes to a conclusion, I think your suggestion is a great immediate visual improvement which could help envelope editing a lot.

so +1

Yeah, the scaling still needs to be sorted out though in that case, if that idea I posted above is implemented, we'd just need a linear envelope we could scroll through (unless I'm missing something here). You know, like fixed (1dB or absolute value?) steps.

[airon]

There's a request for this kind of stuff already.

To reiterate a somewhat painful observation, Reapers volume envelope display has the worst scale of any DAW I've used so far.

For all the smart editing tools it has for envelopes, the scale of the volume envelope is so bad, it diminishes their effectiveness to such a degree, that I try to avoid using them at all costs. It's simply a design choice that turned out to be bad for the users.

And I call it bad, because everyone else does this bit well. Cockos may want to bold that item on their to-do list.

Now back to our regularly scheduled happiness.

[Mercado_Negro]

You make it sound like some useless crap noone can work with, which is, of course, false

Logarithmic, linear, etc., these are all good suggestions and make sense but the problem is "we can't edit envelopes properly below -20dB". No scale will solve that, and that's what your request is about.

[airon]

Just experience.

Reaper's just at the bottom end with this scale display.

[EvilDragon]

Airon is right. Envelope scale is one of the worst parts of Reaper.

[gofer]

I suspect a related issue is Reaper's zero line glitch that comes up on some envelopes which for some reason are problematic to display for Reaper. I never saw something similar in any other app's envelope curves. Must be something very difficult to solve within the current way to handle envelopes, as the issue is labeled "Live with it" in the tracker (too lazy to search for it now).

Here are some examples of envelopes that do that weird kink at "zero line crossings" (the bottom-most one being the blueprint of how a "sane" envelope looks like with the same point values/times/shapes):


Would be a huge relief to have volume envelopes that are better editable in the lower regions. If the solution to that one is a deep enough change to also solve the "zero line kink" in those problem parameters, it would be worth quite a lot of developing time and hassle, IMO.

[jm duchenne]

Of course, I know Cockos plans to work on this issue of the scale of volume, but it would be nice to have an idea of ​​when ...
Year after year, demand after demand, reminder after reminder, this is still the main problem to work in Reaper.
The ReaEQ scale problem has been solved by a simple linear/log switch : could you at least do it for the volume while waiting for something more sophisticated ?
Please do not forget ...

[timlloyd]

Yes please - this drives me up and down the wall :-/

[geoffroy]

yep!! very difficult to work at low fader levels.

[jm duchenne]

Could I dare, five years after the first request, ask for a little attention ?

Yes, I know that it is on the To Do List, but day after day, this problems continues to make editing a real pain...