Old 01-11-2020, 10:26 AM   #1
zoikkis
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Default U-he plugins show wrong PDC in Reaper

In Reaper, all the U-he instruments and effects seems to report the amount of PDC that you have set your audio card's buffer to. So for example, if I set ASIO driver's Block Size to 128, this is the PDC amount for all U-he plugins that is reported. If I rise the Block Size to 256, they report 256 PDC and so on... This makes it pretty difficult to work with u-he plugins in Reaper.

Other DAWs I've tried (Reason, Renoise) report it correctly. In reaper it doesn't make any difference if I go to U-he plugin settings and set the Base Latency between "off" or "16 samples". In other DAWs it's reported correctly: PDC=0 or PDC=16, depending on the settings.
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Old 01-11-2020, 11:02 AM   #2
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No such problems here (Tyrell N6).
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Old 01-11-2020, 11:08 AM   #3
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There are two numbers displayed, first one is actual reported latency by the plugin, second one is how much PDC Reaper applies afaik. If you're referring to the second one:

from Justin:
Quote:
REAPER's PDC mechanism forces each PDC'd plugin to compensate by 1 full audio block..
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....239#post324239

So I guess it can be said it's 'by design'...
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Old 01-11-2020, 11:28 AM   #4
zoikkis
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I've now tried with PC and MAC and they both have the same problem using U-he plugins. Tried with several soundcards and drivers. Internal and external.

I can only see one value in performance meter under PDC.

For example: I create two tracks, one with U-he synth and another with some other manufacturer's synth and set the Base Latency to very high, say 2048. Then I arm both tracks and play a simple saw wave coming from both plugins. Attack for the Amp Envelope set to zero. The sound from U-he plugin clearly plays out much later than from the other synth.

Also reported this into U-he forum

Last edited by zoikkis; 01-11-2020 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 01-11-2020, 11:40 AM   #5
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It's not a problem, it's how Reaper's PDC is designed.

You can disable this latency in Preferences panel of u-he plugins.
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Old 01-11-2020, 12:15 PM   #6
zoikkis
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Thanks for the answers and help!

Like I mentioned in the first post, it doesn't have any effect if I change this setting in U-he plugin preferences between 16 and 0 samples. PDC is determined in this case by the soundcard's buffer size. So if I set the buffer to 2048 samples and then add four U-he effects in a row for the same track, the latency would already be 8192 samples. So when playing from the MIDI keyboard there is a huge difference when the sound comes out between U-he and other synths. But at least the latency is compensated correctly between the synths when playing back recorded Midi.

I noticed another thing that happens with latency when using Renoise Redux plugin inside Reaper. If I add Redux to a track and play some sounds using its dedicated keyboard input, there is a lot of latency. But it only happens when the track isn't armed. When the track is armed, the latency disappears and plays back as it should, related to the audio buffer settings.
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Old 01-11-2020, 01:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoikkis View Post
Like I mentioned in the first post, it doesn't have any effect if I change this setting in U-he plugin preferences between 16 and 0 samples.
Sure it does, it works over here. However you need to run transport first for PDC values to refresh. It's not an instantaneous refresh. Proof:

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Old 01-11-2020, 03:00 PM   #8
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I added two images. The first one shows four U-he plugins set with zero latency. The second one shows all those set with 16 samples latency. Soundcard buffer is set to 512 samples.

So the first number reflects this correctly but the second number goes pretty crazy and this latency can be felt when played with Midi keyboard. In your example also the second number is zero but not for me. I wonder what's going on in my case... I ran the transport once in a while to get it refreshed

Anyway, I also read that other thread so maybe this is how it's supposed to be...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Reaper_1.jpg (16.3 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg Reaper_2.jpg (17.2 KB, 17 views)
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Old 01-11-2020, 03:33 PM   #9
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Satin is the exception in there. That one always has a bit of latency added (6 samples) even when you disable 16 spls latency in its Preferences. There's something in its algorithms that absolutely requires at least this small latency.

The takeaway from this is: don't use huge buffer sizes if your CPU can handle working at i.e. 128 samples.
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Old 01-11-2020, 03:50 PM   #10
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I normally use 128, 64 or even 32 (Presonus ASIO drivers) depending on how heavy load there is and now that I have set up all U-he plugins to zero latency, it will work fine.

Thanks so much for the help and explanation ED!
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Old 01-11-2020, 11:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
It's not a problem, it's how Reaper's PDC is designed.
I doubt that any DAW can do it otherwise (regarding the audio output). An Audio stream is handled in chunks of full buffers, and if you need a negative delay, it needs to be compensated somewhere else by adding at least a full buffer. (It's a know problem that Reaper does not work perfectly efficient when it comes to compensating the delay of multiple VSTs in a row.)
-Michael
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Old 01-12-2020, 12:30 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
I doubt that any DAW can do it otherwise
Actually every DAW besides Reaper that I know does do it otherwise.
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Old 01-12-2020, 03:37 AM   #13
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I do suppose the just show these numbers, but the audio processing does not follow. Of course regarding "latency" while playback, you need to define the points in the process where to measure that latency.
-Michael
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Old 01-12-2020, 04:52 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
Actually every DAW besides Reaper that I know does do it otherwise.
Yup. In every DAW, if you play live through a VSTi chain with 16 samples of latency, that's how much latency is added. Only in Reaper will a plugin or VSTi with a few samples of latency add an entire buffers worth of latency.

This is important not only for live latency when playing. Once you're mixing and running lots of heavy plugin chains the overall PDC gets MUCH higher than it would be in other DAW's (due to the full buffer per plugin) this means Reaper gets much laggier and less responsive on big mixes than other DAW's, all because of this same issue!

I'd love it if we had an option to disable the full buffer per plugin and just use the ACTUAL amount of latency the plugin produces. There was another long thread about this in which Justin weighed in and acknowledged there could be some advantages to processing plugin PDC the traditional way, and maybe he would look at an option for changing it.

I sincerely hope that this happens.
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Old 01-12-2020, 05:13 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Yup. In every DAW, if you play live through a VSTi chain with 16 samples of latency, that's how much latency is added. Only in Reaper will a plugin or VSTi with a few samples of latency add an entire buffers worth of latency.
How exactly do you measure that latency ? Between which two events ?

In fact when live playing with Reaper in most cases it's best to switch off PDC anyway. In that case for the VST in question you get a latency of 16 samples (as you describe) while for other tracks you'll get no latency.

Do you suggest that when live playing with "Other DAWs", the latency of the VST in question is 16 sample (as With Reaper / PDC switched off) and for the other tracks it's 16 samples, as well ? This might or might not be advantageous. I am not in a position to do such a measurement.

(The other long and very interesting thread was about stacking multiple VSTs each with non-zero PDC, resulting in multiple buffer times of latency, which is a slightly different issue - and definitively a shortcoming in Reaper.)

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 01-12-2020 at 05:21 AM.
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Old 01-13-2020, 03:30 AM   #16
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there are also annoying stuck notes issue with most UHE plugins : tyrell N6, Diva, Zebra 2 (OSX).
Why have Cockos developers not yet solved this ?
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Old 01-13-2020, 08:43 AM   #17
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I don't get any stuck notes with any u-he plugins over here. Care to post a minimal project that reproduces the issue?
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Old 01-13-2020, 08:53 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
I don't get any stuck notes with any u-he plugins over here. Care to post a minimal project that reproduces the issue?
Hello ED, No need to post a minimal project because the issue happens even with an empty project with only one track with one UHE plugin.

I tried with 3 different audio interfaces, ESI, Presonus and scarlett.
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Old 01-14-2020, 12:52 AM   #19
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It doesn't happen over here at all. Still, post the project and tell where it's supposed to have stuck notes.

It might be a matter of certain Reaper options needing a change, I don't think audio interfaces or their drivers have anything to do with it.
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Old 01-14-2020, 03:16 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
It doesn't happen over here at all. Still, post the project and tell where it's supposed to have stuck notes.

It might be a matter of certain Reaper options needing a change, I don't think audio interfaces or their drivers have anything to do with it.
Stuck notes happens at random when I tweak plugin parameters when Reaper is playing in loop mode (for example a 3 bars loop).
I'll post a project when I'll be in my studio.

This issue happens also with some other plugins but less frequently.
There must be something different with UHE.
Note : no stuck notes with UHE in Studio one, Logic, Ableton ...
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Old 01-14-2020, 03:30 AM   #21
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Yeah I've been looping a 2 bar bassline for 15 minutes now and tweaking the bejeezus of the patch, no hung notes...

How is your Preferences->Audio->Playback page set up?
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Old 01-14-2020, 04:08 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Yeah I've been looping a 2 bar bassline for 15 minutes now and tweaking the bejeezus of the patch, no hung notes...

How is your Preferences->Audio->Playback page set up?
Like this

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_L...ALuNg3Bv2hS7H9

Project

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KF...xZAYuT8rLXlMrO
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Old 01-14-2020, 04:42 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Yup. In every DAW, if you play live through a VSTi chain with 16 samples of latency, that's how much latency is added. Only in Reaper will a plugin or VSTi with a few samples of latency add an entire buffers worth of latency.

This is important not only for live latency when playing. Once you're mixing and running lots of heavy plugin chains the overall PDC gets MUCH higher than it would be in other DAW's (due to the full buffer per plugin) this means Reaper gets much laggier and less responsive on big mixes than other DAW's, all because of this same issue!

I'd love it if we had an option to disable the full buffer per plugin and just use the ACTUAL amount of latency the plugin produces. There was another long thread about this in which Justin weighed in and acknowledged there could be some advantages to processing plugin PDC the traditional way, and maybe he would look at an option for changing it.

I sincerely hope that this happens.
I really don't understand how this hasn't been addressed yet. The difference is insane and it should be a top priority to fix this in my opinion.
All this talk of Reaper as one of the lightest and most CPU efficient daws goes down the drain when you have to set your buffer size below 256 just to have a comparable latency with 2-3 active plugins (which is still greater than the combined latency of inserted plugins), and which consequently heavily increases the strain on your CPU.
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:34 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dupont View Post
OK the only differences I can see with mine is that I have "Stop playback at end of loop if looping is disabled" enabled (which shouldn't matter here), and also I have "Flush FX on stop" disabled, and "Send MIDI note-offs when un-record-arming a track" enabled.
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:34 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
when you have to set your buffer size below 256 just to have a comparable latency with 2-3 active plugins (which is still greater than the combined latency of inserted plugins), and which consequently heavily increases the strain on your CPU.
This is the said "stacked plugins" issue handled in the other thread, not the one initially handled here.

-Michael
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Old 01-22-2020, 12:27 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
OK the only differences I can see with mine is that I have "Stop playback at end of loop if looping is disabled" enabled (which shouldn't matter here), and also I have "Flush FX on stop" disabled, and "Send MIDI note-offs when un-record-arming a track" enabled.
I tried your settings but still get stuck notes.
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Old 01-22-2020, 01:22 PM   #27
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Not sure then. They just aren't happening at all over here, and I use u-he stuff a lot, I beta test for them.
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Old 01-23-2020, 06:07 AM   #28
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Zebra gets stuck here too occasionally. Don't know the conditions yet as it's rare enough.
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