Your favorite virtual instruments ?

[viscofisy]

Originally Posted by noise_construct

A "guitarist" can go on stage, put on a CD and play airguitar, music is prerecorded anyway. Does this possibility make all guitars "bad"? That's how your "logic" appears.

No, the logic is this :

A guy who doesn't necessarily play guitar standing on stage triggering a VSTi GUITAR.

It's playing "amazing stuff" that even virtuoso guitarists can't hope to play on a guitar.

He did it all in his bedroom weeks before the "live" gig.

[karbomusic]

Only in a forum lol... do people seem to endlessly argue on how to create something interesting. Really doesn't matter if it is a guitar, an automated synth or a recording of someone taking a shit (props to Mike Patton/Mr. Bungle for the latter). I know many guitarists who can play great but can't come up with anything original or interesting to save their lives, I know people with a drive full of VSTs with the exact same problem.

I see all of them as ways to produce sound that are useless unless I hear it in my head first or find it via experimentation using that same head.

[silar]

Not to continue on with the sidetrack, but...

I remember years ago when Metallica's Master of Puppets came out and there were some of my friends that were saying "Listen to that part! There's only 2 guitarists but there are at least 6 electric guitars playing!! They shouldn't ever have more than 2 guitars, 1 bass, and drums playing at any given time! They should only play on the album what they can play live!"

All I can remember thinking was.. It's just music. However you want to make your music is up to you. If you or others enjoy it, it doesn't matter how it's made. All that matters is that you like what you make, and if others like it, then that's an added bonus!

[viscofisy]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Only in a forum lol... do people seem to endlessly argue on how to create something interesting. Really doesn't matter if it is a guitar, an automated synth or a recording of someone taking a shit (props to Mike Patton/Mr. Bungle for the latter). I know many guitarists who can play great but can't come up with anything original or interesting to save their lives, I know people with a drive full of VSTs with the exact same problem.

I see all of them as ways to produce sound that are useless unless I hear it in my head first or find it via experimentation using that same head.

I think it's foolish to gloss over a very pertinant point.

The point is that the massive trend towards automating synths makes them unplayable live.

Yeah, great stuff is written on softsynths in studio midi editors.

Great experience to listen to, and I'm not denying that.

However, there is a thing called "playing live".
__

My assertion was that, often, synth players have so much automation and arps that there is almost no distinction between "playing it live" and sticking on a cd onstage and pressing the odd note on an instrument.
_

That wouldn't have been tolerated by, say, Jimi Hendrix fans.
__

So obviously there's a big problem here between people's workflow and the very notion of playing live.
_

Again, I'm not saying what must happen.

I'm making observations on what is happening, whether we (musicians) like it or not.

I can't put the genie back in the bottle.

I use Ableton Live, I loop stuff, I try to juggle it while playing actual instruments ... in a live gig setting.

So I'm not dismissing anything out of hand.

But I can't pretend I don't feel an uneasiness about the whole shebang.
_

Some people deride folk music - and often rightly so - but I can (and do) walk into the smoking area of a pub and play a tune on an actual instrument, or sing a song and play guitar.

Doing that, and connecting with people (and getting free drinks all night and a good blether) is a fair distance from me turning up at a "gig" and pressing a button or two......which I don't, but that's the trend.

I trigger VSTi drums and synths, play guitar/fiddle/banjo, make "live" loops, sing, warp it with Camel Space and Ableton Resonators.

Still, I feel there's something missing.....and I'm actially playing the stuff, not just pressing buttons.

The next guy along from me might be just pressing buttons - the gap is becoming indistinguishable.

Isn't the logical conclusion to just stick a CD on, and come back 2hours later when everyone is finished listening to my "live" music?
_

Or better still, tell the pub to download my songs and play a live gig without my having to bother driving there?

[noise_construct]

Originally Posted by viscofisy

No, the logic is this :

A guy who doesn't necessarily play guitar standing on stage triggering a VSTi GUITAR.

It's playing "amazing stuff" that even virtuoso guitarists can't hope to play on a guitar.

He did it all in his bedroom weeks before the "live" gig.

And? Does this tangent have a point?

[Softsynth]

Originally Posted by viscofisy

Isn't the logical conclusion to just stick a CD on, and come back 2hours later when everyone is finished listening to my "live" music?
_

Or better still, tell the pub to download my songs and play a live gig without my having to bother driving there?

"CD" "download" NO!
You are way behind the times. Here is an edited version of your comment for a modern audience:

The logical conclusion is to enable your stream remotely, and drink cheap supermarket beer at home for 2 hours, while anyone that still actually goes to the pub listens to your "live" music!

Thus helping to simultaneously kill two industries in one fell swoop!

[viscofisy]

Originally Posted by noise_construct

And? Does this tangent have a point?

?

I've already gone over "the point" more than once.

There's a huge trend towards automation.

That's fine if you're recording music that's only intended to be played from a file.

"Playing" that stuff live stretches the definition of "playing live" to breaking point.
_

I'm only observing what's happening.
_

Recorded music is a pretty recent phenomenon, in the bigger scale of things.

People now find it increasingly difficult to exist on earnings from recorded music.

But recorded/automated music is eating up actual live playing, and no wonder.

It's cheaper and easier to press a button on a file player (that's in effect what is possible via midi synths).
_

Yeah, it's attractive on the one hand, but negative on the other.
_

I can't imagine any new soft synth selling that wasn't automatable and actually had to be played.

Again, I'm not some kind of Luddite, I use VSTis and midi automation.

I'm just pointing out where things are obviously headed.....at least for a sizeable proportion of people who like to call themselves musicians.
_

[noise_construct]

You still can't seem to able to form a coherent argument. Are you implying that soft synths are evil, because they have parameters which can be controlled by MIDI? Wouldn't it be more rational to blame the DAWs, since synths have always had parameters since the birth of first Moog.

And what comes to "playing live", I think most people regard symphonies pretty OK music even if the composer could never play it live.

Anyway, live performance isn't the primary way to enjoy many styles of music, and a lot of this music involves synths, so I see absolutely no problem with synths being automated. I record the automation "live" fwiw.

[Softsynth]

Originally Posted by viscofisy

?

I'm just pointing out where things are obviously headed.....at least for a sizeable proportion of people who like to call themselves musicians.
_

Do you think the amount of traditional musicians is going down?
Maybe it is just the ratio that has changed. Guitar sales figures are huge.

Far more people now making music as a hobby than ever before, putting their efforts on the net, because they can.

Electronic musicians have been partly faking it live for several decades now.

As long as there are teenagers that feel empowered "cool" by playing real instruments. there's little to worry about.

Not so long ago in the grand scheme:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/5281620.stm

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by viscofisy

I think it's foolish to gloss over a very pertinant point.

Foolish to what end? What's the damage and horrible tangible side-effect of ignoring such musical pedantry? Do live performing musicians (which I happen to be one of) have some exclusive birthright when it comes to entertaining people with music? No, they don't. I certainly enjoy performing live and there is a special place in my heart that appreciates that skill of 'wiring of the soul directly to the instrument' in real time; but that is really irrelevant to those enjoying whatever is being presented to them unless that is specifically what they are expecting to see. The massive crowds attending shows where automation is prevalent seems to show that isn't the case for those audiences.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Softsynth

Do you think the amount of traditional musicians is going down?
Maybe it is just the ratio that has changed. Guitar sales figures are huge.
]

I played rock-n-roll guitar live for 2 hours non-stop Friday night, there is no machine on the planet than can do what I did, making instant musical decisions on the fly with millisecond accuracy especially with 30% of what I do being improvised on the spot - at the same were a few segues and intros automated by a sequencer on the floor by the drummer and some automation from the keyboard player that no human could ever replicate in real time. I have a vast respect for creating music in real time via direct human interaction but it isn't the only way to create live music.

[viscofisy]

Originally Posted by noise_construct

You still can't seem to able to form a coherent argument. Are you implying that soft synths are evil, because they have parameters which can be controlled by MIDI? Wouldn't it be more rational to blame the DAWs, since synths have always had parameters since the birth of first Moog.

Perhaps that's because you seem to crave a binary choice.

Did I say I used software and some automation live?

Yeah, I did, so how you reduce that to "synths are evil" says more about your own coherence.

I repeatedly said I'm observing what's happening, and suggested that I'm even part of the dynamic towards non-musicianship.....even though I play a few instruments.

Is it not possible for you to hold these things in your mind and observe a trend?

And what comes to "playing live", I think most people regard symphonies pretty OK music even if the composer could never play it live.

Yet orchestras do/did play them live. many thousands of musicians were employed.
Today the Bedroom Beethovens make orchestral melodrama in pale imitation of the real thing, and the effect is that real musicians are increasingly outbid for paying jobs by Tony and his Kontakt library.

Anyway, live performance isn't the primary way to enjoy many styles of music, and a lot of this music involves synths, so I see absolutely no problem with synths being automated. I record the automation "live" fwiw.

I already said that live isn't the only option.
But the prevalance of automated VSTis surely has a big impact, firstly on recording sales, secondly on "live" musicianship.
I used to know tens of musicians who would have PAs in their hallways and spare rooms, all of them performing live and often lending bits and pieces to each other. Now I know of two......and one of them is me.

Again, for the record, I'm only observing what's happening. I'm not stamping my feet and demanding change.

Just sayin'.

[viscofisy]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Foolish to what end? What's the damage and horrible tangible side-effect of ignoring such musical pedantry? Do live performing musicians (which I happen to be one of) have some exclusive birthright when it comes to entertaining people with music? No, they don't. I certainly enjoy performing live and there is a special place in my heart that appreciates that skill of 'wiring of the soul directly to the instrument' in real time; but that is really irrelevant to those enjoying whatever is being presented to them unless that is specifically what they are expecting to see. The massive crowds attending shows where automation is prevalent seems to show that isn't the case for those audiences.

See above.

One minute you're saying that your live guitar playing has worth - why wouldn't triggering VSTis or soundfiles have exactly the same worth?

What about the guy who looks like he's playing a synth live on stage? (but programmed it in his bedroom with a mouse).

Is that really "just as valid" as you playing your guitar live?

Once again - I'm observing a trend.

I'm not stamping my feet and saying "stop this now!"

Is it not possible for us to make observations on what is actually happening without being accused of being precious or deluded?

[Goldreap]

99% of both guitarists and synthists are crap anyway!!!!

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by viscofisy

See above.

One minute you're saying that your live guitar playing has worth - why wouldn't triggering VSTis or soundfiles have exactly the same worth?

I'm saying exactly that if there is a crowd happily paying to see either. 'Worth' in this regard should be to the audience - our own worth is satisfied by picking the one we personally find the most worthwhile for us individually as musicians which makes this debate as I said earlier, typically only fertile in forums etc., everyone else is just doing the one they enjoy the most.

[viscofisy]

Well sometimes the audience doesn't have much choice, and musicians have to compete in a closed circuit with button pushers. Again, only an observation.

But crowds do notice.

Back in the late 90s when I first gigged in Denmark quite a few people said "thank god you're not pretending to play folk music while using backing stuff and drum machines".

That's who we were competing with.....and I personally knew two UK musicians "gigging" there who had their wives program their keyboards, and just pressed PLAY.

Some of these towns the customers haven't much choice but to put up with whatever turns up, or stay at home.

So yeah, crowds do notice.

Maybe worse than that is a slow rot.

I know 20 and 30 year olds who don't listen to music.

I generally show an interest in what their entertainment is, and ask them.

At first I was a bit put out that they avoided music - but it's completely understandable. They're voting with their feet. One of the 30 yr olds I know well - he's a talented drummer and persussionist who no longer plays.
He said lots of his pals don't listen to much music either, because so much of it is crappy.

So I think there's a rot quietly setting in, and again, I'm observing it.....but not without some sadness.

[Softsynth]

Originally Posted by viscofisy

Yet orchestras do/did play them live. many thousands of musicians were employed.
Today the Bedroom Beethovens make orchestral melodrama in pale imitation of the real thing, and the effect is that real musicians are increasingly outbid for paying jobs by Tony and his Kontakt library.

Okay, who's this Tony?

I believe you have observed a trend and (perhaps understandably) partly come to the wrong conclusions.
Where is the budget for full orchestras for the majority of programmes?

For the most part Kontakt "Tony" isn't replacing real Orchestras, he is just a logical progression of Synth Dave, or replacing synth Dave and his band.

Very few TV programmes in the 1980s, 90s and most of noughties had Orchestral scores, they had (often cheesy) synth scores. Or small bands and synth scores.
Given the sophistication of orchestral libraries it is no wonder that those are now used for no budget and low budget productions.

Top tier programmes are now using real orchestral scores, maybe more than ever before. Especially as a lot of the big money has moved from Cinema to TV. Plenty of big movies use real Orchestral scores too.
There was a period in the 70s and the 80s (especially in Sci-Fi movies) when soundtracks were mainly synth tracks. Star Wars started the move back towards orchestral, when budget allowed.

[Softsynth]

Originally Posted by viscofisy

Maybe worse than that is a slow rot.

I know 20 and 30 year olds who don't listen to music.

I generally show an interest in what their entertainment is, and ask them.

At first I was a bit put out that they avoided music - but it's completely understandable. They're voting with their feet. One of the 30 yr olds I know well - he's a talented drummer and persussionist who no longer plays.
He said lots of his pals don't listen to much music either, because so much of it is crappy.

So I think there's a rot quietly setting in, and again, I'm observing it.....but not without some sadness.

So all the old stuff is crap too?

As a teenager I mostly listened to old music, not just current chart material, that's not the whole story by any means. Whatever happened to the music by the dead men too? Has classical music suddenly become crap, past its sell by date?

Those teenagers are too busy playing the latest immersive 3d video games and chatting on social media. They don't have record stores, they are happy stealing music off the internet (listening to it on their phones, because they double as their audio system) or streaming it free.

They do not have the time (away from social media and games -where they are bombarded with music of sorts anyway), the ownership experience that goes with accumulating the physical media or the dedicated playback systems that used to be required for it. They don't even have to pay for the music. Respect is going with the record collection.

Last (and probably least) TV Talent programmes play their part too perhaps. These programmes present us with warbling wannabes, all talent and no taste. Plastic pop.

[noise_construct]

Originally Posted by viscofisy

Well sometimes the audience doesn't have much choice, and musicians have to compete in a closed circuit with button pushers. Again, only an observation.

But crowds do notice.

Back in the late 90s when I first gigged in Denmark quite a few people said "thank god you're not pretending to play folk music while using backing stuff and drum machines".

That's who we were competing with.....and I personally knew two UK musicians "gigging" there who had their wives program their keyboards, and just pressed PLAY.

Some of these towns the customers haven't much choice but to put up with whatever turns up, or stay at home.

So yeah, crowds do notice.

Maybe worse than that is a slow rot.

I know 20 and 30 year olds who don't listen to music.

I generally show an interest in what their entertainment is, and ask them.

At first I was a bit put out that they avoided music - but it's completely understandable. They're voting with their feet. One of the 30 yr olds I know well - he's a talented drummer and persussionist who no longer plays.
He said lots of his pals don't listen to much music either, because so much of it is crappy.

So I think there's a rot quietly setting in, and again, I'm observing it.....but not without some sadness.

Ok, I get it now. Your perspective is simply so incredibly narrow and local that your absurd "observation" possibly makes at least some sense inside that.

In the real world, however, there's more music made and played than ever before in the history of the mankind. Perhaps bone flutes and lutes aren't as popular as they used to, but that hardly means "musicianship" has died.

[Softsynth]

Originally Posted by noise_construct

Ok, I get it now. Your perspective is simply so incredibly narrow and local that your absurd "observation" possibly makes at least some sense inside that.

In the real world, however, there's more music made and played than ever before in the history of the mankind. Perhaps bone flutes and lutes aren't as popular as they used to, but that hardly means "musicianship" has died.

There is always change. Before the advent of Radio many homes had pianos. So a musician (of sorts) was in many homes.
Home computers have brought music production and performance back into the home.

[viscofisy]

Originally Posted by noise_construct

Ok, I get it now. Your perspective is simply so incredibly narrow and local that your absurd "observation" possibly makes at least some sense inside that.

You can spout words like absurd and narrow all you like.

I'm talking as someone who made a living completely from music, in five different countries.

As I said, I'm making observations. There probably are many thousands more of home "musicians" than ever before. I hear their stuff all the time. The bar for "making music" has certainly come down to include people who would not before have been considered as talented enough to record, and whether them adding to the glut of online offerings is a good or a bad thing is a matter of opinion.

Anyone who imagines that music is in a healthy state overall is deluding themselves.

The bewildering array of recording options and software, and ease of churning out copycat versions of all styles is certainly part of the overall equation.

_

Can't play? - no problem, here's a midi chart. Fire in.

Can't sing? - no prob, we have autotune.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by viscofisy

Well sometimes the audience doesn't have much choice, and musicians have to compete in a closed circuit with button pushers. Again, only an observation.

The observation is fine. Note my first reply didn't quote anyone or take a side - The purpose of that post was to express there should be no 'side'.

This automation thing exists in a swath of certain genres but I see some inference as if it is across all genres which it obviously is not. That being the case, I'm having a hard time swallowing that people are going to shows or having to stay home because automation is taking over the world. Of course I give a certain personal precedence to those who can create music in real time just like I do a person who skis well down an actual mountain vs someone who skis well in a video game. I'm proud of the fact that I took 30 years of my life to be able to pull that off musically but I'm not saddened because someone else does something entirely differently.

We have to remember that back in the 'good ole days' there were also several less billion people on this planet vs. now, there's room for everyone. Either way, I'd never feel threatened since clubs pay whomever draws the crowd and if I can't draw the crowd, it isn't the fault of automation - it's business.

[karbomusic]

Oh yea... Some of my favorite VSTs are just to name a few...

Massive
Reaktor (Prism, Razor, Scanner XT, Metaphysical Function et al).
Kontact (The Giant, Evolve, Damage)
Addictive Drums
The Robert Krzywicki suite
Superwave
Oatmeal
Synth1
GTG synths
Blooo
FLP3

And I like long walks on the beach.

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by Goldreap

99% of both guitarists and synthists are crap anyway!!!!

Did someone call?

Off in another direction...

Why is the typical virtual instrument not designed for performance? Most of them have so many parameters, or such disparate interfaces from one another that it isn't practical to map them to a controller. In recording, is the idea not to capture the perfomance and the sound? So what good is dozens of parameters that can't be 'performed' realtime?

And this is in addition to other discussions within this thread, one being the sorry state of controllers, on the aspect of expressiveness, i.e., wonky velocity and latency, requiring that performances be quantized and smoothed over. The other being the sound of virtual instruments and effects not hitting the marks of their analog counterparts.

I'm more of a 90's kid than anything, and there is so much recorded music from back then, as well as from previous decades, that has much more character in the songs, performances, and sound than anything I am hearing today. Pop 'artists' today sound like formulated productions (because they are!), and bands are putting out too many songs that sound half-baked, often with uninspiring performances and sound that is lacking character, which likely has alot to do with the recording 'revolution'. I would say that somewhere in the early 2000's, art in music got badly kicked in the teeth, and it still hasn't recovered. Sure, some of the artists/bands from previous decades are still kicking, but I probably couldn't count how many younger bands are putting out recordings that sound like they are based on loops and about as interesting.

Back to virtual instruments...

Which instruments are you finding work well for realtime performance (you know...as instruments)?

[MikComposer]

Originally Posted by brainwreck

Did someone call?

Off in another direction...

Why is the typical virtual instrument not designed for performance? Most of them have so many parameters, or such disparate interfaces from one another that it isn't practical to map them to a controller. In recording, is the idea not to capture the perfomance and the sound? So what good is dozens of parameters that can't be 'performed' realtime?

And this is in addition to other discussions within this thread, one being the sorry state of controllers, on the aspect of expressiveness, i.e., wonky velocity and latency, requiring that performances be quantized and smoothed over. The other being the sound of virtual instruments and effects not hitting the marks of their analog counterparts.

I'm more of a 90's kid than anything, and there is so much recorded music from back then, as well as from previous decades, that has much more character in the songs, performances, and sound than anything I am hearing today. Pop 'artists' today sound like formulated productions (because they are!), and bands are putting out too many songs that sound half-baked, often with uninspiring performances and sound that is lacking character, which likely has alot to do with the recording 'revolution'. I would say that somewhere in the early 2000's, art in music got badly kicked in the teeth, and it still hasn't recovered. Sure, some of the artists/bands from previous decades are still kicking, but I probably couldn't count how many younger bands are putting out recordings that sound like they are based on loops and about as interesting.

Back to virtual instruments...

Which instruments are you finding work well for realtime performance (you know...as instruments)?

I do agree, thought Vangelis would rather probably disagreed

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by MikComposer

I do agree, thought Vangelis would rather probably disagreed

I think Vangelis would agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2PMvdfOIIU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuaBXUDQvB8

[viscofisy]

Originally Posted by brainwreck

Did someone call?

Off in another direction...

Why is the typical virtual instrument not designed for performance? Most of them have so many parameters, or such disparate interfaces from one another that it isn't practical to map them to a controller. In recording, is the idea not to capture the perfomance and the sound? So what good is dozens of parameters that can't be 'performed' realtime?

And this is in addition to other discussions within this thread, one being the sorry state of controllers, on the aspect of expressiveness, i.e., wonky velocity and latency, requiring that performances be quantized and smoothed over. The other being the sound of virtual instruments and effects not hitting the marks of their analog counterparts.

I'm more of a 90's kid than anything, and there is so much recorded music from back then, as well as from previous decades, that has much more character in the songs, performances, and sound than anything I am hearing today. Pop 'artists' today sound like formulated productions (because they are!), and bands are putting out too many songs that sound half-baked, often with uninspiring performances and sound that is lacking character, which likely has alot to do with the recording 'revolution'. I would say that somewhere in the early 2000's, art in music got badly kicked in the teeth, and it still hasn't recovered. Sure, some of the artists/bands from previous decades are still kicking, but I probably couldn't count how many younger bands are putting out recordings that sound like they are based on loops and about as interesting.

Back to virtual instruments...

Which instruments are you finding work well for realtime performance (you know...as instruments)?

Pretty much nails it, bw.

[noise_construct]

Originally Posted by viscofisy

You can spout words like absurd and narrow all you like.

I'm talking as someone who made a living completely from music, in five different countries.

I'm not "spouting words", I'm describing your ramblings as they are, opinionated misconceptions of a layman with an untypically narrow grasp of the situation even for a self proclaimed "musician". And stating "making a living off music" doesn't magically turn irrational opinions valid or relevant. Quite contrary, resorting to reference to false authority just proves that you acknowledge your argument as invalid.

As I said, I'm making observations. There probably are many thousands more of home "musicians" than ever before. I hear their stuff all the time. The bar for "making music" has certainly come down to include people who would not before have been considered as talented enough to record, and whether them adding to the glut of online offerings is a good or a bad thing is a matter of opinion.

Anyone who imagines that music is in a healthy state overall is deluding themselves.

The bewildering array of recording options and software, and ease of churning out copycat versions of all styles is certainly part of the overall equation.

Easier access to composing, producing and publishing music obviously has several effects, and yes, one of them is that even more people who are only in it for money can do it. However, this garbage side has always existed, and it really means nothing. If somebody wants to listen to Bieber from her iphone speaker rather some whiny wannabe-dylan in the corner of a bar, it's their business, nothing of value is lost or gained. It's just popular culture, subject of ever-changing fads and whims of consumers. If music is just another means of competing for fame and dime for you, then the audience is your king.

If you have observed that "MIDI arpeggios from magical one-note synths" sell better, then maybe revisit your business model?

The bright side of this technological development is that it also enables people to do exactly the kind of music they want without worrying about commercial success. This is how art and culture evolves. The iron claw of record company execs didn't result in overall advances of music as art form, it produced music that sells, entertains or drives other product sales. And this actually means something- new music is free to emerge. You can make an album without having silicon boobs or a group of four other drug addicts. You don't compete with anyone. You only pursue your artistic vision.

Can't play? - no problem, here's a midi chart. Fire in.

Can't sing? - no prob, we have autotune.

Can't form a rational argument? No problem, stick to opinions.
Can't type? No problem, use auto-correct.

See how internet has also given laymen without higher education or studies in philosophy a channel where they can participate in discussions ;-)

[noise_construct]

Originally Posted by brainwreck

Did someone call?

Off in another direction...

Why is the typical virtual instrument not designed for performance? Most of them have so many parameters, or such disparate interfaces from one another that it isn't practical to map them to a controller. In recording, is the idea not to capture the perfomance and the sound? So what good is dozens of parameters that can't be 'performed' realtime?

They are designed for performance. Does it take technical skill and effort, yes. This is just like grabbing a cello for the first time and asking "why isn't this designed to output notes that are in tune".

Do you think that having all the extra parameters means that it's less designed for performance? You obviously have all the same parameters as on a simpler instrument, but more control on top of that, making it much more responsive in performance.

And why would all parameters need to be controlled manually in real time, most of them are only meant to make the instrument have a wider sonic range. Buy one synth, get vast possibilities for sound design. You don't have to travel across this whole range during one note. (Even if it's quite common in some modern EDM subgenres)

You make a patch, a configuration for certain performance by using whatever options are available on a synth. The choice of what parameters to control during performance is completely on your responsibility as the musician.

Which instruments are you finding work well for realtime performance (you know...as instruments)?

Anything that allows complex routing of velocity and pitch input.

[morgon]

Well I'm not gonna pay to see that live UNLESS you're pushing buttons playing it behind your head and with your teeth...

[Softsynth]

Originally Posted by MikComposer

I do agree, thought Vangelis would rather probably disagreed

Vangelis has directly expressed disappointment in synthesizers being designed by engineers, not musicians. However his favourite ever synthesizer (mine too, by a country mile) is the CS80. A synthesizer with many, many controls AND crucially superb tonal variation via polyphonic aftertouch control.

Moaning about the sound shaping parameters of a synth is utterly absurd. Akin to moaning about pianos because they can be tuned.
If you wish to bring in controller mapping and automation to capture or record sound shaping during a performance then fine, but this is in addition to traditional playing styles, not instead.
The performance elements for a traditional musician are the keyboard itself, which can have velocity sensitivity, aftertouch control, expression pedal, ribbon or modulation. suspension pedal and additional breath controllers.

In my book the absolute best software synths are the ones that can be mapped and respond to those additional controllers I mention in the paragraph above.
Generally this is where software synths wipe the floor with sample based instruments for expression and dynamics.

[Spacemen Tree]

in addition to the above:

Tapeworm has a place in my heart. One of the first VSTi that I ever downloaded and the first that I used in my first ever recorded track, therefore I may be biased, but I just think it sounds great. Default patch, some reverb long decay. Awesome.

[viscofisy]

Originally Posted by noise_construct

I'm not "spouting words", I'm describing your ramblings as they are, opinionated misconceptions of a layman with an untypically narrow grasp of the situation even for a self proclaimed "musician". And stating "making a living off music" doesn't magically turn irrational opinions valid or relevant. Quite contrary, resorting to reference to false authority just proves that you acknowledge your argument as invalid.

Enough with the verbiage. You then go on to do exactly what you accuse me of - present your narrow unsupported layman's opinion as fact. Surprise surprise.

The bright side of this technological development is that it also enables people to do exactly the kind of music they want without worrying about commercial success.

Or to put it another way, enables people to cobble samey garbage together with very little hope of commercial success in a massively expanding pool of almost identical clones.

How is it "a bright side" to give almost-unlimited options for expression to the bewildered?
All that ends up happening is people churn out derivative noises unidentifiable from the rest.
Where's the new paradigm?
Maybe you can provide a few links.

Where is "the bright side" in the push towards recording using techniques that can't be performed live?
Open up your eyes and ears and look at the evidence.

It's not exactly John Cages or Steve Reichs or even Aphex Twins I'm seeing or hearing.
What is happening is sausage machine stuff.
Post-Orchestral melodrama; dreary derivative glitch; the delusion that modulating everything makes it inventive or somehow "interesting".

Certainly copycat stuff and trying to sound like your musical idols was always common.

The big difference now, with automated VSTis, is that the new musicians can't even play the stuff.

Even you must grasp that this is a radical departure from the whole concept of performing music?

The iron claw of record company execs ...

[noise_construct]

You're just digging your head deeper in the sand, little point in trying to make you see the errors in your thinking.

[viscofisy]

Originally Posted by noise_construct

You're just digging your head deeper in the sand, little point in trying to make you see the errors in your thinking.

You seem to experience this same inferiority often. Maybe that's a clue.

Here's an example of your cognitive dissonance.....or determination to argue the complete opposite, depending on your mood :

Originally Posted by noise_construct

I'm risking sounding like a smart-arse, but wouldn't actual fader riding be like, massively simpler and more meaningful? Human, artistic decisions instead of a compressor controlling the dynamics.

Meaningful human artistic decisions not controlled by software, eh?

[chip mcdonald]

Originally Posted by Judders

I think Maag EQ4 is one of the gems at Plugin Alliance, along with the SPL Transient Designer. I also love the Opto Compressor, and the Lindell 7X-500 is the most aggressive compressor I've got. I got all these in great deals.

Melda's dynamic eq will do what the "Maag" eq does. XLN's DS-10 Drum Shaper can do a lot more than SPL Designer, or you could try Transient by Sleepy Time which is effectively a better version of SPL Transient Designer...

... and I'm not sure why anyone would pay for a compressor plugin these days. dlm Sixty Five is about as aggressive as it gets, not that there isn't plenty of massively bitey free compressor VSTs out there.

Renaissance Comp is still the easiest to deal with interface for a comp, while I don't think it does anything special sound wise it's implementation is par excellent. But not worth a discounted $20 to deal with Wave's install and hoop jumping (and it's still x32, right?).

[noise_construct]

Originally Posted by viscofisy

You seem to experience this same inferiority often. Maybe that's a clue.

Here's an example of your cognitive dissonance.....or determination to argue the complete opposite, depending on your mood :



Meaningful human artistic decisions not controlled by software, eh?

Im going to leave it to other people to explain to you what a compressor is, and why someone would use gain riding instead, but please enjoy trawling post histories and stumbling on big words.

[viscofisy]

Originally Posted by noise_construct

Im going to leave it to other people to explain to you what a compressor is, and why someone would use gain riding instead, but please enjoy trawling post histories and stumbling on big words.

I don't need to "trawl post histories" - you said it all of three days ago when you believed in "meaningful human artistic decisions" which are not controlled by software

Whenever a compressor or LFO or envelope or any other modulation or effect is automated - it takes away from the "meaningful human artistic decisions", as you rightly pointed out ....before changing your mind completely. This applies even more so to supposedly "live" music, "performed" by triggering said automated sequences, as I'm sure you'd now agree.

I'm glad you said the above yourself so clearly, as it's exactly one of the points I'm making.

[Judders]

Originally Posted by chip mcdonald

Melda's dynamic eq will do what the "Maag" eq does. XLN's DS-10 Drum Shaper can do a lot more than SPL Designer, or you could try Transient by Sleepy Time which is effectively a better version of SPL Transient Designer...

... and I'm not sure why anyone would pay for a compressor plugin these days. dlm Sixty Five is about as aggressive as it gets, not that there isn't plenty of massively bitey free compressor VSTs out there.

Renaissance Comp is still the easiest to deal with interface for a comp, while I don't think it does anything special sound wise it's implementation is par excellent. But not worth a discounted $20 to deal with Wave's install and hoop jumping (and it's still x32, right?).

Maag isn't a dynamic EQ, in what way does Melda's dynamic EQ do the same thing?

XLN's DS-10 costs a lot more than I paid for the SPL Transient Designer, plus I love the 2 knob simplicity of the SPL unit. Transient by Sleepy-Time is PC only, plus listening to the company's kick drum example on YouTube, it didn't sound better than the SPL plugin, especially the sustain portion. dlM Sixty Five is PC only, plus it's a dbx emulation, not an 1176 style, so I presume it sounds rather different than the Lindell compressor (not that I've used the hardware, but judging from other 1176 vs. dbx plugins).

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. Just use what you like, or sometimes just use what you ended up with by chance

[noise_construct]

Originally Posted by viscofisy

I don't need to "trawl post histories" - you said it all of three days ago when you believed in "meaningful human artistic decisions" which are not controlled by software

Whenever a compressor or LFO or envelope or any other modulation or effect is automated - it takes away from the "meaningful human artistic decisions", as you rightly pointed out ....before changing your mind completely. This applies even more so to supposedly "live" music, "performed" by triggering said automated sequences, as I'm sure you'd now agree.

I'm glad you said the above yourself so clearly, as it's exactly one of the points I'm making.

You're certainly not the sharpest tool in the shed, are you? Read the thread you digged up by trawling my post history in your futile rage and try to understand what it was about.

You can't? I'm sorry then, guess you just have to work with what you got.