Old 01-02-2020, 12:36 PM   #1
Eraz
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Default Reaper GUI low fps on higher resolutions

Before reading: I always keep the opening post up to date, so people new to this thread (or devs) don't have to read through all the comments.

Short time ago I moved from Cubase to Reaper. Now that I have set up everything as I needed it I have some serious lag problems when dealing with bigger projects.
My track template is about 100 tracks, my main Monitor is a 4k 32" and my second monitor is a 1680x1050 one. I experience lags especially when hand scrolling/vertical scrolling around a bunch of split up items on the 4k monitor, not on the smaller one. In my example I have 2 drum performances of ~3 minutes each, which are dynamically split up at their snare and kick hits. A normal scenario when editing recorded drums.

Before I used a GT1030 which is bare minimum for a 4k monitor and I thought that is the issue, then I ordered a RX590 which should be much more powerful, but still lags, even if it is a little bit better. Overall the smaller screen feels snappier in Reaper, even with no items visible. Windows itself is as snappy as it can get. For comparison: In Cubase it lags a lot less when dealing with similar numbers of tracks and items.

Now everybody says that Reaper doesn't use the GPU, but I can see how 3D usage goes up when scrolling in Reaper. It also depends on the zoom level in the arrangement view. I noticed, that on the 4k screen the 3D GPU usage is always ~double than on the smaller 1680x1050 screen. When zoomed out to max the GPU usage goes up to 70% on the 4k screen and 35% on the smaller one. When zoomed in that all items of the drum performances are visible, the GPU usage drops to 20-30% for each screen, only that it lags on the 4k and is snappy on the smaller screen.

Videos which show the issue:

Video 1a shows you how it lags on the 4k screen when scrolling around the split up drum performances, but not on some single drawn midi items.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlFbYtAa8qs

Video 1b shows you how the GPU 3D usage goes up when zoomed out to max and scrolling. It is around 60%-70% and feels also fast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNZdLw0HTkU

Video 2a shows that on the 1680x1050 screen it is always fluid and reacts quickly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-0q7G8MEbs

Video 2b shows you how the GPU 3D usage goes up when zoomed out to max and scrolling. It is around 30%-35% and feels also fast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr0LII_Kr3Y

Video 3 shows you how it lags in the midi editor when moving notes during playback on the 4k monitor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_PNTv2Vx_o

Video 4 shows no lag in the midi editor when moving notes during playback on the 1680x1050 monitor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrTnz6VtkJk

What I have tried + additional info:

- There is no real big difference from using a Geforce GT1030 with 2GB RAM and a (way faster) AMD RX 590 with 8GB RAM
- Scrolling horizontally is not that bad as scrolling vertically or hand scrolling
- It gets a bit worse sometimes if there is a time selection visible
- I installed Reaper 6.02 freshly
- It behaves exactly the same even with all toolbars disabled
- On one page there are around 80 tracks visible
- does not matter which theme is loaded
- no plugins are loaded
- installed the newest drivers on each graphic card when testing
- tried various display settings like 8bit or 10 bit colors
- free sync on-off, game mode on display on/off (was even worse when it was on)
- different display cables (hdmi 2.0/displayport 1.2)
- installed older drivers or just the standard drivers from windows update
- disabling/enabling integrated graphics
- Cleaned up all remaining GPU/audio drivers with the DDU removal tool and reinstalled drivers
- newest windows update (installed 1909)
- booted to win safe mode to test it
- tried various appearance prefs and UI tweaks in Reaper but no luck (multimon aware/aware/etc)
- scanned my system for virusses/malware/mining with Norton PE/Roguekiller/etc.
- tried various audio buffer settings from lowest to highest
- windows/browsing/office/videos run as smooth as they can be on this PC
- pref hi-resolution peaks is set to off
- tested it positive on multiple systems (read below)

How to reproduce:

I uploaded a project, so others can try to reproduce my issue on a hi-res screen (4k). Would help a lot if others could confirm the issue:
https://mega.nz/#F!cQIRDILA!V4_lE__sNNkzNSKr7xFJmg

1) Open the project and load the Reaper 5 default theme on a 4k screen
2) adjust the zoom level so the items fill the screen horizontally like this

3) marquee select and time select the items and hand/vertical scroll around them
4) then try to zoom in vertically to fill the screen with the items, and repeat Nr. 3). Any change?
5) optionally: try the same on a 1080 screen. In my case its night and day difference
6) You can try to lower the minimum track height in the rtconfig.ini file, this makes it even worse

PS: I sliced the audio up in a lot of pieces to simulate a quantized drum performance and/or a project with a lot of stuff going on. Doesn't matter if plugins are missing, since it happens also without them.
Thank you very much!


I also could reproduce this issue all the time on other systems:

I was able to reproduce this issue on 2 systems which are completely different from mine, to report my findings here. And in both cases I was able to get about the same behaviour on 4k (I downloaded and installed Reaper directly from the homepage and then opened the project I attached in this thread):

AMD Ryzen 7 2700X 8X 3,7Ghz - 32gb RAM - 500gb SSD M2 - GTX 1080 ti - Windows 1803 installed on June 2019
AMD FX8300 8x 3,3 GHz - 8gb RAM - 256 SSD - GT 1030 - Windows 1909 freshly installed

So now I am pretty sure that this must be an issue for everyone with higher resolutions.

Last edited by Eraz; 01-20-2020 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 01-03-2020, 04:59 AM   #2
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Your videos have been assigned as Private (no one else except you could watch them).
Please make them Public (from properties or attributes menus).
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Old 01-03-2020, 05:05 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adXok View Post
Your videos have been assigned as Private (no one else except you could watch them).
Please make them Public (from properties or attributes menus).
Okay thanks, changed it. Should now be visible for everyone!
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Old 01-03-2020, 12:38 PM   #4
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UPDATE:

When (hand)scrolling in Reaper it's the process csrss.exe which uses the GPU. That happens only in Reaper though, when scrolling around in other programs like chrome or explorer csrss.exe is around 2-3%.


And the lag gets better when Reaper is not opened full screen on the 4k monitor. When resizing the Reaper window to ~25% it is nearly as responsive as on the smaller monitor.

Also when setting the 4k monitor down to 1680x1050 resolution, the lag is gone and it is as snappy as on the smaller monitor.
That could lead to the conclusion that the lag is related also to the max displayed track count, cause on 4k I see around 80 tracks at the same time, and on 1920x1200 I see around 40 (on top of that it also depends on the max item count displayed on the screen as seen in video 1a).

EDIT:

Tried to hide also most of the tracks using the track manager, but that does not change anything when resizing the remaining tracks to fill the screen it seems. So not even the track count is the culprit, it seems Reaper just struggles in general on 4k when the full screen is used...

Last edited by Eraz; 01-03-2020 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 01-04-2020, 12:10 PM   #5
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UPDATE 2:

Also when time selecting/marquee selecting/drawing items (basically anything GUI related, some things more, some things less) csrss.exe jumps up when doing any of the operations mentioned before:

- If you have no/less amount of items on your screen it lags less, but csrss.exe uses way more GPU.
- If you have lots of items on your screen it lags more, but the process csrss.exe uses way less GPU.

There must be some correlation to that process.
It seems somehow that with more things going on the view (tracks+items), Reaper limits the amount of usable CPU/GPU for GUI stuff, therefore the CPU/GPU usage goes down and it begins to lag. If less tracks and items are visible, Reaper releases more resources to GUI stuff, the CPU/GPU usage goes up, and everything becomes more snappy again.

This seems to become more of an issue on bigger screens (4K) as more details/pixels/ whatever need to be rendered.
These are all assumptions of course, but it behaves exactly like that.

I also checked if normal tasks in Win10 do spike the GPU use of csrss.exe (since other users complained about that on google), then I checked Cubase with a heavy loaded project, but in both cases it stays below 1%. So only Reaper triggers that process..

Last edited by Eraz; 01-15-2020 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 01-05-2020, 09:21 AM   #6
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I don't understand how csrss.exe would even relate to Reaper, since it should mostly deal with console (command line) windows. (Do you have those open while operating Reaper?)
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Old 01-05-2020, 10:09 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
I don't understand how csrss.exe would even relate to Reaper, since it should mostly deal with console (command line) windows. (Do you have those open while operating Reaper?)
No, no other windows open,just Reaper (and maybe task manager). I did a little research and csrss has or had graphic jobs in Windows. As I understood dwm.exe is the responsible process for window management and graphics, while csrss.exe mostly has some stratup and shutdown purposes. But there are some things left in Windows which still use csrss as graphic process if I am not mistaken.

But now I am not really sure anymore if even csrss could be the culprit, since also in safe mode or with GPU drivers uninstalled there is no change in the lag behaviour of Reaper and csrss does not show up there.
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Old 01-12-2020, 03:25 AM   #8
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Hey there,
I uploaded a project, so others can try to reproduce my issue on a hi-res screen (4k). Would help a lot if others could confirm the issue:
https://mega.nz/#F!cQIRDILA!V4_lE__sNNkzNSKr7xFJmg

1) Open the project and load the Reaper 5 default theme on a 4k screen
2) adjust the zoom level so the items fill the screen horizontally like this

3) marquee select and time select the items and hand/vertical scroll around them
4) then try to zoom in vertically to fill the screen with the items, and repeat Nr. 3). Any change?
5) optionally: try the same on a 1080 screen. In my case its night and day difference
6) You can try to lower the minimum track height in the rtconfig.ini file, this makes it even worse

PS: I sliced the audio up in a lot of pieces to simulate a quantized drum performance and/or a project with a lot of stuff going on. Doesn't matter if plugins are missing, since it happens also without them.

Thank you very much!

Last edited by Eraz; 01-15-2020 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 01-13-2020, 08:51 AM   #9
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I tried the example project and I can reproduce what looks like a low frame rate if I use 4K resolution, 100% scaling (in Windows) and your example project. It is slight on my system and looks kind of like flickering, not really what I would call a lag. A lag would be more a hesitation then it would start drawing. This is more like dropped frames.

I think no one else sees the issue as they don't have as many tracks visible at one time. The use of folders and plugins which allowing tagging and toggling visibility like HeDa's Track Inspector make it unnecessary for their work flow.

GPU acceleration would be nice thought for anyone with large numbers of tracks visible.

FYI: AFAIK Reaper does not use any kind of GPU acceleration in Windows so looking at the graph is not going to show anything.
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Old 01-13-2020, 10:15 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gvanbrunt View Post
I tried the example project and I can reproduce what looks like a low frame rate if I use 4K resolution, 100% scaling (in Windows) and your example project. It is slight on my system and looks kind of like flickering, not really what I would call a lag. A lag would be more a hesitation then it would start drawing. This is more like dropped frames.

I think no one else sees the issue as they don't have as many tracks visible at one time. The use of folders and plugins which allowing tagging and toggling visibility like HeDa's Track Inspector make it unnecessary for their work flow.

GPU acceleration would be nice thought for anyone with large numbers of tracks visible.

FYI: AFAIK Reaper does not use any kind of GPU acceleration in Windows so looking at the graph is not going to show anything.
Thanks for trying it out!
Okay then lets call it a drop of FPS (changed the thread title). But as soon as I move on a smaller resolution the FPS go up, to the point where it runs smooth on 1080p. Around 60fps is what I call smooth, in this example it looks sth like 15 to me on 4k, which is really distracting if you want to work and concentrate on the music.

Not long ago I built a system with good hardware and bought a nice monitor to not being limited by such things and now I there is an awesome DAW which is barely using any processing power, but struggles with its GUI. I know Reaper prioritizes audio over GUI, but in this case, with a decent system, this shouldn't really have that many fps drops. I could understand that behaviour on older computers, but not really on top range CPU systems. That is what made me open this bug report. Hopefully a dev could clear things up, as Reaper is a real dream to work with otherwise!

Last edited by Eraz; 01-13-2020 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 01-13-2020, 12:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gvanbrunt View Post
I think no one else sees the issue as they don't have as many tracks visible at one time. The use of folders and plugins which allowing tagging and toggling visibility like HeDa's Track Inspector make it unnecessary for their work flow.
Many of us see the issue. We just haven't taken the in-depth time Eraz did to report detailed findings (thanks Eraz!) But this has been an issue with larger screens and higher track counts for quite some time. There have been a few improvements for faster redraw but nothing to really alleviate the behavior.

There also has been much discussion about GPU hardware not being used. For instance, Reaper uses VLC as its first choice for video playback. VLC has hardware decoding but the general VLC library Reaper is using doesn't have any hardware decoding. I'm not pointing any fingers here as maybe VLC isn't making it easy idk, but man it would be nice to have my expensive Nvidia card be handling hardware decoding of video playback.

This is one of those things where I think Justin and Schwa just need to take the pain and do a re-vamp of the underlying graphics foundation. Right now, I can literally feel the pain of them trying to do all the HiDPI updates in all the different places. I think putting an updated solid graphics foundation in place that takes into account modern hardware would alleviate much of this and also really help progress moving forward so that these types of issues aren't as crippling as they are now.

Just my two cents. Sorry for the semi-hijack. Back to Eraz's findings...
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Old 01-14-2020, 12:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
Many of us see the issue. We just haven't taken the in-depth time Eraz did to report detailed findings (thanks Eraz!) But this has been an issue with larger screens and higher track counts for quite some time. There have been a few improvements for faster redraw but nothing to really alleviate the behavior.

There also has been much discussion about GPU hardware not being used. For instance, Reaper uses VLC as its first choice for video playback. VLC has hardware decoding but the general VLC library Reaper is using doesn't have any hardware decoding. I'm not pointing any fingers here as maybe VLC isn't making it easy idk, but man it would be nice to have my expensive Nvidia card be handling hardware decoding of video playback.

This is one of those things where I think Justin and Schwa just need to take the pain and do a re-vamp of the underlying graphics foundation. Right now, I can literally feel the pain of them trying to do all the HiDPI updates in all the different places. I think putting an updated solid graphics foundation in place that takes into account modern hardware would alleviate much of this and also really help progress moving forward so that these types of issues aren't as crippling as they are now.

Just my two cents. Sorry for the semi-hijack. Back to Eraz's findings...
Thanks for your contribution! I think it is also important to talk about these things as HiDPI/hi-res is becoming standard. Most people I know who are working in media or tecnical sectors already use at least 1440p.

Today I took some time and tried to reproduce this issue on 2 systems which are completely different from mine, to report my findings here. And in both cases I was able to get about the same behaviour on 4k (I downloaded and installed Reaper directly from the homepage and then opened the project I attached in this thread):

AMD Ryzen 7 2700X 8X 3,7Ghz - 32gb RAM - 500gb SSD M2 - GTX 1080 ti - Windows 1803 installed on June 2019

AMD FX8300 8x 3,3 GHz - 8gb RAM - 256 SSD - GT 1030 - Windows 1909 freshly installed yesterday

So now I am pretty sure that this must be an issue for everyone with higher resolutions.
Reaper is easily one of the best DAWs out there in terms of stability, features and customization. I worked long time in Cubase and thought it was the best DAW for me, because it just did everything I needed at that time. But I had some issues with it here and there lately, so I tried out Reaper and I have to admit I am a convert now. Nearly everything I needed a fix for in Cubase was already there in Reaper. The only thing which keeps me from using it primarily is, that my projects just don't work well on my screens.

Last edited by Eraz; 01-14-2020 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 01-14-2020, 08:51 PM   #13
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Ya I have to say I"ve been waiting a long time for hidpi. I've had a .161 dpi 4k monitor for quite a while... Nice to be able to use it.


If lots of people are seeing the the issue I do feel for them. Reminds me of getting that new shiny video game only to find the graphic card wasn't up to the task and fps was usable but low. I would always switch to a lower res to get my frame rate up to 25-30. Defeats the purpose of the high res monitor. Better GFX cards won't fix this here since there is no acceleration anyway.
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Old 01-15-2020, 01:11 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gvanbrunt View Post
Ya I have to say I"ve been waiting a long time for hidpi. I've had a .161 dpi 4k monitor for quite a while... Nice to be able to use it.


If lots of people are seeing the the issue I do feel for them. Reminds me of getting that new shiny video game only to find the graphic card wasn't up to the task and fps was usable but low. I would always switch to a lower res to get my frame rate up to 25-30. Defeats the purpose of the high res monitor. Better GFX cards won't fix this here since there is no acceleration anyway.
Please don't get me wrong, but I am not sure if its possible to compare these things directly. It's not about fancy ultranice looking graphics here..

On a 24" or 27" 4k screen lowering the resolution might not be a big problem. As you will have the scaling on 150% or even 200% anyway. So by going down with the resolution you can also go down with the scaling and you will have the same screen real estate, it just looks a bit less sharp.

But on 32" (and higher) 4k screens if you lower the resolution to 1080p you will not only lose screen real estate, but everything will look blurry because of the screen size and everything is way too big.
Having only half of the workspace is the biggest problem here. Having your eyes to work on a blurry screen for multiple hours every day is another one.

Last edited by Eraz; 01-15-2020 at 01:20 AM.
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Old 01-20-2020, 05:33 AM   #15
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Default Lag moving midi notes during playback on high resolution

Another scenario where it lags on higher resolution screens:

When moving midi notes during playback there is a huge lag. I uploaded 2 videos where you can see the issue. On the smaller resolution monitor everything is as smooth as it can be.

High resolution monitor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_PNTv2Vx_o
Lower resolution monitor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrTnz6VtkJk
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Old 01-21-2020, 01:07 AM   #16
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I also still have big problems with REAPER on my 4k monitor (first reported here: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=222089).
I'm happy to say that things have gotten better with the TCP since 6.0 (though it's still far from a really smooth experience, especially when I compare it to one of my 1080p screens), but the midi editor is still as bad as before unfortunately when you want to have all tracks shown at once (for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXAx...ature=youtu.be).

The GUI problem is still my only real problem with REAPER (plus the high idle CPU on high track counts), but it's such a significant one that I still can't leave behind Cubase for good.
Hope we'll get a solution to this soon!
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Old 01-21-2020, 09:11 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraz View Post
When moving midi notes during playback there is a huge lag. I uploaded 2 videos where you can see the issue. On the smaller resolution monitor everything is as smooth as it can be.
This is another HUGE issue and is maddening in daily workflow. I generally avoid doing this now unless absolutely necessary which is very inefficient. Such an easy everyday task shouldn't be this "broken".
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Old 01-23-2020, 03:45 AM   #18
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I agree! This is not a problem specifically large screen resolution. These lags appear with a lot of objects. The tracks have been improved. Now you need to improve other elements ...
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