Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > newbieland

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-21-2010, 06:58 PM   #1
Guitar-ologist
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 33
Default Define ? - WDM Kernel Streaming, Direct Sound, ASIO, Dummy

hi again , just thought id ask this general question to try and get a better understanding of how or why we would choose one over say another of them... hopefully someone can give us the low down in plain terms for those of us out there like myself who are not very PC literate .

I think the terms were prezented in reapers drop down list as follows -

- WDM Kernel Streaming,
- Direct Sound,
- ASIO,
- Dummy
- Wave out .... (not sure i think this was an option too ?)


I think thats all of them, im not at the pc with reaper on it so just going by memory, if i missed one or if i put one up that was not on the list please let me know and i will edit and fix...

perhaps this thread will be useful for anyone who is doing a search for info on them . I just think having a thorough round up of all of them together on one page might be helpful .... I personally would like to better understand how to pick the right one to use and why etc ...

posting any Links to good info would be of great help too .

thanks you.
Guitar-ologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2010, 09:37 AM   #2
jinko17
Human being with feelings
 
jinko17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Weimerica
Posts: 1,169
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitar-ologist View Post
hi again , just thought id ask this general question to try and get a better understanding of how or why we would choose one over say another of them... hopefully someone can give us the low down in plain terms for those of us out there like myself who are not very PC literate .

I think the terms were prezented in reapers drop down list as follows -

- WDM Kernel Streaming,
- Direct Sound,
- ASIO,
- Dummy
- Wave out .... (not sure i think this was an option too ?)


I think thats all of them, im not at the pc with reaper on it so just going by memory, if i missed one or if i put one up that was not on the list please let me know and i will edit and fix...

perhaps this thread will be useful for anyone who is doing a search for info on them . I just think having a thorough round up of all of them together on one page might be helpful .... I personally would like to better understand how to pick the right one to use and why etc ...

posting any Links to good info would be of great help too .

thanks you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_streaming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectSound

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Stream_Input/Output
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
Mark me down as one of those people with tons of pieces to be worked on at a later date.
jinko17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2010, 10:05 AM   #3
Guitar-ologist
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 33
Default

thanks Jinko17,

I briefly read through the links , there good ... still curious about the one called "dummy audio" , mind you I only just briefly read your links so it could be in there..

I am gonna take some more time later to more thoroughly read the links and try to understand the info contained in them better. then i will post back here with questions on them etc..

but its a long weekend here in canada so i wont be posting back till after monday...

so thank you again for the links and hope you have a nice weekend too
Guitar-ologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2010, 10:09 AM   #4
snatchman
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 488
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitar-ologist View Post
thanks Jinko17,

I briefly read through the links , there good ... still curious about the one called "dummy audio" , mind you I only just briefly read your links so it could be in there..

I am gonna take some more time later to more thoroughly read the links and try to understand the info contained in them better. then i will post back here with questions on them etc..

but its a long weekend here in canada so i wont be posting back till after monday...

so thank you again for the links and hope you have a nice weekend too
Yes, this terminology can be confusing.. I think " Dummy Audio" sounds like they had me in mind..!(lol)....
snatchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2010, 10:17 AM   #5
Ollie
Super Moderator (no feelings)
 
Ollie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: On or near a dike
Posts: 9,739
Default

It's really only that - a non-functional driver dummy for oddball stuff and troubleshooting. (It lets Reaper work but doesn't touch any audio hardware.)
Ollie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2010, 10:28 AM   #6
Guitar-ologist
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steindork View Post
It's really only that - a non-functional driver dummy for oddball stuff and troubleshooting. (It lets Reaper work but doesn't touch any audio hardware.)
just when i had one foot out the door i got sucked back into the conversation lol..he he

Ok so Odd ball stuff, like what for example(if you can think of example please) , you got me curious now thats all,,,,

Re - snatchman no your wrong, Im sure it must have been me they had in mind ....lol..
Guitar-ologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2010, 10:33 AM   #7
Guitar-ologist
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 33
Default

actually im pressed for time at the moment , so its probably better i get back to this next week(tuesday) after i have given those above links a good reading over first...

I will get back to this on tuesday Steindork, and again thanks
Guitar-ologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2010, 10:53 AM   #8
Mich
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,265
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitar-ologist View Post
Ok so Odd ball stuff, like what for example(if you can think of example please) , you got me curious now thats all,,,,
For example you have a computer that doesn't have any audio hardware thus none of the other drivers, but you still want to test/do something in REAPER on that particular computer; or you want to investigate if a REAPER crash is related to the audio hardware, by using the dummy diver you can exclude the audio hardware from the equation, etc...

The different drivers are just that different drivers. If you don't want or your manufacturer doesn't supply one or the you use a different one. The also work differently, etc..
Mich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2010, 09:16 AM   #9
Guitar-ologist
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mich View Post
or you want to investigate if a REAPER crash is related to the audio hardware, by using the dummy diver you can exclude the audio hardware from the equation, etc...
OH that makes sense , I see now, kinda like using a dummy in place of a real person in a car test crash ,,,the dummy audio is just a kind of fake sound card to as you say help test out reaper or make reaper run on a PC that has no real actual sound card... cool

thanks Mich i think i was assuming dummy audio was something alot more complex, but its just basically as its name implies , its just a fake or dummy sound card .

thank you
Guitar-ologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2010, 08:38 AM   #10
Guitar-ologist
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 33
Default

hi ,

ok i read the wiki's, and some of it is still a bit confusing.

I now understand the Dummy Audio, and the ASIO is obviously used when you have a device that hooks up to your PC with a USB jack, simple enough.

its the remaining ones that im not sure as to when and why one would choose them ?

Kernal streming - wiki says it allows efficient streaming of sound cards and devices, and that it requires less CPU than Wave Out, but that it by-passes volume control ...

Direct sound - wiki says it allows several applications to share access to the sound card at the same time.... So does this mean that i can use a mic into one jack on my pc and plug a tape deck line out into the audio inputs on my pc at the same time and then reaper will be able to record both or all of them using Direct sound ?

Wave Out - I found this when i did a google search for wave out, its taken from a site about tv,
link - http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20178

"There are two types of Audio Modes for each device "DirectSound" and "WaveOut". DirectSound is the latest technology and WaveOut is the older technology carried over from older versions of Windows. It is recommended to select the "Default DirectSound Device", however, some older cards may require using one of the WaveOut devices (Especially for S/PDIF output). "

the info on the wiki's kinda explains what they all are but doesn't really explain why to choose one over the other within the context of reaper and doing audio recording.

the asio and dummy are the only ones that are clear at this point, I still honestly cant say for sure that i would understand when it would be in my best interest to use any of the others or why. I understand a bit more about them from the wiki but not enough to confidently decide on which one to use for recording purposes.?

anyway im still reading up on the net to try and better understand these terms to know when and why to choose one over the other. As i find out more info i will post it back, hopefully I will get this all sorted out sooner or later...preferably sooner..lol.

Guitar-ologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2010, 09:04 AM   #11
brainwreck
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,840
Default

asio - provides much lower latency than direct sound. you'll probably only see an asio driver available for soundcards/audio interfaces that are intended for audio/midi recording. there's no advantage (in most cases) to having low latency performance when listening to music, watching movies, etc. only one app can use the asio driver at once. think of asio as the hot rod of audio drivers.

directsound - the windows general use audio driver. all apps can access it at the same time - you can be listening to an mp3 and watching a youtube video at the same time.

waveout - as you said, old technology carried over.

wdm - also as you already mentioned, lower cpu, doesn't get routed through the windows mixer. i'm assuming that the windows mixer requires some amount of recources.

bottom line here is that you generally only want to use asio in your recording software for it's lower latency.
__________________
It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
brainwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2010, 09:12 AM   #12
Ollie
Super Moderator (no feelings)
 
Ollie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: On or near a dike
Posts: 9,739
Default

It's actually all quite easy: ASIO is not only for USB, it's the basis of low latency audio on most DAW software and ASIO drivers are preferred everywhere for that property, low latency. If you plan on using software instruments, monitor "through the DAW", play software amps etc. this is what you want.

You can use any of the other driver models if you're not relying on latency or your hardware doesn't have ASIO drivers (and doesn't work with ASIO4ALL either) but there are no other obvious benefits.
Ollie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2010, 09:33 AM   #13
Guitar-ologist
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 33
Default

ok lets forget about asio for the moment as it is clear that it is fastest and we understand when to use it..

so then for a person who doesnt have asio gear, and wants to say plug an old type radio shack mixer using RCA jacks into their PC to record on reaper , is there then any benefit to choosing one of the remaining drivers on the list over the others?

I think they say kernel streaming by passes the volume control, so might control over my PC inputs be bypassed too if one choose this ?

and of "wave out" and "direct sound" would i be correct to think that direct sound which claims to be able to run multiple things at once would then be the best choice for putting multiple inputs(rca jacks,mics,) into my PC, maybe at the cost of speed though because the wiki said the volume control software inside of windows adds a bit of latency ???
Guitar-ologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2010, 09:48 AM   #14
brainwreck
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,840
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitar-ologist View Post
ok lets forget about asio for the moment as it is clear that it is fastest and we understand when to use it..

so then for a person who doesnt have asio gear, and wants to say plug an old type radio shack mixer using RCA jacks into their PC to record on reaper , is there then any benefit to choosing one of the remaining drivers on the list over the others?

I think they say kernel streaming by passes the volume control, so might control over my PC inputs be bypassed too if one choose this ?

and of "wave out" and "direct sound" would i be correct to think that direct sound which claims to be able to run multiple things at once would then be the best choice for putting multiple inputs(rca jacks,mics,) into my PC, maybe at the cost of speed though because the wiki said the volume control software inside of windows adds a bit of latency ???
allowing multiple apps to access the audio driver simultaneously doesn't really have anything to do with using multiple hardware inputs simultaneously. the only downside i see for wdm is that you might lose control of adjusting input levels in the windows mixer. all i can say is compare direct sound and wdm for cpu use and functionality - make up your own mind.

btw, should you need lower latency than what wdm or direct sound can provide, there's always asio4all. it's a generic asio driver that wraps the wdm driver. it won't provide as low latency as a well coded asio driver that was written for a specific audio device, but it will provide much lower latency than wdm. personally, i'd want low latency even for mixing, as the controls (such as volume, pan, etc.) will respond faster.
__________________
It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
brainwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2010, 07:32 PM   #15
Guitar-ologist
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 33
Default

ok brianwreck , i think im making a mountain out of a mole hill here, but i think im getting the picture, it does all seem confusing , but im starting understand.

its just that apart from the ASIO which i understand, i just wasnt sure if i was picking the "optimum" setting or the correct setting when doing things like trying to send sound into pc using RCA jacks into back of pc ... think i thought there was more to it than there really is sorta thing..

Ok I think im getting a grasp on it now, thanks everyone for your efforts and help.

Guitar-ologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2010, 11:17 PM   #16
pooka
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1
Default WaveOut? What next?

My drop down box has the same list, WDM Kernal Streaming, Direct sound, WaveOut, ASIO, Dummy Audio. My computer doesn't have ASIO. The bottom of the box says that WaveOut is chosen by default for better compatibility. The manual doesn't have directions for WaveOut, though and suggests ASIO. Can I make recordings of voices talking with the WaveOut choice? How do I do that?
pooka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2010, 10:48 PM   #17
brainwreck
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,840
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
My drop down box has the same list, WDM Kernal Streaming, Direct sound, WaveOut, ASIO, Dummy Audio. My computer doesn't have ASIO. The bottom of the box says that WaveOut is chosen by default for better compatibility. The manual doesn't have directions for WaveOut, though and suggests ASIO. Can I make recordings of voices talking with the WaveOut choice? How do I do that?
https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/361430/...ng-a-track.gif
__________________
It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
brainwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2010, 10:57 PM   #18
Ollie
Super Moderator (no feelings)
 
Ollie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: On or near a dike
Posts: 9,739
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
Ollie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2010, 02:41 AM   #19
brainwreck
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,840
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steindork View Post
fanks steiny. using an image editor to display text takes a little longer, but it looks nice. i think that i will switch to this method from now on.

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/361530/record_a_track.gif
__________________
It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
brainwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2014, 12:54 AM   #20
kjwmusic
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Miswest
Posts: 10
Default Multi sound card setup that woked for me (Two Echo Layla 20 bit cards)

Computer Specs:
Reaper 3.61
2 Intel Xeon 3.6Ghz
4GB of RAM (as this is the maximum Win2k can allocate)
Intel Motherboard with 4 PCI 2.1 slots and 1 AGP 8X slot
1 Nvidia Video card with two 32" Samsung TV/Monitors
2 Event Electronics (Echo Audio)Layla PCI sound cards with Beakout boxes(the 20 bit version)

Each Beakout box of the Layla consists of 8 1/4" TRS Ballanced/UnBallanced inputs and 10 1/4" TRS Ballanced/UnBallanced Outputs (all switchable between -10db/+4db) (No preamps) plus 2 S/PDIF inputs and 2 S/PDIF outputs via left/right.

This allows a total of 20 inputs (16 anolog) and 24 outputs (20 anolog).

Each sound card requires it's ow PCI slot with a propriatary 25 pin cable that runs to its perspective brealout box.

INSTALATION PROCESS:
1) If you havent already installed one of the cards yet, do so now, but only one card. Do not put the second PCI card in just yet. Make sure your drivers are working properly befor proceeding. I used the 6.08beta drivers (which can be downloaded from Echo's websit under Archives or Legacy. I am not going to go into detail about driver installation, as this is a dependant on whether or not you have intalled it before. Removing the old drivers to make a clean install requires a thourough knowledge of the Windows registry.

2) After you have successfully installed the first card and verified proper opperation of all inputs and outputs, shut down the PC and install the second PCI card into an avilable PCI slot. Since My PC has 4 available slots, I left an empty slot between the two PCI cards just to promote good air flow. This, of coarse is up to you and what your configuration allows.

SIDE NOTE: Thats it! Well sort of... That's it for the hardware/software install, because once you reboot, The card will automatically be recognised and configured as a second layla card in the divice manager of Windows, as wel as by the Layla console software. Simplyclick yes when windows prompts you about new hardware found.
In order for two of these Layla20's to run in harmony with one another, there a few setting in the Layla console software that accompany each sound card. I would suggest doing all of this prior to opening reaper, as rear will crash your PC until you set this up correctly"

3) OK, Now the bells and whistles that make it all work. First, get yourself a 75 ohm RG59 coax or video cable with BNC connectors on each end. you only need one, unless you plan on installing a nother Layla or other devices that must slave/master the Layla. Now, open Layla's console windows, one for each card installed and see which card is which, (either by testing playback, or input gain). Once you know which card is first, Connect the BNC cable from the Wordclock output jack of the first card to the Wordclock input jack of the second card. You must hook up the cable first, or it will not allow you to choose the right settings. Make the first card the MASTER by selecting "INTERNAL" for the clock input AND "SUPERCLOCK OUT" (not word clock)for the wordclock out. Now, in the second card's console. select "SUPER" as the input. The rest of the clock settings, leave as is, for it will not matter what these are set to (unless, you are hooking up additional gear.) Note: if you plan on installing more layla cards, they will all be set up the same manor, in decending order.

4.) Open reaper and select all entire list of inputs (Prefrences>Options>Audio>Device.)Choose ASIO WDM Layla Drivers, not ASIO4all, or any other setting, as it most likely will cause problems. I was able to record 16 tracks while playing 38 tracks out of 20 outputs all at once without so much as a pop or click. this was also while running 34 FX of mostle VST's an a few direct X. All of this on an ols Window 2000 Machine.
You should have 20 inputs and 24 outputs running smoothly.

Last edited by kjwmusic; 05-07-2014 at 01:03 AM. Reason: add info
kjwmusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2014, 01:08 AM   #21
Mr. PC
Human being with feelings
 
Mr. PC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Cloud 37
Posts: 905
Default

Ok,

So how about if you don't want to use ASIO because the buffer limit is 2048 samples and you need a higher buffer (e.g. you're using an enormous about of samples, LASS, Adagio, Spitfire, etc. etc. with all articulation over 200 tracks.)

Is it possible to use WDM with an 8192 sample buffer in order to get smoother playback? Would direct sound be better in this case?

Or maybe there's another alternative to native ASIO or asio4all that will allow a higher buffer.
Mr. PC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2014, 04:46 PM   #22
kjwmusic
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Miswest
Posts: 10
Default ASIO samle buffer

If Mr PC was refering to my post about Layla20's; the reason I insisted on AISO with the Echo layla, is simply because Reaper doesent seem to work with the other settings. The Superwave and WDM work great for other software that I run, such as Sound Forge, Gutar Tracks Pro, Massive, Wavelab, Fruity Loops and Makining Waves. But I use this computer primarily for recording musicians. Seldom do I deal with MIDI, or other forms of music. All I can say is my layla, which I have been running for over 10 years has been rock solid with very little dropouts. I only recently added a second PCI/breakout box, and so far, it has given me a small amount od audio stutter when I first start Reaper, but a few munited in, and the 2 cards run just as good as the one. I am ssure id I dropped some VST FX, it would be perfect. Some of my mixes will have over 75 live FX plugs running all at once, which spikes my CPU. But anyway, back to what you asked, the WDM drivers work great if you do not need a bunch of anolog inputs all at once. If you are recording 16 tracks at once, I would suggest switching to ASIO,at least whike recording, the switch to WDM for mixing and editing. The "console3" spftare that comes with layla allows you to change the driver in real-time without rebooting you PC. It may take a minute, sometimes two, but it will work, as long as you dont have any ausio appz runnung at the time you switch the ASIO/WDM/purewave driver. Hope this helps
kjwmusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2015, 05:10 AM   #23
aspiringSynthesisingAlch
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 277
Default wdm kernel streaming (XP) > 100 ms LESS latency?

I've read enough to hear that XP is a great win-platform to run DAW stuff on.

I've just now (having read this post whilst reading the reaper user guide and paying attention to audio device settings) noticed the significant reduction in (approx) latency when using WDM.

I'm on win 7 x64. i have a NEW Behringer U-CONTROL UCA222 USB-Audio Interface Adapter in the mail (eta before 8th may) and will be able to compare then...
EDIT: just spotted WASAPI is ~10ms...

is this up to the user (and his ears) to spot latency issues? (instead of some graphical representation somewhere?)
(really want to get this config stuff RIGHT FIRST TIME ya see)

in the meantime, is it worth setting up a dualboot / viurtalXPbox?

Hoping the guide 'details buffer-tweaking for dummies' to get optimal sampling etc




NOOB Q: I thought bit depth / rate was JUST samplerate + sample format....

what's with the (buffers) 4x512 samples (WDM)? is this for recording, and the audio device configuration is for playback?

sure there's several stickies pertaining to these insights will keep hunting... THANKS!!
aspiringSynthesisingAlch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.