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Old 01-10-2015, 12:30 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Fix for a bug in previous pre when a timesig was created even if you just changed tempo and didn't enter any timesig changes.
thanks, I had hoped for a moment...
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Old 01-10-2015, 12:37 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
I do think a VCA master should at a minimum maybe default to a fader cap color or something for ID purposes, that would be cool, if the fader cap automatically went red or blue or something just for quickly ID'ing a VCA master from a regular group master.
Perhaps that could be WALTERable too (automatically that is, not selecting a layout)
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Old 01-10-2015, 12:43 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
One "maybe a wee bit premature" workflow suggestion. I'd 'reduce' the workflow for this early in the pre and just put it on a context menu.

Select X number of tracks, right click and "Create VCA Fader", and have that just happen with the next available unused group, without opening the group matrix or grouping dialog or anything, and create the new VCA Master underneath the last selected track maybe.
this!
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Old 01-10-2015, 12:46 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Hmm also btw I'm going to change some VCA implementations for the next pre, in such a way that will likely break existing VCA-using projects, so definitely don't do anything important with the VCA groups just yet!
You might be doing this anyway (or it might be a bad idea)

With VCAs, would it be good if on the VCA master. It's automation was allowed to control either pre or post fader volume on the VCA slaves based on that master tracks automation envelope being the pre or post volume envelope?

That way the automation on the one master track could control both of these factors for automation at least.
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Old 01-10-2015, 12:48 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
You might be doing this anyway (or it might be a bad idea)

With VCAs, would it be good if on the VCA master. It's automation was allowed to control either pre or post fader volume on the VCA slaves based on that master tracks automation envelope being the pre or post volume envelope?

That way the automation on the one master track could control both of these factors for automation at least.
Yeah, I've thought about this, but the problem is that there's a lot of value in having the master track trim control pre-fx VCA volume as well, and in that case applying both wouldn't be desired. So instead I'm going to make it always be the post-fx envelope+trim that is applied, and make you use two master tracks (in separate groups) if you wish to apply both pre-fx and post-fx gain.
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Old 01-10-2015, 12:50 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
I do think a VCA master should at a minimum maybe default to a fader cap color or something for ID purposes, that would be cool, if the fader cap automatically went red or blue or something just for quickly ID'ing a VCA master from a regular group master.
It does have the ribbon grouping indicators, but perhaps those are too subtle
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Old 01-10-2015, 12:55 PM   #47
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It does have the ribbon grouping indicators, but perhaps those are too subtle
Yeah its too subtle,something more obvious for VCA MASTER would be cool
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Old 01-10-2015, 12:55 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
0 should be default for note off. That means immediate release (like note on velocity 127, which means immediate hit/maximum force).
Your logic seems sound. However, the default Note On velocity is 96, not 127...

On a related note: The Note On velocity for new notes seems to follow the velocity of the last selected note, but this is not the case for Note Off velocity. IMHO Note On and Off velocity should follow the same rules.
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Old 01-10-2015, 12:55 PM   #49
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One thing I'm currently testing is nesting.

Not because many people (or anyone) will actually do that but only more just because the group matrix actually allows it, at least visually, making nested assignments.
Example
Tracks 1-3 are VCA slaves to Track 4.
Track 4 is a VCA slave to Track 5.
You might see this kind of nesting (or overlap) in things like backing vox where harmony groups might have their own individual VCA groups but they all also belong to another VCA group for all the backing vox as one.

Because you can make that kind of nested assignment visually in the group matrix with a track that's already serving as a VCA master, you would think that Track 5's gain/trim in that example might flow all the way through to Tracks 1-3 but it doesn't appear to. But I'm still trying it to see if I'm really doing what I think I'm doing.

Aside from that, I'm actually not even sure if VCA Masters should or do even nest that way, Airon probably knows better, or if the most common approach for that kinda thing is really more of a overlapping slave assignment than literally nesting VCA masters, and I don't currently have anything else installed here with VCA's to look at to see how some others may approach all that in software.

It actually may be the case that in things like Pyramix or Cubase the VCA faders are a track class and actually can't be directly assigned to each other in any case. I don't recall with Pyramix.

In Reaper it's all kinda visually wide open in the Group Matrix though, which is why I'm trying it.
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:01 PM   #50
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Thanks for adding VCAs. Is there any chance you guys could allow the routing/group matrix window to be zoomed in, or allow bigger fonts?

It's very hard see the labels(IMHO).
Thanks!
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:08 PM   #51
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First off, just updated with pre5b, which has a more consistent VCA master/slave/pre-fx setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
One thing I'm currently testing is nesting.

Not because many people (or anyone) will actually do that but only more just because the group matrix actually allows it, at least visually, making nested assignments.
Example
Tracks 1-3 are VCA slaves to Track 4.
Track 4 is a VCA slave to Track 5.
Traditional hardware VCAs do have nesting, however REAPER's VCA do not. You can however put any track in *multiple* VCA groups, which can be used to achieve the same goal and is considerably more flexible.

You can also gang volume faders on the VCA master tracks, should you wish to have VCA groups linked in that manner.
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:15 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
One thing I'm currently testing is nesting.

Not because many people (or anyone) will actually do that but only more just because the group matrix actually allows it, at least visually, making nested assignments.
Example
Tracks 1-3 are VCA slaves to Track 4.
Track 4 is a VCA slave to Track 5.
You might see this kind of nesting (or overlap) in things like backing vox where harmony groups might have their own individual VCA groups but they all also belong to another VCA group for all the backing vox as one.

Because you can make that kind of nested assignment visually in the group matrix with a track that's already serving as a VCA master, you would think that Track 5's gain/trim in that example might flow all the way through to Tracks 1-3 but it doesn't appear to. But I'm still trying it to see if I'm really doing what I think I'm doing.

Aside from that, I'm actually not even sure if VCA Masters should or do even nest that way, Airon probably knows better, or if the most common approach for that kinda thing is really more of a overlapping slave assignment than literally nesting VCA masters, and I don't currently have anything else installed here with VCA's to look at to see how some others may approach all that in software.

It actually may be the case that in things like Pyramix or Cubase the VCA faders are a track class and actually can't be directly assigned to each other in any case. I don't recall with Pyramix.

In Reaper it's all kinda visually wide open in the Group Matrix though, which is why I'm trying it.
My normal setup is exactly that way. Vox folder, vox lead and vox harmonies folder beneath with all the tracks beliw.. Same with guitar folder having electric and acoustic folders beneath. Pulling down a top or lower level folder needs to pull down all the levels and sends on subtracks. It should do it for any level of nesting of folders. Also, tinting the fader cap would work for me.
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:18 PM   #53
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Thanks (to Justin for the answer).

This is all highly intriguing imo. I say that because (and again, I'm waiting for Airon to help fill in some blanks) if Reaper does VCA gain/trim pre-fx, that maybe also opens up some potentially nice use cases for VCAs with cue mixes, which are typically pre-fader, once you kinda throw Reaper's routing into the equation.

There's a lot here to think about, to consider as relates to expanded or maybe not so typical use cases. I'm very interested to see where all this ultimately ends up. Looks pretty nice so far.

Last edited by Lawrence; 01-10-2015 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:19 PM   #54
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Thanks for the VCA!

Just a thing.

I feel that the mute automation on the VCA need to mute all the slaves...

right now it bypass the VCA function which is great but i feel that both feature would be awesome

If a track is set as master of VCA, a new envelope line should appear :"bypass VCA"

now you can mute all the slave with the mute automation or bypass the action of the VCA with the bypass envelope

by doing this, VCA could be even stronger because the vca slave will follow pan, witdh, mute, volume pre fx and pan pre fx automation
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:20 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
First off, just updated with pre5b, which has a more consistent VCA master/slave/pre-fx setting.
Ribbon for master is still subtle,I would love it to be some dramatic change/indicator,like folder track, you know its a folder track when you see it
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:20 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Reno.thestraws View Post
Thanks for the VCA!

Just a thing.

I feel that the mute automation on the VCA need to mute all the slaves...

right now it bypass the VCA function which is great but i feel that both feature would be awesome

If a track is set as master of VCA, a new envelope line should appear :"bypass VCA"

now you can mute all the slave with the mute automation or bypass the action of the VCA with the bypass envelope

by doing this, VCA could be even stronger because the vca slave will follow pan, witdh, mute, volume pre fx and pan pre fx automation

You can link mutes via grouping, no need to use the VCA for that...
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:27 PM   #57
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I think you are on the right VCA track if the folder nesting is honored so all my vox tracks can be slaves to vox lead folder, vox BG tracks slaves to vox BG folder and vox lead and vox BG folder can slave to vox. This will need to work for deeper nesting.
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:27 PM   #58
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Quote:
You can link mutes via grouping, no need to use the VCA for that...
sorry but I don't see how to use it



https://stash.reaper.fm/22873/nope.gif

here's a simple test

the slave don't follow the vca master mute automation...

nor pan
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:30 PM   #59
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Default v5.0pre5b - January 10 2015

v5.0pre5b - January 10 2015
# VCA: changed VCA implementation, separate VCA master/slave flags, VCA pre-FX slave grouping flag. breaks pre5 VCA in projects completely

maybe updated the OP post?
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:30 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Reno.thestraws View Post
sorry but I don't see how to use it



https://stash.reaper.fm/22873/nope.gif

here's a simple test

the slave don't follow the vca master mute automation...

nor pan
Yes, same observation here. Question: shoulnd't VCA masters control everything on slave tracks? I mean gain, pan and mute. Having to use the mute option is not the first thing I tried.
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:36 PM   #61
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This is insane, oh mother of god .. !
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:37 PM   #62
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Quote:
Question: shoulnd't VCA masters control everything on slave tracks? I mean gain, pan and mute. Having to use the mute option is not the first thing I tried.
It would be a lot more logical.

If a track is assign as VCA slave, it should follow automation on master track for every parameters checked in the group

VCA are not just for volume

imho, checking the VCA slave tick means "slave follow master automation".

in fact, just an option is enough for me.

having a VCA that controls the volume without moving the fader of the slave is cool but it's not really a priority

the priority is "follow this fucking envellope"
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:42 PM   #63
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And now for something completely different:


Concerns: Project Directory Cleanup Window:

- Can't use CMD + A key to select all files which i want to have cleaned out.
That key combo doesn't do anything, it doesn't work.

- Reaper v5 pre5b
- OSX 10.10.1
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:44 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
Yes, same observation here. Question: shoulnd't VCA masters control everything on slave tracks? I mean gain, pan and mute. Having to use the mute option is not the first thing I tried.
I can get with you on pan (even if classic consoles didn't always do this), but for mute I think it's much more useful to be able to mute the VCA master's influence on the slaves, especially since if you want to mute the slaves, you can just drop the VCA master's volume fader.
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:47 PM   #65
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especially since if you want to mute the slaves, you can just drop the VCA master's volume fader.
sorry justin but no

If you drop the fader, you're only muting the signal to the master buss and to the receives tracks WITH POST Fader SENDS

so if I want to mute a drums from the VCA, my drums will still hitting the reverb
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:49 PM   #66
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+ Track grouping: VCA slave track group setting
# MIDI editor: note-off velocities can be edited in a separate lane
# MIDI editor: show tempo/time signature markers in the ruler
# MIDI: stop hanging notes when muting MIDI media items during playback
# VST3: various fixes relating to preset changes
# Routing: creating or changing a sidechain send does not send MIDI

Thank you, really great

Quote:
Justin:
A pondering: should we make the VCA master a separate group flag from the volume master?
Might make sense to make VCA master a separate option though, I'm thinking now.
Yes and Yes

Quote:
EvilDragon:
0 should be default for note off. That means immediate release (like note on velocity 127, which means immediate hit/maximum force).
That is wrong.

The value interprets the speed of release and not
the time of release.

This indicates how quickly the note should be released (where 127 is the fastest)
0= longest release for Note off(x80>x8F) messages
127= shortest release for Note off(x80>x8F) messages

And 0 for Note on messages(x90>x9F)with Vel 0 means the same as Note off messages(x80>x8F) with a release of 40H

Quote:
Tale:
When drawing new notes they seem to get a default Note Off velocity value of 0. Maybe a default value of 64
Yes the default should be 64.
Just like Pan
With this Midi Spec of Note Offs the Industry was always inconsequently.

Quote:
EvilDragon:
* It's more consistent to MIDI spec to call it either Release Velocity (abbr. Rel Velocity),
or Note Off velocity (both Note On and Note Off have a 7-bit parameter that is the velocity of that event).
Although the spec says Midi note off release velocity but personally I find this Description to Note off rather unsuccessful.
Because the larger the value, the shorter the release.
Therefore , to avoid triggering confusion even at the last , I 'm for a new Standard name called:
Note Off Release Speed
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:50 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
I can get with you on pan (even if classic consoles didn't always do this), but for mute I think it's much more useful to be able to mute the VCA master's influence on the slaves, especially since if you want to mute the slaves, you can just drop the VCA master's volume fader.
Yep, I'm playing with it and I realized that I can just drop the VCA master's volume fader to zero and actually mute it but I'm still trying to think why it would benefit to leave mute out of the functionality hmmmm maybe it's because I see VCA masters like a special thing to use in one go, something that's there and you can use it for everything (not that we can't do it by dropping the volume but more like "this controls everything").

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reno.thestraws View Post
sorry justin but no

If you drop the fader, you're only muting the signal to the master buss and to the receives tracks WITH POST Fader SENDS

so if I want to mute a drums from the VCA, my drums will still hitting the reverb
And then there's that
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:50 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by swiiscompos View Post
# MIDI editor: note-off velocities can be edited in a separate lane
# MIDI editor: show tempo/time signature markers in the ruler
# MIDI: stop hanging notes when muting MIDI media items during playback
# Routing: creating or changing a sidechain send does not send MIDI
These 4 are huge in my books, thanks!
Small suggestion for routing - hold ctrl while dragging IO for send to 3/4 instead of 1/2? Small tweak to improve workflow.
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:52 PM   #69
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# Routing: creating or changing a sidechain send does not send MIDI

Hold on.. does this mean we won't get feedback/blocked for things like setting up kontakt with multiple outs but separate midi tracks all in one folder?

hmm, actually it's not that is it.. oh well
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Old 01-10-2015, 02:00 PM   #70
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Quote:
even if classic consoles didn't always do this
I Really, really really feel that classic console don't have to be set as an example to follow in a DAW; especialy in reaper

Classic consoles don't have 64 channels of audio and don't route MIDI
Classic consoles don't have folders
...

I difinetly think that an option "slave follow master automation" is enough and a lot more intuitive

and it make such things possible

Quote:
Not because many people (or anyone) will actually do that but only more just because the group matrix actually allows it, at least visually, making nested assignments.
Example
Tracks 1-3 are VCA slaves to Track 4.
Track 4 is a VCA slave to Track 5.
You might see this kind of nesting (or overlap) in things like backing vox where harmony groups might have their own individual VCA groups but they all also belong to another VCA group for all the backing vox as one.
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Old 01-10-2015, 02:00 PM   #71
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Love the pre effects slave VCA, so powerful! thanks!

FR

Could we sneak in a "trim" control into somewhere in the track controls.

Even if we put it in the track control panel (when you right click the volume fader) that would work.

That would keep compatability with other themes and put it out the way for the times when it's needed.

A control that gives us a pre effects volume per track would be insanely useful for mixing.

The amount of times people in most DAWS have to use a trim vst instead when using "analog emulation" effects shows it would be useful here.

Right now to do this, I either use a plugin or pull down the automation envelope, neither is as fast.
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Old 01-10-2015, 02:01 PM   #72
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Somebody go ring Airon's doorbell.

He might be recovering from a bender but his presence is required.

I think it's safe enough to say that he is - the guy - around here with professional film mixing experience and maybe should be consulted as this bounces down the mountain.
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Old 01-10-2015, 02:03 PM   #73
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Justin, I'm hearing pops when I stop the playback if VCA slaves have plug-ins. Known bug for now? Two pops sound when I hit stop.

[EDIT] Yeah, it happens when the mute envelope is shown on the VCA Master. Fully reproducible.
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Old 01-10-2015, 02:03 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanhaze View Post
And now for something completely different:


Concerns: Project Directory Cleanup Window:

- Can't use CMD + A key to select all files which i want to have cleaned out.
That key combo doesn't do anything, it doesn't work.

- Reaper v5 pre5b
- OSX 10.10.1
I'll "bite" on this and add..

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE include track icons in what you can "clean" as right now you can't easily get rid of them if you transfer a project to another computer and you always get the "cannot find files" box you have to trawl through even after re-saving projects. Thanks!
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Old 01-10-2015, 02:06 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELP View Post
This indicates how quickly the note should be released (where 127 is the fastest)
0= longest release for Note off(x80>x8F) messages
127= shortest release for Note off(x80>x8F) messages

And 0 for Note on messages(x90>x9F)with Vel 0 means the same as Note off messages(x80>x8F) with a release of 127
This actually depends on the actual instrument and how IT reproduces release velocity. It can also be inverted, for all it's worth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ELP View Post
Yes the default should be 64.
Just like Pan
With this Midi Spec of Note Offs the Industry was always inconsequently.

NO! Release velocity is NOT pan, it should not default to 64. 0 is a good default, because that's what you get with a keyboard that DOES NOT transmit release velocity - it's interpreted as 0 in the MIDI stream.
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Old 01-10-2015, 02:07 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
# Routing: creating or changing a sidechain send does not send MIDI

Hold on.. does this mean we won't get feedback/blocked for things like setting up kontakt with multiple outs but separate midi tracks all in one folder?

hmm, actually it's not that is it.. oh well
This is related to VST3 sidechain "feature". Previously the dropdown in the pin connector created an audio and a MIDI send, when obviously a MIDI send wasn't necessary.
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Old 01-10-2015, 02:07 PM   #77
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I think it's safe enough to say that he is - the guy - around here with professional film mixing experience and maybe should be consulted as this bounces down the mountain.
agreed on airon's experience but VCA are not only for mixing film and there's so many difference in the worflow between post and music mixer
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Old 01-10-2015, 02:12 PM   #78
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Ribbon for master is still subtle,I would love it to be some dramatic change/indicator,like folder track, you know its a folder track when you see it
Agreed.

Also, I'm hoping though that in the final white tie theme we can have a track panel that has only the VCA master controls on it and looks different enough to be instantly recognised as a VCA master track.

Perhaps we could even have a slightly different VCA slave track panel layout too for quick recognition.
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Old 01-10-2015, 02:15 PM   #79
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Why not simply make the default note-off velocity a preference? Isn't that how we're used to do things here?

And yay, DCA! Err, okay, VCA.
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# Notation editor: fixed bad font sizing on OSX
Yeah, that was a bit weird.
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Old 01-10-2015, 02:16 PM   #80
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agreed on airon's experience but VCA are not only for mixing film and there's so many difference in the worflow between post and music mixer
Indeed.

When outputting 100's of SFX for games via the render window's "selected item" option.


Doing this via folders is not an option because of the output coming from the track and not the master.

VCA slaving will allow a very quick way to change all the levels at once for a "quickish" volume change of the whole game's assets when the game engine doesn't have a master level control. (believe me, it happens more often then you'd like!)
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