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Old 04-30-2019, 07:23 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by inarisound View Post
If you hate so much experimenting and produce new designs why taking that gig?

tl;td If you don't enjoy what you are doing, just hand it to people that do enjoy it. Win win for both sides.
To be fair, Reaper has always sort of lagged behind other DAWs in its polish GUI. Color scheme, vectorless, plain, 1999 looking. But it packs a punch. Themeing doesn't cut it. Look at FL, Logic, Studio One, SONAR, I mean Cubase. DP? These ooze pro looking. But lack scripts and stuff. So yes we love Reaper for it's depth but man, it's not pretty lol.
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Old 04-30-2019, 07:54 PM   #282
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I think if I had to guess, I would say that many of you who don't like the V6 theme also didn't like the V5 theme. Which is fine.

But if I'm also guessing, I'd say that WT is trying to improve the V5 theme in making the V6 one. Not trying to create some great looking Imperial-esque theme. So I think it needs to be judged along those lines.

V5 theme was the vanilla theme. It's not chocolate. It's not strawberry. It doesn't want to be pistachio. It wants to be the best version of vanilla. And if you don't like vanilla, that may be confusing for you. You may see this as a great opportunity to create the best chocolate theme that's ever been created. That's not what this is though.

Embrace "Vanilla".
It's not just that, Kenny. I love vanilla. My favorite ice cream flavor lol.

But what I'm also looking for is consistency. The design elements are just not consistent and that's a big problem for a lot of us. If the design elements were all straight vanilla that would be fine. But this is generic brand vanilla, mixed with a little more premium brand vanilla, combined with french vanilla, etc.

Yes, you are correct that a lot of people just didn't like the look of the V5 theme. That isn't the problem here. Putting new different elements on top of older elements that don't have the same look or design is just well, bad design.

It would have been much better to start the new "vanilla" from the ground up because doing it this way, there is almost no possible way you can separate all the different brands of vanilla in this theme to make it consistent and also IMHO it takes away from what WT is really capable of doing.
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Old 04-30-2019, 09:00 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by lowellben View Post

Look at FL, Logic, Studio One, SONAR, I mean Cubase. DP? These ooze pro looking.
1. I disagree with you on this. I think most of THEM are pretty damn ugly. Which leads me to believe this is a subjective topic. Not an objective one.

2. Why do you guys keep using words like "ugly", "not professional" and "amateur" as some type of persuasive technique? Does this work in your other relationships? Seriously?

The reason people ask for constructive criticism is because that's the type of information they can use. And more importantly, the type of information they will respond to.

WT is asking the community for their help because he respects the community and thinks you all can help him and REAPER be better. Or in this case, look and function correctly regarding the theme.
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Old 04-30-2019, 11:25 PM   #284
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I'm not going to do design by committee on the forum, it doesn't work. Pages of people arguing about design instead of testing the theme only serves to reinforce the self-evident correctness of that decision. I am not going to be persuaded on this. Sorry.

Furthermore, one or two of you seem to be saying, it would appear, that you don't want design by committee, you want design by dictation, and you want to be the dictator. Well, please allow me to respond: I don't get to do that, and you don't either. Its a hard no, and I'm not going to be persuaded on that either.

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consistency.
consistent
consistent
Please read the first post, this is explained there.
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Old 04-30-2019, 11:48 PM   #285
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Come on People.
Lets try to keep this Thread on Topic

HELP TEST THIS THEME

So we can get the best working theme.

when its released im 100% sure people will mod The things they dont like anyway
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Old 04-30-2019, 11:54 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Vincent Sermonne View Post
Label and value hiding seems broken to me.
When I "hide always" it disappears, but when I uncheck everything, it only appears when selected, as shown by Vincent here.
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Old 04-30-2019, 11:56 PM   #287
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I have found it, I have killed it. And I am absolutely 100% sure I would not have managed it without your repro. We did this together, thanks so much man.
My pleasure.

So... uninitialised variable ?? :-)
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Old 04-30-2019, 11:59 PM   #288
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I can't replicate the first, it looks almost as if Reaper is reading a second click - one to select the track, the second clicking on the empty insert. Is there anything non-standard about your mouse?
The problem occurs on my laptop with both the touchpad and a USB mouse.
Should probably give it a try on my desktop if I have some time.
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Old 05-01-2019, 12:16 AM   #289
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So... uninitialised variable ?? :-)
No, but just as crap.

I built the layouts using A as the prototype, then duplicated to B and C, then went through and applied 'A' as always the layout for parameters which affect all layouts. Which probably made sense at the time buy is now clearly a kludge. Anyway, imagine what would happen if dipshit thought he had applied the kludge when the sending the maximum track name length to the theme, but he hadn't. Gosh, well now that would break it in a really confusing way, wouldn't it?
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Old 05-01-2019, 12:18 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
1. I disagree with you on this. I think most of THEM are pretty damn ugly. Which leads me to believe this is a subjective topic. Not an objective one.

2. Why do you guys keep using words like "ugly", "not professional" and "amateur" as some type of persuasive technique? Does this work in your other relationships? Seriously?

The reason people ask for constructive criticism is because that's the type of information they can use. And more importantly, the type of information they will respond to.

WT is asking the community for their help because he respects the community and thinks you all can help him and REAPER be better. Or in this case, look and function correctly regarding the theme.


Now let me clarify this thing for all "it's subjective, dude".

White Tie is a great contributor, I don't want to diminish his/her achievements, but there are times when you ether do your job properly or delegate it to someone who is more qualified/passionate for it.

When I say Reaper default theme is "not professional" I just want to simplify reply without going into terminology of why Skeuomorphism is dead... and what is wrong with Color palate.

I'll just quote one article that is very "soft" on behalf of Reaper's default theme... but I'll link more articles if you are interested.

"Pro Tools offers an arguably cleaner and polished interface. Of course, Reaper’s UI can be tweaked, but this requires a time investment or tracking down a pleasing theme."
- published 2019
https://blog.soundsnap.com/2019/03/1...ing-to-reaper/

imagine how bad design is, if it's compared to Pro Tools (DAW that barely make any updates and restricted to it's core).


If you still not convinced, google "Golden Rules of UI Design"
One of the first items you will always see is - consistency.


And now, let me finish with analogy without pointing fingers. I hope you can genuinely answer this question.


Would you rather work with a greasy keyboard, sticky mouse, with a crack on your display and a desk full of garbage or a clean and tidy environment?

In both cases you can create quality music/sfx/etc, your functionality is "not affected" by thous factors, yet I hope you start to understand where I'm going.

On the subject of "subjectivity" I want to add this, since in all communities there are some filthy ppl...

There are rules in design of why design looks bad and good... stuff like color wheel, golden ratio, rule of thirds and many more were created to aid ppl with poor/unconventional taste.

Default theme should not be treated just as abomination that you can always "tweak" and change. It should be pleasurable for at least %70 of users (I'm very generous with percentage).

In it's current form all rules of design are broken or became outdated (yes, design can be outdated!)

Now imagine client delivered you a dull mix where his/her vocals clearly sounds boxy and instead of adjusting EQ to remove the problem you crank up +4db on ~400HZ.

Can you do that? Yes. Is it subjective? Yes.
Would client or majority of other listeners like it? No.
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Don't forget it's default because that's what people will see when they first run Reaper. And no, nobody cares about how "vanilla" it was or it would be. They want consistency and reliability.


tl;td

If White Tie is tired developing new theme, then it should be addressed/delegated. Because the only reason why we don't see any progress is because "that'd be more work"
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Old 05-01-2019, 12:20 AM   #291
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Should probably give it a try on my desktop if I have some time.
Please do if you can. Otherwise we're going to have to wait for someone else to repeat the problem and then I can report it as a possible Reaper bug. Once I've told Reaper to draw stuff, it really is out of my hands.
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Old 05-01-2019, 12:24 AM   #292
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inarisound, I acknowledge that you don't like the theme and that you think you know more about design than me. You've said your piece, now let it go.
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Old 05-01-2019, 12:29 AM   #293
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Well, WT, if you think you know the most about design and there's not a forum member that could possibly know more about you on the topic, we have a problem. And a serious one, which could negatively impact Reaper for the future. There hasn't ever been a case where Reaper's default theme was PRAISED for its looks and efficiency and usability in reviews, I wonder why. Are you gonna say all reviewers are blind and clueless, now?
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Old 05-01-2019, 12:47 AM   #294
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inarisound, I acknowledge that you don't like the theme and that you think you know more about design than me. You've said your piece, now let it go.
Acknowledgement dose not equal to recognition (of the issue).

I really do care for the next design, otherwise I would not post here walls of text trying to give some constructive input.


anyway I'm not going to contribute any longer, if that will please your ego to hear only "Ow, common guys I've used V1 theme and it's the best... don't see what's the problem now with V5/6 theme! " so be it.

Surrounding yourself with like-minded ppl will stop you from seeing full picture.


I hope you will reconsider your attitude towards new theme.


updating engine will not fix sinking ship.
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Old 05-01-2019, 12:52 AM   #295
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y ya que estamos... a mi me gustaría que tuviera una herramienta como el variaudio de cubase
Wrong thread, and btw there is ReaTune that does the same thing...
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Old 05-01-2019, 12:52 AM   #296
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And then there are those of us (ahem) who aren't so strongly offended by button A looking like glass and knob B looking like aluminum...perhaps some of us even find value in that, so that the different elements are quickly distinguishable at a glance. (No, we don't ALL ask for "consistency" such as you do.)
You obviously don't understand principles. It's not wrong if one or two elements are different - then as you said it does its work. Wrong is if ANY element is different kind. Then it is beyond discussion who likes it. It just plain wrong design decision. Ask anybody who works with functional graphics (GUI designers, advertisements creators etc).

We are not talking about tastes. We are pointing to issues which are supported by knowledge and science. It's not about '3d vs flat vs metro' etc. It's about functional consistency which translates to usability.

Personally I don't care how WT's theme will look like. But if there is an opportunity, a community should do the best to go for most functional, professional looking, up-to-date (aka modern for nowadays) look, most readable/functional (considering newcomers) default theme for Reaper.
If some one loves themes like discussed one, he can always choose it from alternative themes, isn't it?
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:12 AM   #297
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Personally, I like TCP and MCP design of Reaper, I prefer it over any other DAW.

I used Cubase, and it is not pleasing to me, too toy-ish. Ableton is too flat for me on tracks, but fxs I like. Studio One is too cluttered for me, too dark too. Reason is like a circus to me, I hate using it.

Reaper TCP v5 was really perfect for me, clean and easy on the eyes. I do not wish v6 to be much different. And certainly I do not want it to look anything like Imperial theme, too hardware-ish for me.

If anything, I would invest in design of Reaper plugins, especially JSFX. To me it seems that when reviewers speak about Reaper being ugly and such, they mostly refer to look of plugins and possibly some windows. JSFX really stick out of theme, and really look dated.

I remember in Cubase, when they changed GUI of Magneto tape plug, suddenly people started saying that it sounds better. It was the same damn plugin code, just new look, but people considered it better sounding and more professional.

So, imo, if anything, re-design should go mostly to Reaper plugins. Just make them look more like TCP/MCP theme, so they fit better the overall design.

Last edited by sonicowl; 05-01-2019 at 01:42 AM.
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:12 AM   #298
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Please read the first post.
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:27 AM   #299
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WT, thanks for all the efforts!
BTW is there also a new incarnation of Imperial on the way?


Regarding the whole design discussing:
First post clears everything up.
I just want to encourage you to make the theme as easy as possible mod-able. So that upcoming theme designers have the best start. This is the thing I am excited about.
Honestly, it triggers my personal need to do some interface designing again just beautifully. All the elements which I don't like are in a way an inspiration to just try doing it better. I am looking forward to the final release.
Will this line up with the release of Reaper 6 or is this in a way independent?
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:33 AM   #300
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WT, thanks for all the efforts!
BTW is there also a new incarnation of Imperial on the way?
It can't be a default one, because Imperial looks nice only on big monitors.
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:52 AM   #301
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Please read the first post.

I re-read first post, but missed any reference to jsfx and stock vst's. As I said, jsfx and stock vst stick out of theme design. Could be that jsfx and stock vst are the reason that reviewers are critical towards Reaper looks, as mentioned by previous commenter.

Last edited by sonicowl; 05-01-2019 at 01:59 AM.
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:56 AM   #302
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I re-read first post
Not you, sorry, we posted at the same time

All the un-themable elements of Reaper remain un-themable. I would love them to be themable, but that is a Reaper feature request, so not something I can do anything about I'm afraid.
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:57 AM   #303
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1. I disagree with you on this. I think most of THEM are pretty damn ugly. Which leads me to believe this is a subjective topic. Not an objective one.

2. Why do you guys keep using words like "ugly", "not professional" and "amateur" as some type of persuasive technique? Does this work in your other relationships? Seriously?

The reason people ask for constructive criticism is because that's the type of information they can use. And more importantly, the type of information they will respond to.

WT is asking the community for their help because he respects the community and thinks you all can help him and REAPER be better. Or in this case, look and function correctly regarding the theme.

As someone who started with Cubase, when it started, and Logic when it started, I agree with you Kenny, they're not pretty at all, and they've been at it a longer time than most. You're quite right, imho, this is a subjective topic.

WT's been lot more polite about this than I would have been, had I built the default UIs over all these Reaper years instead of him.

And I'm with JP on this as well.

Vanilla is vanilla. For those who like their icecream more saturated/star trek/game of thrones/my little pony/pick one, you can enjoy many fine moments learning how to build themes to your own "professional" specifications. If you think it's not rocket science, you should have no problems.


Alex.
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:59 AM   #304
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It can't be a default one, because Imperial looks nice only on big monitors.

Yeah, I am aware of that. That's the reason I wrote "BTW". I was just curious. Hard times in this thread.
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:00 AM   #305
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I am a newbie in the Reaper community making a hard switch from FL and Ableton, which I have been using for the last 18 years. I chose Reaper finally because of its awesome functionality, endless capabilities and tremendous support from community members.

Please treat this as my humble opinion, which may sound debatable, but even in music, visual appearance is one of the key inspiring elements for producers. In a highly competitive market the first look, first visual perception is what either makes or fails to make a product likeable and popular among potential consumers.

Unfortunately, from the very first second of my interaction with Reaper (v5) I was a bit chilled with what I saw on the screen: 90s-stylish interface, awkward toolbar icon images, odd fonts and terribly outdated fx and action windows. Instead of making music I spent a lot of hours by just learning how to tweak the theme elements, etc.

Yes I know it's all a matter of taste and everyone has its own visual preferences. Reaper is amazing with its GUI customization possibilities, and I saw really impressive designs from WhiteTie, Blankfiles, cubic, Janne, etc.

As a compromise to these GUI debates may I humbly propose to add a couple other themes to a Default v6 theme into the final Reaper 6 product: I mean the alternative themes that could be elaborated both by WhiteTie and other designers, which then could be selected by the community votes here in Reaper forum?

Cheers to all and keep up doing tremendous work!
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:03 AM   #306
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Yeah, I am aware of that. That's the reason I wrote "BTW". I was just curious. Hard times in this thread.
I know, but read the thread name again
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:08 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
All the un-themable elements of Reaper remain un-themable. I would love them to be themable, but that is a Reaper feature request, so not something I can do anything about I'm afraid.


I was not aware of this FR, but it makes perfect sense, yes.
It is a shame though, you can work hard on theme to make it really nice, then user opens some stock plugins, and goes "ugh, so 90's..." Because default Reaper TCP/MCP look really nice to me, imo nothing 90's about it. But stock plugins stick out, and are often neglected just because of their looks. I bet if they looked more like a theme, suddenly they would "sound better" too...
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:16 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by inarisound View Post
Now let me clarify this thing for all "it's subjective, dude".

White Tie is a great contributor, I don't want to diminish his/her achievements, but there are times when you ether do your job properly or delegate it to someone who is more qualified/passionate for it.

When I say Reaper default theme is "not professional" I just want to simplify reply without going into terminology of why Skeuomorphism is dead... and what is wrong with Color palate.

I'll just quote one article that is very "soft" on behalf of Reaper's default theme... but I'll link more articles if you are interested.

"Pro Tools offers an arguably cleaner and polished interface. Of course, Reaper’s UI can be tweaked, but this requires a time investment or tracking down a pleasing theme."
- published 2019
https://blog.soundsnap.com/2019/03/1...ing-to-reaper/

imagine how bad design is, if it's compared to Pro Tools (DAW that barely make any updates and restricted to it's core).


If you still not convinced, google "Golden Rules of UI Design"
One of the first items you will always see is - consistency.


And now, let me finish with analogy without pointing fingers. I hope you can genuinely answer this question.


Would you rather work with a greasy keyboard, sticky mouse, with a crack on your display and a desk full of garbage or a clean and tidy environment?

In both cases you can create quality music/sfx/etc, your functionality is "not affected" by thous factors, yet I hope you start to understand where I'm going.

On the subject of "subjectivity" I want to add this, since in all communities there are some filthy ppl...

There are rules in design of why design looks bad and good... stuff like color wheel, golden ratio, rule of thirds and many more were created to aid ppl with poor/unconventional taste.

Default theme should not be treated just as abomination that you can always "tweak" and change. It should be pleasurable for at least %70 of users (I'm very generous with percentage).

In it's current form all rules of design are broken or became outdated (yes, design can be outdated!)

Now imagine client delivered you a dull mix where his/her vocals clearly sounds boxy and instead of adjusting EQ to remove the problem you crank up +4db on ~400HZ.

Can you do that? Yes. Is it subjective? Yes.
Would client or majority of other listeners like it? No.
_____________________________

Don't forget it's default because that's what people will see when they first run Reaper. And no, nobody cares about how "vanilla" it was or it would be. They want consistency and reliability.


tl;td

If White Tie is tired developing new theme, then it should be addressed/delegated. Because the only reason why we don't see any progress is because "that'd be more work"


So put up or shut up. Build a theme, and show us how it's done. Give us an example of your skills so we can decide for ourselves if we think you know what you're talking about, objectively.

Alex.
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:19 AM   #309
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I know, but read the thread name again

The biggest part of my post was on topic and had the goal to bring in something positive. And yet your pinpointing one off topic question out. Okay. Will you cite now all the other design related off topic posts in here too? Because then the thread page number almost doubles.
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:24 AM   #310
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So put up or shut up. Build a theme, and show us how it's done. Give us an example of your skills so we can decide for ourselves if we think you know what you're talking about, objectively.
He doesn't talk about himself. Check Blankfiles themes.
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:25 AM   #311
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The biggest part of my post was on topic and had the goal to bring in something positive. And yet your pinpointing one off topic question out. Okay. Will you cite now all the other design related off topic posts in here too? Because then the thread page number almost doubles.
You are right sir!
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:31 AM   #312
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So put up or shut up. Build a theme, and show us how it's done. Give us an example of your skills so we can decide for ourselves if we think you know what you're talking about, objectively.

Alex.
No need to be rude.
And obviously I don't need to be able to construct and build a car on my own to say that another one is not functional or contains outdated tech/design etc
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:36 AM   #313
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WT's been lot more polite about this than I would have been, had I built the default UIs over all these Reaper years instead of him.
Did anybody begs him for doing that that you turning it against users who give constructive criticism?
Correct me but WT is a part of community like you or me. I cannot see reasons to make him untouchable.
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:39 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
No need to be rude.
And obviously I don't need to be able to construct and build a car on my own to say that another one is not functional or contains outdated tech/design etc
Agreed! But here are some designers, too! Even White Tie has made united themes.
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:39 AM   #315
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Please download from the first post:

Version 1.03

- Fix to track name length adjustment
- Extended mixer and TCP index fonts smaller.
- Solid Mute and Solo on-states.
- No longer putting version number in theme file (broke parameter carry-over)
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:43 AM   #316
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someone likes Blankfiles's theme better, someone likes theme in protools DAW or logic DAW better and everyone knows best of all how it should be better =), no matter what WT will do, there's still will be 100 of disappointed/"know better" guys, after R6 will come out, there will be 100 of "right" default6 themes on the stash, lol. 8 pages already and most of it are whining or offensive comments.

About, that reviewers never praised Reaper's UI design is not fault of a theme itself, REAPER's UI/UX was always ugly, even if you wear Imperial theme on REAPER, you still use other windows and JSFX plugins, which ruin any theme's feel.
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:44 AM   #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Please download from the first post:
You can maybe link to the first post each time its updated for an easier access.
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:47 AM   #318
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The only thing that bothers me is that its pretty dark and I cannot use it more than few minutes it bothers my eyes. I generally have problem with dark, dark-gray backgrounds. TCP is fine but everything else just tires my eyes really fast so I cannot give any meaningful feedback except that. But thats just me so nevermind
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:49 AM   #319
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Solo defeat is broken

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Old 05-01-2019, 02:50 AM   #320
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Its becoming dreary for me to scroll through pages of design discussion to find a post where someone reported on something I need to work on. Let me say it again, join in if you know the tune:

I'm not going to do design by committee on the forum.

I am not going to be persuaded on this. If its not going to be persuasive then there is simply no reason for you to post it in this thread. Please, feel free to discuss it elsewhere.
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