Old 06-15-2020, 08:14 AM   #41
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This also looks cool.

https://electra.one/
Ok, now we're talking! That looks NICE!

Need to learn more about how it communicates with the displays but that's a very intriguing product.

Looks like a few were sold for 399GBP, which works out to about $500 USD at the current exchange rate, so the price is right. Velocity sensitive encoders, LCD (not OLED) displays, web editor for creating templates. If CSI could communicate with this device (and they can actually make some more of these), it'd be perhaps the ideal Reaper+CSI fx control surface.

Looks like MIDI 2.0 is their longterm goal for widespread two-way communication, which would be great whenver that actually becomes a reality.

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Old 06-15-2020, 02:29 PM   #42
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Ok, now we're talking! That looks NICE!

Need to learn more about how it communicates with the displays but that's a very intriguing product.

Looks like a few were sold for 399GBP, which works out to about $500 USD at the current exchange rate, so the price is right. Velocity sensitive encoders, LCD (not OLED) displays, web editor for creating templates. If CSI could communicate with this device (and they can actually make some more of these), it'd be perhaps the ideal Reaper+CSI fx control surface.

Looks like MIDI 2.0 is their longterm goal for widespread two-way communication, which would be great whenver that actually becomes a reality.
In the thread below this article, one of the devs talks about the API/SDK.

https://www.synthanatomy.com/2019/08...-software.html
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Old 06-15-2020, 02:39 PM   #43
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In the thread below this article, one of the devs talks about the API/SDK.

https://www.synthanatomy.com/2019/08...-software.html
Their FAQ currently says:

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Is there any documentation for MIDI implementation, API, or SDK?
Not yet, there will be! We are already preparing a GitHub repository where you will find all you need to start playing with Electra if you are a software developer.
Hope they follow through on that. We should petition them to send a unit to Geoff along with the SDK.
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Old 06-15-2020, 05:12 PM   #44
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Hope they follow through on that. We should petition them to send a unit to Geoff along with the SDK.
Sure, the more the merrier
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Old 06-15-2020, 08:34 PM   #45
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...it'd be perhaps the ideal Reaper+CSI fx control surface..
Much respect FB, but I love CSI for its agnostic approach. Each person will have a different “ideal” solution.
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Old 06-15-2020, 09:22 PM   #46
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Much respect FB, but I love CSI for its agnostic approach. Each person will have a different “ideal” solution.
I'm prone to excitement and occasional hyperbole.

That said, I'm all about continuous improvement. So even if I got my "ideal" setup, I'd see something cool or new elsewhere, or something I hadn't thought about originally, and I'd want a product that did that too. That's not abnormal I hope. Just tilting at windmills in a relentless quest for controller perfection. I guess that makes me a bit of a complainer too.
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Old 06-16-2020, 02:15 AM   #47
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I'm prone to excitement and occasional hyperbole.

That said, I'm all about continuous improvement. So even if I got my "ideal" setup, I'd see something cool or new elsewhere, or something I hadn't thought about originally, and I'd want a product that did that too. That's not abnormal I hope. Just tilting at windmills in a relentless quest for controller perfection. I guess that makes me a bit of a complainer too.
And the perfect CSI user -- CSI embraces the fact that change is inevitable
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Old 06-16-2020, 02:18 AM   #48
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It's more than the encoders, it's the hardware/firmware/software supporting them too.

Everyone seems to really like the MFT encoders, might pick one up, are they really that good ?
They've been reliable in the past three years.

Four banks, each encoder a push button as well, bunch of colours for the led light underneath each encoder, led ring modes, easily swappable encoder knobs(chroma caps for the win), custom firmwares so you can have up to four uniquely identifyable units and even an open source release of the firmware. USB B ports too, 90 degree cable included.

They're made for DJs, so that's where the sturdy construction comes from.

My favorite buttons are on the Novation Dicer. DJ gear too.
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Old 06-17-2020, 10:41 AM   #49
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OK guys, been talking to some developers/programmers/pcb board engineers. Looks like I'm going to take the plunge and try to create a controller. In the end, I think it might be financially prohibited for many as I plan to integrate a lot of higher end functions and features but we'll see where I land when it's all said and done.

It's a big financial commitment, but I think there is something missing out there and I believe this will fill that gap, plus I'm hoping to have bigger possibilities with it in the future.

Wish me luck.
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Old 06-17-2020, 11:01 AM   #50
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OK guys, been talking to some developers/programmers/pcb board engineers. Looks like I'm going to take the plunge and try to create a controller. In the end, I think it might be financially prohibited for many as I plan to integrate a lot of higher end functions and features but we'll see where I land when it's all said and done.

It's a big financial commitment, but I think there is something missing out there and I believe this will fill that gap, plus I'm hoping to have bigger possibilities with it in the future.

Wish me luck.
Good luck !!

Remember, nice tasteful BB King licks

The more dedicated stuff you put on, the less versatile the unit is
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Old 06-17-2020, 11:14 AM   #51
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Good luck !!

Remember, nice tasteful BB King licks

The more dedicated stuff you put on, the less versatile the unit is
Hahaha. Yes of course Geoff.

Please forgive me in advance as I will be leaning on you to ask some questions from time to time.
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Old 06-17-2020, 11:16 AM   #52
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OK guys, been talking to some developers/programmers/pcb board engineers. Looks like I'm going to take the plunge and try to create a controller. In the end, I think it might be financially prohibited for many as I plan to integrate a lot of higher end functions and features but we'll see where I land when it's all said and done.

It's a big financial commitment, but I think there is something missing out there and I believe this will fill that gap, plus I'm hoping to have bigger possibilities with it in the future.

Wish me luck.
Good luck! Definitely keep us posted. I may say things like $500 should be the target price, but when I do, I'm speaking more generally. I've got a good job, no kids, and as much job security as a person could reasonably expect to have nowadays, so I may be willing to splurge for a more high-end product if it really meets my needs.
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Old 06-17-2020, 11:30 AM   #53
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Good luck! Definitely keep us posted. I may say things like $500 should be the target price, but when I do, I'm speaking more generally. I've got a good job, no kids, and as much job security as a person could reasonably expect to have nowadays, so I may be willing to splurge for a more high-end product if it really meets my needs.
I completely agree Funkybot. I'm on the same boat. I think you are correct with the idea of $500-$550 being a sweet spot as far as price for mass consumption. But you also see some of those products that look like they were designed by Porsche or Apple and they go for a lot more and plenty of people buy them.

I guess, I've decided to go ahead with it because I want something better than what's out there. So I'm basically designing it for me. I know, big ego. hahaha. But I'm hoping that others will also want something better than what's available. I'm not wealthy, so I do hope I get a chance to sell some to recoup some of the initial investment, but we'll see. I also bet if it does go to mass production, it will certainly reduce the price dramatically.

If I can have what I want, it will look very similar to my last design where there will be 24 OLEDs and 24 encoders. Will want a circle of lights around the encoders and will also want the encoders to be push buttons and touch sensitive. I'd like them to be able to understand double push (not sure yet if that's a software thing or a hardware ability) and will also want the shift functionality by pressing down and twisting to do something different than regular twist. All enclosed in a nice metal solid case that feels sturdy.

What I'll be able to have at the end, we will see.
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Old 06-17-2020, 11:39 AM   #54
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If you ever need a non-technical sounding board or someone to run ideas by, a tester, someone to buy a prototype, anything like that, feel free to reach out and I'd be happy to help however I could.
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Old 06-17-2020, 11:50 AM   #55
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If you ever need a non-technical sounding board or someone to run ideas by, a tester, someone to buy a prototype, anything like that, feel free to reach out and I'd be happy to help however I could.
Thank you so very very much. This is very kind of you. I will certainly take you up on that if I need. I will try and keep asking questions on this thread to get ideas of what people want. I don't think I can think of everything that's needed, so other people chiming in will be helpful.

For example, one of my next assignments will be to create a number of graphics that will be displayed on the OLEDs. So I will come up with characters, character sizes (see how many rows we can get on the display while it's still legible) And the graphics that will be displayed. Whether dials (circles that grow when the value goes up) or bars. I know Reaper now has a way to show some of their native effects on a tiny window next to the track name. Would be awesome if I could get that same tiny display to show up right above the encoders. But not sure if that's possible.

But thank you again for that message.
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Old 06-17-2020, 03:42 PM   #56
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OK guys, been talking to some developers/programmers/pcb board engineers. Looks like I'm going to take the plunge and try to create a controller. In the end, I think it might be financially prohibited for many as I plan to integrate a lot of higher end functions and features but we'll see where I land when it's all said and done.

It's a big financial commitment, but I think there is something missing out there and I believe this will fill that gap, plus I'm hoping to have bigger possibilities with it in the future.

Wish me luck.
I'm still in and in the same boat. I'd pay for something that provides the level of functionality that you have been describing and looks/feels great. I don't have the technical knowledge (yet) but I'd love to be able to follow along if you would document the process as you go along. Maybe you could start a blog? It would be an awesome learning experience for me and I'd also be happy to chip in some cash if and when required. Best of luck!
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Old 06-17-2020, 03:51 PM   #57
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I'm still in and in the same boat. I'd pay for something that provides the level of functionality that you have been describing and looks/feels great. I don't have the technical knowledge (yet) but I'd love to be able to follow along if you would document the process as you go along. Maybe you could start a blog? It would be an awesome learning experience for me and I'd also be happy to chip in some cash if and when required. Best of luck!
Hi Pompeysie,

Thanks for the message. Actually, I don't have the knowledge to be able to create the circuits to handle all this, nor to program this, that is why I'm hiring an electrical engineer/programmer/etc... Speaking with a company tonight but I'm sure they will be too expensive for me. I texted with someone earlier that has worked on a midi device with LED light, Sensor faders (meaning, not mechanical ones) and has brought the project from concept to mass productions (which it is currently being made) This is not a company but a guy like myself, so less professional than a team, but sometimes that can work to my advantage as one guy is responsible for everything.

As far as starting a blog, it will most likely be here, as there are more people here that would interact with the project than if I set up my own site.
This won't be a product that you can build yourself, but rather something I put together by either creating the parts myself or commissioning others to make the parts as per my specs. Once I'm done and I see what the final number is to put out a small batch, I can reach out to people to see if they are interested in buying initial units.

After, if interest is high, I may do a Kickstarter campaign to be able to bring it to mass production and lower costs. But I'll have a better idea of what is being sold as there will be multiple working units. It will just be a matter of scaling it and lowering costs to see how low it can be done for.

edit: as far as learning and following along, I would provide a CSI capable MST and Zone file, and some sort of description as to how to customize it to your own of course.

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Old 06-17-2020, 05:42 PM   #58
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These just came in today. I got one more coming with a developer kit so I can play with them. Mostly will be looking to program the graphics to see what size they really are and if it looks good.



These are just placed on top of my iCon QCon Pro G2, above the encoders.
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Old 06-18-2020, 12:38 AM   #59
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Hi Pompeysie,

Thanks for the message. Actually, I don't have the knowledge to be able to create the circuits to handle all this, nor to program this, that is why I'm hiring an electrical engineer/programmer/etc... Speaking with a company tonight but I'm sure they will be too expensive for me. I texted with someone earlier that has worked on a midi device with LED light, Sensor faders (meaning, not mechanical ones) and has brought the project from concept to mass productions (which it is currently being made) This is not a company but a guy like myself, so less professional than a team, but sometimes that can work to my advantage as one guy is responsible for everything.

As far as starting a blog, it will most likely be here, as there are more people here that would interact with the project than if I set up my own site.
This won't be a product that you can build yourself, but rather something I put together by either creating the parts myself or commissioning others to make the parts as per my specs. Once I'm done and I see what the final number is to put out a small batch, I can reach out to people to see if they are interested in buying initial units.

After, if interest is high, I may do a Kickstarter campaign to be able to bring it to mass production and lower costs. But I'll have a better idea of what is being sold as there will be multiple working units. It will just be a matter of scaling it and lowering costs to see how low it can be done for.

edit: as far as learning and following along, I would provide a CSI capable MST and Zone file, and some sort of description as to how to customize it to your own of course.
Ah, got ya! Well I look forward to seeing your progress. Good luck.

Simon
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Old 06-18-2020, 12:39 AM   #60
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These just came in today. I got one more coming with a developer kit so I can play with them. Mostly will be looking to program the graphics to see what size they really are and if it looks good.



These are just placed on top of my iCon QCon Pro G2, above the encoders.
What dev kit are you going to use? Is Arduino an option for a basic build?

S
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Old 06-18-2020, 05:07 AM   #61
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Hi,

This is a great idea and I would love one. I've been on a quest for a Reaper controller for a long time, but have yet to find a perfect one.

I'm definitely in.



Here are some thoughts on ergonomics. You seem to be ommitting buttons, so might not be relevant now, but I've spent so much time and money on controllers over the years I feel I should impart it anyway.

Button quality is very important to me. I bought a push 2 full price to use with Jurgen's integration, but I sold it because I found the buttons horrible.
It made me realise what a good job NI do with Maschine.
The Maschine buttons have a satisfying click with not too much actuation force required, and they are embossed, so easy to hit. They have a small travel, but enough to feel satisfying.

The push 2 ones are recessed, so you can't really hit them, you have to press them, and the difficulty varies with the size of the button. The small ones below the knobs actually hurt my finger joints. The recessed nature and higher actuation force means you feel like you are stubbing your finger against them.

I sold that and got a push 1.
The push one has strange buttons, but they are slightly better. They still have too high an actuation force, but as they are not recessed you can hit them, so that makes it less like you are stubbing your fingers.
They are strangely wobbly though. The Maschine buttons can be pressed from any angle and give a similar response, more like pressing a key on a keyboard. The push 1 buttons really have to be pressed in the centre, or the button will rock, and possibly not register a click. They seem to have a longer travel, but in general are weirdly squishy, and not satisfying to me at all.

The console one buttons are ok. They require a slightly higher actuation force than the Maschine ones, but are not recessed and can be hit or tapped quite easily. They are hard as opposed to the slightly soft Maschine ones, but I can live with that. They are pretty much the same as the ones on the Novation Peak. I would prefer slightly less resistance, but they are definitely workable.

The BCR2000, which I'm sure many are familiar with, has similar buttons with slightly less resistance, but they are slightly inconsistent depending on where you press them. Also, they are unreliable, as the internal contacts drift over time, similar to some old mobile phone keypads. If there were a reliable hard button with the force of the bcr but the consistency of response across the whole surface, that would be a pretty good button.

In my experience, the Maschine buttons are as close to perfect as I've seen. They have a satisfying click, don't require too much force, and therefore don't fatigue my fingers. They can be any size and still react the same, as opposed to both push models which respond differently based on the size of the button.
Incidentally, I tried to buy some of the NI switches, with the intention of modding the push 2, but they wouldn't sell me any unfortunately.

On the subject of encoders.

The Maschine ones are pretty good in terms of feel. They aren't too stiff and move smoothly. I don't like the new caps they have with the mk3 model, but that's easily changed.
I prefer the led ring approach of the console 1 and the bcr to reading values on the screen. Both Push and Maschine use the screens to display values, but I find reading the rings on console one much more natural, and seems to use slightly less brainpower. Something about reading the numbers takes more energy out of me.
Obviously you need the screens to display the parameters, but I would still like rings to display values.


I haven't used the midi fighter twister unfortunately, but I like the look of the push encoders. Usually, push encoders can be difficult to push. For example the bcr2000, the knobs are narrow, tall and a bit wobbly, so pushing them quickly with a hit or tap is not comfortable and a bit unreliable. The midi fighter ones are wider and have a recessed top, so look like they would act as buttons more effectively.
Probably the best push encoder I have experience with is on the Traktor s8 loop and browse knobs. These can be hit quickly and are equally good as buttons and encoders, unsurprising as it's a performance controller, so speed and reliable feedback is important.
This encoder is also on the maschine mk 2 and jam models, but has unfortunately been retired in the mk3 for a slightly wobbly dpad/pushencoder part.

Anyway, I hope there is some use in these ramblings, and I'm excited to be a part of this. You should probably give Jurgen Mossgraber a nudge too, as he's done so much work on porting other controllers to Reaper with his DrivenByMoss plugin. I imagine he would have some useful insights.
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Old 06-18-2020, 06:08 AM   #62
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Another thing I should mention, so it doesn't seem like Maschine is perfect.

The generic parameter controls in Maschine and most other NI controllers have a problem in that they are only standard encoders, and have no buttons available for plugin parameters.
This means that if you have a parameter which is a bool, and not continuous, then you have to use an encoder turn to switch it. I really don't like this. It's not very intuitive, and you have to watch the screen to see it change rather than seeing a button light up.

Push encoders would solve this.
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Old 06-18-2020, 08:33 AM   #63
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What dev kit are you going to use? Is Arduino an option for a basic build?

S
A US supplier of OLEDs has their own developer kit. I can't remember which board they based their kit on but it is an Arduino one. I'll try to look for it if you are interested.
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Old 06-18-2020, 08:38 AM   #64
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Hi,

This is a great idea and I would love one. I've been on a quest for a Reaper controller for a long time, but have yet to find a perfect one.

I'm definitely in.



Here are some thoughts on ergonomics. You seem to be ommitting buttons, so might not be relevant now, but I've spent so much time and money on controllers over the years I feel I should impart it anyway.

Button quality is very important to me. I bought a push 2 full price to use with Jurgen's integration, but I sold it because I found the buttons horrible.
It made me realise what a good job NI do with Maschine.
The Maschine buttons have a satisfying click with not too much actuation force required, and they are embossed, so easy to hit. They have a small travel, but enough to feel satisfying.

The push 2 ones are recessed, so you can't really hit them, you have to press them, and the difficulty varies with the size of the button. The small ones below the knobs actually hurt my finger joints. The recessed nature and higher actuation force means you feel like you are stubbing your finger against them.

I sold that and got a push 1.
The push one has strange buttons, but they are slightly better. They still have too high an actuation force, but as they are not recessed you can hit them, so that makes it less like you are stubbing your fingers.
They are strangely wobbly though. The Maschine buttons can be pressed from any angle and give a similar response, more like pressing a key on a keyboard. The push 1 buttons really have to be pressed in the centre, or the button will rock, and possibly not register a click. They seem to have a longer travel, but in general are weirdly squishy, and not satisfying to me at all.

The console one buttons are ok. They require a slightly higher actuation force than the Maschine ones, but are not recessed and can be hit or tapped quite easily. They are hard as opposed to the slightly soft Maschine ones, but I can live with that. They are pretty much the same as the ones on the Novation Peak. I would prefer slightly less resistance, but they are definitely workable.

The BCR2000, which I'm sure many are familiar with, has similar buttons with slightly less resistance, but they are slightly inconsistent depending on where you press them. Also, they are unreliable, as the internal contacts drift over time, similar to some old mobile phone keypads. If there were a reliable hard button with the force of the bcr but the consistency of response across the whole surface, that would be a pretty good button.

In my experience, the Maschine buttons are as close to perfect as I've seen. They have a satisfying click, don't require too much force, and therefore don't fatigue my fingers. They can be any size and still react the same, as opposed to both push models which respond differently based on the size of the button.
Incidentally, I tried to buy some of the NI switches, with the intention of modding the push 2, but they wouldn't sell me any unfortunately.

On the subject of encoders.

The Maschine ones are pretty good in terms of feel. They aren't too stiff and move smoothly. I don't like the new caps they have with the mk3 model, but that's easily changed.
I prefer the led ring approach of the console 1 and the bcr to reading values on the screen. Both Push and Maschine use the screens to display values, but I find reading the rings on console one much more natural, and seems to use slightly less brainpower. Something about reading the numbers takes more energy out of me.
Obviously you need the screens to display the parameters, but I would still like rings to display values.


I haven't used the midi fighter twister unfortunately, but I like the look of the push encoders. Usually, push encoders can be difficult to push. For example the bcr2000, the knobs are narrow, tall and a bit wobbly, so pushing them quickly with a hit or tap is not comfortable and a bit unreliable. The midi fighter ones are wider and have a recessed top, so look like they would act as buttons more effectively.
Probably the best push encoder I have experience with is on the Traktor s8 loop and browse knobs. These can be hit quickly and are equally good as buttons and encoders, unsurprising as it's a performance controller, so speed and reliable feedback is important.
This encoder is also on the maschine mk 2 and jam models, but has unfortunately been retired in the mk3 for a slightly wobbly dpad/pushencoder part.

Anyway, I hope there is some use in these ramblings, and I'm excited to be a part of this. You should probably give Jurgen Mossgraber a nudge too, as he's done so much work on porting other controllers to Reaper with his DrivenByMoss plugin. I imagine he would have some useful insights.
Travesty,
This is all good info. Thank you so much for all the information. I may even go to a store (if they are open) and check out what you mean by feel. I have no way of knowing how some of the encoder feel like until I get them. I will have to get a few and see how they feel. I've been thinking about making the encoder touch sensitive so that may narrow down the available options. I'll do my best to find the best I can get my hands on.

As for buttons, my discussions with Geoff have convinced me that all encoders are a better option, as encoders can also be buttons. I am contemplating 3-4 buttons on the side (like the MFT has) that could tell CSI to change state for the entire controller.
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Old 06-18-2020, 08:57 AM   #65
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Encoders with built in buttons work great as long as there's visual feedback to the button state. The MFTwister has the LED ring around the encoder, but each encoder is also a button, and each button has an RGB LED too. This is great for communicating states in FX zones. Example: in my MFTwister setup, I have it setup so any FX that have a toggle-state show up as green/red for on/off. I also use dark blue to say “nothing mapped to this encoder,” but obviously a surface with OLED displays wouldn’t require that as you’d just label the mapping for each encoder on the display itself.

I’d caution against side buttons because they’re a pain in the ass for various reasons. It’s the only thing I don’t like about the MFTwister. You don’t want to push sideways on the surface because the surface is going to move. I don’t want to have to use two hands to hold it in place to press a button, or constantly have to adjust it’s position no the desk. Also, putting buttons on the side discourages people from buying multiple units and laying them out side by side and housing them in a custom enclosure (buy two, put em in a pretty wood box).

My advice for buttons would be have a few buttons on the top of the unit, but off to the side like you showed on prior renders. Like Geoff said, keep it simple: the buttons exist, what they do is send messages, let users figure out what they want to do with them.
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Old 06-18-2020, 09:54 AM   #66
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Yeah, have to say I don't like side buttons.

Why do the buttons have to be there at all, don't forget this is an encoder bank.

In previous discussions, we have been talking about this as one piece in a setup.

I still say the best bang for the buck buttons wise is the Novation Launchpad Mini mk3 -- full RGB control, meant to be beat on, inexpensive, etc.

Why try to do an inferior job of buttons on an encoder bank ?

Unless the thinking has changed, and this is a multipurpose device.

If so I disagree completely with the approach, but hey, that's just me, the CSI dude speaking

Modular functional blocks - fader packs, encoder blocks, switch matrices, etc., rule.

When the inevitable upgrades are necessary you can do them separately as needed, just like the old component stereos
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Old 06-18-2020, 07:27 PM   #67
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I’d caution against side buttons because they’re a pain in the ass for various reasons. It’s the only thing I don’t like about the MFTwister. You don’t want to push sideways on the surface because the surface is going to move. I don’t want to have to use two hands to hold it in place to press a button, or constantly have to adjust it’s position no the desk. Also, putting buttons on the side discourages people from buying multiple units and laying them out side by side and housing them in a custom enclosure (buy two, put em in a pretty wood box).

My advice for buttons would be have a few buttons on the top of the unit, but off to the side like you showed on prior renders. Like Geoff said, keep it simple: the buttons exist, what they do is send messages, let users figure out what they want to do with them.
Thank you for the suggestion. I will see what I can come up with.
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Old 06-18-2020, 07:31 PM   #68
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Yeah, have to say I don't like side buttons.

Why do the buttons have to be there at all, don't forget this is an encoder bank.

In previous discussions, we have been talking about this as one piece in a setup.

I still say the best bang for the buck buttons wise is the Novation Launchpad Mini mk3 -- full RGB control, meant to be beat on, inexpensive, etc.

Why try to do an inferior job of buttons on an encoder bank ?

Unless the thinking has changed, and this is a multipurpose device.

If so I disagree completely with the approach, but hey, that's just me, the CSI dude speaking

Modular functional blocks - fader packs, encoder blocks, switch matrices, etc., rule.

When the inevitable upgrades are necessary you can do them separately as needed, just like the old component stereos
I understand Geoff. Thanks for the suggestion. I get that this will be an encoder bank, but I might still put a few buttons. Not sure. I can see the benefit of people mapping all the encoders to parameters while still have 2-4 buttons to either go up and down the different FX applied to a track, or change behavior of entire unit to control volume only or pan only or back to FX. Again, I agree that these would be customized to whatever people want. If you don't want to use them, then people can just ignore them, but I'm thinking, at least now, it would be a nice feature. May Change my mind later.
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Old 06-19-2020, 03:59 AM   #69
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Devils advocate for side buttons.

I too saw no practical use for them until the past 18months, where i have used them to great effect on various gigs and product demos to change the entire mapping / layout in an instant.

Being able to move from set to set, or demo mode to demo mode with one button was very useful.

Doesn’t have to be on the side, but some form of “Mode / Banking” would be very useful.
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Old 06-19-2020, 04:21 AM   #70
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Ok, I admit I do get the "a few buttons" thing, just trying to push toward the best decision

Putting them on the sides makes it hard to stack units horizontally -- you end up covering the buttons.

Maybe put them on top/bottom ?
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Old 06-19-2020, 07:22 AM   #71
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By side buttons do we mean on the actual sides of the device? That sounds like a bad idea for a desktop device, you'll just push the device off the stand if it's on one. Makes sense for the midifighter twister, as it's designed to be held.
Or do we mean towards the sides of the top surface?

A few buttons in the corners to use as modifiers would still be useful I think. Particularly if you wanted a shift button for fine encoder movements. Like Console 1 has.
Though if all the encoders are push buttons then you won't need too many. Again, have to reference maschine, which is highly modifier based.

If the device is simply to control plugin parameters, then it's not necessary, but if it's going to be more of a multipurpose device with other functions like navigation or editing, then it would need some buttons. Though then you have the problem of showing what the buttons are assigned to.

Last edited by Travesty; 06-19-2020 at 07:52 AM.
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Old 06-19-2020, 07:24 AM   #72
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Along the bottom is the best in my experience, you get less arm strain that way, and you don't obscure the screens when reaching over. I've seen a few devices with shift buttons at the top, and it's not very ergonomic or practical.

For right handers, the bottom left corner is best for shift. That's where it is on all the maschine controllers, and console 1. BCR2000 and push has these on the right, which I find annoying.
So buttons in the lower corners or along the bottom are the most ergonomic in my opinion, at least for modifiers.

On the maschines, the most used buttons are closer to the bottom, with less used ones towards the top. This keeps reaching to a minimum, especially important on the mk3 so you don't block the screens.
On console one, the shift is at the bottom left, within easy reach.






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Old 06-19-2020, 09:12 AM   #73
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Yes, if you'er going to do buttons on the top-surface of the unit: along the bottom row or the right/left edges please. Not the top. And everyone agrees that the vertical sides of the unit are a bad place for buttons. The top can be awkward to get to in many setups, and the sides are just awful for reasons described here.
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Old 06-19-2020, 02:31 PM   #74
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Yes, if you'er going to do buttons on the top-surface of the unit: along the bottom row or the right/left edges please. Not the top. And everyone agrees that the vertical sides of the unit are a bad place for buttons. The top can be awkward to get to in many setups, and the sides are just awful for reasons described here.
Yeah, I got the hint, hahahah. I am looking to do some buttons along the bottom of the top surface of the unit. Not sure how many, 2-7? Not sure yet.

thanks for all the input everyone.

Another question:
I thinking having touch sensitive encoders would be better than having encoders which have a light on the knob. So, when you touch the encoder, you can select a parameter, or make the screen show something different, etc.
I like the idea of the encoder knob also having a color light to indicate something, but I think the touch sensitivity is more important. And unfortunately, I think it's one or the other. What does everyone think?
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Old 06-19-2020, 02:42 PM   #75
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Yeah, I got the hint, hahahah. I am looking to do some buttons along the bottom of the top surface of the unit. Not sure how many, 2-7? Not sure yet.

thanks for all the input everyone.

Another question:
I thinking having touch sensitive encoders would be better than having encoders which have a light on the knob. So, when you touch the encoder, you can select a parameter, or make the screen show something different, etc.
I like the idea of the encoder knob also having a color light to indicate something, but I think the touch sensitivity is more important. And unfortunately, I think it's one or the other. What does everyone think?
I agree go with touch.

I like the MCU/MFT 6 o'clock RGB light placement better anyway, you can light that up based on touch or anything else that you want.

You are doing those 6 o'clock RGBs as well as the other outer ring lights, yes ?
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Old 06-19-2020, 03:50 PM   #76
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I'm not sure I understand the touch vs. lights thing. Are we saying "have a ring around the encoder that shows values or have an encoder that knows when it's been touched like a touch-sensitive fader?"

If that's the difference, then my gut reaction is: show me the ring all day. It's helpful to glance at the unit, see a ring at full blast and visually know, "ok, that's the mix knob at 100%" without having to give it a second thought. But I'm opening to missing something obvious, What would be the benefit to touch sensitivity on an encoder? You say it can show different things if you touch it. Why would I want that? In my head, I want LEDs or OLEDS that just tell me what parameter is mapped, and maybe they show the value (so Dispplay Upper/Lower - or just 1 display that can update when the parameter is moved). The ring around the encoder showing the knob value is super helpful IMO.

And when I ask, "why would I want that..." I'm really asking. I might be missing an obvious use-case or just not thinking about some cool things that make the trade-off worth it.
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Old 06-19-2020, 05:09 PM   #77
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I'm not sure I understand the touch vs. lights thing. Are we saying "have a ring around the encoder that shows values or have an encoder that knows when it's been touched like a touch-sensitive fader?"

If that's the difference, then my gut reaction is: show me the ring all day. It's helpful to glance at the unit, see a ring at full blast and visually know, "ok, that's the mix knob at 100%" without having to give it a second thought. But I'm opening to missing something obvious, What would be the benefit to touch sensitivity on an encoder? You say it can show different things if you touch it. Why would I want that? In my head, I want LEDs or OLEDS that just tell me what parameter is mapped, and maybe they show the value (so Dispplay Upper/Lower - or just 1 display that can update when the parameter is moved). The ring around the encoder showing the knob value is super helpful IMO.

And when I ask, "why would I want that..." I'm really asking. I might be missing an obvious use-case or just not thinking about some cool things that make the trade-off worth it.
The ring of lights it's not what we are talking about. What we are talking about is the two options: 1)an encoder with a metal shaft that senses when a finger touches it or 2)an encoder with a clear plastic shaft which can glow different colors. So when you select the knob it would have some way to let the light through.

Unfortunately I can't do both. So, I think the touch sensitivity would be better.

If I understand it correctly, Geoff is also asking about whether the ring of lights around the encoder will have dots of light from about 8 o'clock to 4 o'clock but have a larger light that could be a different color from 5 o'clock to 7 o'clock?

Is this what you meant Geoff?
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Old 06-19-2020, 05:11 PM   #78
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The ring of lights it's not what we are talking about. We are talking saying the two options are 1)an encoder with a metal shaft that senses when a finger touches it or 2)an encoder with a clear plastic shaft which can glow different colors. So when you select the knob it would have some way to let the light through.

Unfortunately I can't do both. So, I think the touch sensitivity would be better.
Ah yes...thank you for clarifying. Would agree entirely.
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Old 06-19-2020, 05:19 PM   #79
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The ring of lights it's not what we are talking about. What we are talking about is the two options: 1)an encoder with a metal shaft that senses when a finger touches it or 2)an encoder with a clear plastic shaft which can glow different colors. So when you select the knob it would have some way to let the light through.

Unfortunately I can't do both. So, I think the touch sensitivity would be better.

If I understand it correctly, Geoff is also asking about whether the ring of lights around the encoder will have dots of light from about 8 o'clock to 4 o'clock but have a larger light that could be a different color from 5 o'clock to 7 o'clock?

Is this what you meant Geoff?
Yes, exactly, then you can do both if you want, you have Touch and you have a light you can use, AND you can use them for anything else you want too

The key (from my perspective) is separating input things from output things, that gives the most flexibility:

Input things:
Turn
Push
Touch

Output things:
Rings
RGB between 5 and 7 o'clock -- hey let's call it the "happy hour" RGB
Scribble strips
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Old 06-19-2020, 05:24 PM   #80
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What would be the benefit to touch sensitivity on an encoder?
The Artist units have touch sensitive encoders, you can use them to write automation without Reaper "grabbing" the automation after a period of no movement, just like you use touch sensitive faders.
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