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Old 12-05-2010, 08:17 AM   #41
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Just like our many answers spread here it is clear that the original question will always come up, and even it the question makes no sense, why not...

You meet someone playing in a band, he/she and the girls making the first bit of money (say 40 Euro/$ each of the band) for a gig. Someone tells you: you girls'nguys are talented, you should record a CD. Superb wonderful great outstanding myohmyjustwhatwethoughtourselves.

A lot of bands get a cracked e.g. Cubase. They won't ask what's "better". Add a few expensive plugins, record.

Some others go and buy the software they use. They might ask...
Maybe because after girls'nguys finish the record, some listeners find it sounds "dull". "Not up to the heroes of the genre".

Some who listen to the music will say "go and let your stuff master from some pro". 40$ each for a gig and actually BUYING the software makes this sentence still sound nice, but not necessarily helpful for a band of newcomers.
Next thing they might hear is "what did you record with?". And whereas they think about their lyrics, how many guitars or synths should be doubled, it is highly likely that they hear "no. not with *this* software" Doesn't cut it.
So, many ask, what are we, great talents and wizards on our instruments, lack? Cheerio, this is the second such questions come to mind. Might it be Reaper or Cubase?

I heard stories like those too often to actually wonder why people ask if some daws sound "more pro" or "better" like Reaper or whatever .
But I like the view of a musician whose name is not so important (meaning I have forgotten it^^). After I read a hundreds of threads how bad a Creative soundcard was, the much respected guy revealed in sounds on sounds or Computermusic he did all of his stuff with a humble soundblaster card.
He didn't mind that other cards were much better and his one the pure crap. He made music and had fun, and in his case he got rich .

You know, from time to time it is a bit funny to read our posts, mine as per usual always included, rightly stating a daw was a daw. And then we, the same people, raved on endlessly about "don't let friends use Creative" not so many moons ago, while not 5% of us would be able to find out which soundcard a great CD was recorded with, or how big the difference really is. It always feels to me like saying Buster Keaton had made bad films because there was no talk and it was black and white. And my great-grandmother who I never had the pleasure to meet (some german politicians preferred to let her kill before her time) is reported to have said: "listening to a grammophone is funny - after ten minutes you totally forget you don't sit in the opera house and listen to a live performing..."

Just an, admittedly a wee bit long, thought .
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:57 AM   #42
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Hopefully this has got it out of everyones system and we can drop this for another year or so. Feh.

I've used Sonar, Acid Pro, and Reaper and I can get the sound I want out of any of them. Cripes.. argh.. this BS over and over and over!

I'm going to get a beer, this kind of thread drives me to drink!
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Old 12-05-2010, 01:57 PM   #43
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Holy Fanboi Batman!
Hilarious picture, but I am not a Fanboi. Reaper is now 3rd on my messed-up work-flow list of DAWs I use. Reaper is, for the price, still entirely worth having for those random issues that it seems to blast through with ease when no other DAW can.

Quote:
you can spend 1 million bucks and there won't be a difference between the straight up audio quality of cubase and reaper.
Not in the straight storage/retrieval of data, but in audio playback within the DAW there can be differences. Realistically however it isn't going to affect anyone who has taken the time to load up reference tracks in getting used to their software/hardware setup.

Last edited by Veneteaou; 12-05-2010 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 12-05-2010, 02:54 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by pbk View Post
Yes.

"Studio One" <- has the "Studio" word in it. Sounds more professional.

"Reaper" <- Sounds rotten and dead to me.

Of course, your mileage may vary.
How about "Studio Reaper!"

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Old 12-05-2010, 04:11 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by vocalid View Post
Just think how good your projects will sound with White Tie's V4 Theme!!!

Actually, I like and use WT's default theme for Reaper 3 and I find that it does in some way have a "sound" of its own, even though I know that's not literally true. There's something about the way that the theme fades away to the background and doesn't call attention to itself, yet presents the controls in a clean and unobtrusive way that psychologically does contribute to a "sound."
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Old 12-05-2010, 04:35 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Klemperer View Post

... "listening to a grammophone is funny - after ten minutes you totally forget you don't sit in the opera house and listen to a live performing..."
Funny how that works.
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Old 12-05-2010, 08:51 PM   #47
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Not just that................confirmation/expectation bias and placebo can be a massive influence over what you perceive.

This is why I don't like overly ornate gui's, because vision dominates hearing, and it's all too easy to be fooled.......................
Double blind testing is the only way to go.
Neither the tester nor the subject knows what program is being used.

The big problem is matching levels and the pan laws.
The human ear/brain is extremely sensitive and even the smallest level difference will skew the test. People usually go for the loudest one.

Personally, I've watched this debate for many years and I have participated myself in some testing and I could never hear any difference that could not be explained away by testing methodology, gear set up or some other type of bias.

I'm not saying that there aren't people out there that can hear the difference, just that I have never.

If you think you hear a difference, and you can spot it in a statistically significant manner, I would check the gear and testing method before assuming it's the software itself. Also make sure you are comparing apples with apples (no pun intended) in that 64 bit engine vs 64 bit engine etc.
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Old 12-05-2010, 08:56 PM   #48
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Funny how that works.
How true.

I have Event ASP 8 monitors as my mains and KrK K-Rok's connected to a Samson amplifier as my NS-10 clones.

Listening to just average music, Xmas tunes at the moment, if I switch between them I can instantly hear how superior the ASP8's sound as the KrK are a little mid-range forward, less detailed imaging etc.

However, after 5 minutes of casual listening or so, I have to look at the button on my monitor controller to tell which one is playing.

Our auditory system adapts quite well.
Also these monitors are not "that" far apart in typical frequency range most music has.
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:00 PM   #49
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Here's what I'd like to know:

If it's so hard to tell or test for, then WFDDIM?

It would seem to be an amorphously insignificant factor in the final results of your toil in the fields of DAWdom.

What am I missing?
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:14 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by steveo42 View Post


However, after 5 minutes of casual listening or so, I have to look at the button on my monitor controller to tell which one is playing.

Our auditory system adapts quite well.
Of course!

I have NS-10s as my only out from my DAW.

Below them are two Altec Lansing computer speakers from over a decade ago, that connect to a subwoofer the size and weight of a cinder block. I keep the sub off. These are for a second computer on my network. At moderate volume, I'm often not sure whether I'm hearing them or the NS-10s. This often happens with links to You Tube etc which are as likely to be on one comp as another.

If people like what they're listening to, they'll like listening to it under presumably adverse conditions. (Not that you don't want to sound good and everything.)

Last edited by Marah Mag; 12-05-2010 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 12-05-2010, 10:28 PM   #51
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Of course!

I have NS-10s as my only out from my DAW.

Below them are two Altec Lansing computer speakers from over a decade ago, that connect to a subwoofer the size and weight of a cinder block. I keep the sub off. These are for a second computer on my network. At moderate volume, I'm often not sure whether I'm hearing them or the NS-10s. This often happens with links to You Tube etc which are as likely to be on one comp as another.

If people like what they're listening to, they'll like listening to it under presumably adverse conditions. (Not that you don't want to sound good and everything.)
Yep.
Yet when you tell this to people some will say you are nuts because there are clearly differences.
Yes there are but like you say if people like what they are listening to they will adapt.

BTW I used to have a set of Altec's back in the 70's.
They were those huge models with the "tangerine" plug.
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Old 12-05-2010, 10:40 PM   #52
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How about "Studio Reaper!"

SEA
Not bad.

I think Reaper 4 comes with an "Hyper Ultra Workstation Plus" tag, or something like that. Search the forums. It will instantly sound better just for its name, without any development effort from the Cockos team
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:10 AM   #53
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What am I missing?
You're missing nothing at all
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Old 12-07-2010, 03:45 AM   #54
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in terms of dsp, reaper makes fewer math errors by default.
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Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
you can spend 1 million bucks and there won't be a difference between the straight up audio quality of cubase and reaper.
jason, i disagree. eventually the errors will add up to something audible... and music fans
will say they "prefer vinyl"... and professional engineers will say they "prefer analog", even
though a soundblaster and any daw spec out better than a studer a800 with an ssl 4000g.

so what is going on? reaper makes fewer math errors. don't spit in the face of that fact if
it might be relevant. otherwise, what is the problem with digital? why do we still aspire
to emulate the past?
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Old 12-07-2010, 03:56 AM   #55
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Hilarious picture, but I am not a Fanboi. Reaper is now 3rd on my messed-up work-flow list of DAWs I use. Reaper is, for the price, still entirely worth having for those random issues that it seems to blast through with ease when no other DAW can.
I am though
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:34 AM   #56
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what is the problem with digital? why do we still aspire to emulate the past?
Does chicken taste better than chicken? Depends on the cook.

I think people just love a controversy.

Regards,

DB
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:37 AM   #57
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I think people just love a controversy.

Regards,

DB
You're WRONG about controversy! Now prove me wrong. Dare ya!

BTW, my grandmum is sexier than yours. (stands back to allow room for controversy)

P.S. Michigan State Spartans rule, Illinois sucks.
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Old 12-07-2010, 01:50 PM   #58
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Based on the above sentence he should be nulled from writing any sort of review!! Ever!!
Well, that too is subject to opinion as is my opinion, I guess....lol

Look, I just offer my opinions, when asked. I'm not a professional and I'll never claim to be one. I'm sure plenty of you guys here have done far better mixed and mad more money off or Reaper than I ever have or ever will Studio One.

I have played with both, setup countless machines for my clients using both platforms and I do mostly agree with the guy who said "overall they all sound the same".

The sound quality issue is my personal opinion, that's all and plenty on the Presonus forums understand that and either agree or disagree. I have plenty of videos and audio samples of my work. My claim that Studio One Sounds better subjective at best and I tried to qualify it by adding that the simple workflow in S1 is very much a big part because it allows me to get what I want to hear more quickly. Again, this is strictly my opinion.

When I think of what we have now, and what I had back in the 80's, it is staggering to see the amount of stuff we can do now and the quality of which we can do it.

Chances are, if you're using any DAW and your not getting a good sound, it has little to do with the DAW and everything to do with how your using it. Anyone should be able to get a good sound from DAW if they have good advice and trust their ears.

The push and pull going on now is mostly over features. My needs are so basic, if they added no other features to S1 now, I'd be just as happy. For me, it has everything I need to make my music and support a customer base.

Reaper has some things I'd like to see in S1 but overall, has some stuff I would never need for my work habits.

I may purchase Reaper just have it because the price is right. I have always felt Studio One was a priced a bit high for what it is at this point but having dropped the cash on Pro, I must admit I feel it was still money well spent.

Sorry to have offended anyone here with my remarks. It's all just one man's opinion and I promote it as such.

Since I don't want to drag my personal promotion over here and aggravate more people (lol), All my links are over at the Presonus forums so feel free to check out the videos and sound files.
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Old 12-07-2010, 01:54 PM   #59
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jason, i disagree. eventually the errors will add up to something audible...
maybe, but money is an irrelevancy in it.
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Old 12-07-2010, 02:00 PM   #60
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Does chicken taste better than chicken? Depends on the cook.

I think people just love a controversy.

Regards,

DB
This applies more than you know...lol
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Old 12-08-2010, 01:43 AM   #61
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"I think people just love a controversy."

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This applies more than you know...lol
Yeah, the good people here, they kinda do know, is whats funny.

We've seen all types from the "start a fire and leave" types to the "troll all the time and stay" types. The tolerance is what gains the guys around here the title of "good people". Because theres a few of them here, who have patience to no end and are literal beacons of good forum behavior and just good guy-to-guy etiquette. I see a picture of a few cats - we know who that is.

But they handle the controversy and its proponents very well. Once someone is armed with the clear cut knowledge that all DAW's null all sound the same, thats one good thing. If a person also knows what a red record button can do and has material they absolutely need to get put out in the world, if they can combine those two - the skies the limit and Reaper flies round trip non-stop everyday and never lands in Detroit.
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:05 AM   #62
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both DAWs are set up with the same options for dithering, pan law, etc, they will sound the same..

Careful there - dithering is done by applying an algorithm to the signal, so Reaper's dithering might sound totally different to (say) Studio1's dithering.
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:09 AM   #63
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Careful there - dithering is done by applying an algorithm to the signal, so Reaper's dithering might sound totally different to (say) Studio1's dithering.
If you can hear the dithering, something is wrong.
Thus, we come right back to 'they all sound the same'.
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:17 AM   #64
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"I think people just love a controversy."



Yeah, the good people here, they kinda do know, is whats funny.

We've seen all types from the "start a fire and leave" types to the "troll all the time and stay" types. The tolerance is what gains the guys around here the title of "good people". Because theres a few of them here, who have patience to no end and are literal beacons of good forum behavior and just good guy-to-guy etiquette. I see a picture of a few cats - we know who that is.

But they handle the controversy and its proponents very well. Once someone is armed with the clear cut knowledge that all DAW's null all sound the same, thats one good thing. If a person also knows what a red record button can do and has material they absolutely need to get put out in the world, if they can combine those two - the skies the limit and Reaper flies round trip non-stop everyday and never lands in Detroit.
Well, I won't post much here. Some may think I'm starting trouble and I don't work that way. I just heard my name came up here and thought I would try to clarify what I said. I'm no Pro and won't try to kid myself, or anyone else, that I am. I say the same thing in all my videos for S1. I only show the things I do and not what I think is the way everyone should do it. That's up to the individual, not me.

It's all about making music.
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:51 AM   #65
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Well, I won't post much here. Some may think I'm starting trouble and I don't work that way. I just heard my name came up here and thought I would try to clarify what I said. I'm no Pro and won't try to kid myself, or anyone else, that I am. I say the same thing in all my videos for S1. I only show the things I do and not what I think is the way everyone should do it. That's up to the individual, not me.

It's all about making music.
I think people see your heart Muzic and I don't believe you were trying start any wars etc., you gave your opinion and each is entitle to having one

For me I just want truth. That's why I started this thread. Does S1 sound better than Reaper? IF so... I want the best sound. Don't we all?

You mentioned on the thread I started "Studio One or Reaper?" on the PreSonus forum that "a few Pro reviews say that Studio One has a much better sound overall and mixes just sound bigger and more clear". So I just wanted to know if this was actually true. I mean... if some pro reviews say it does then why does it sound better?

And what does "sound better" mean exactly? Is it the sound engine or plugs? I know people say that Samplitude sounds better that's why it's used more for mastering than other daws. Does it? Since all daws "Null" and sound the same then once must concur that it's either:

A. The plugs or

B. The Pilot using the plugs.

Does tape sound better than digital? Perhaps. Depends on what is better. I do like the warmth of analog gear. That's why guitarist are always striving for the best amp, mic, speakers, cabs to get "Their Sound" and really do not like modeling even though the Axe FX is pretty darn close they say.

In the end it all depends on what you like and what you achieve with the tools you have and the sound you are going for.

SEA
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:53 AM   #66
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It's all about making music.
What's that song I hear in the distance? Kumbaya?
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:57 AM   #67
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It's all about making music.
Totally agree. That is the main thing and enjoying music making to the M@X :-)
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:57 AM   #68
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What's that song I hear in the distance? Kumbaya?
I think it's "All I Want For Christmas Is My 2 Front Daws"
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:37 AM   #69
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If you can hear the dithering, something is wrong.

This, sir, is not perfectly correct, I think. Dithering adds something, so you might be able to hear it. The less you hear it, the better the algorithm is. But I wouldn't call slightly audible algorithms 'wrong'. That's a bit like saying 'if you can hear the compression, then something is wrong' or even 'if you can hear the microphone-amplifier, then something is wrong.
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Old 12-08-2010, 04:05 AM   #70
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I think it's "All I Want For Christmas Is My 2 Front Daws"
And a brand new Agile AL 3100 double bound inlay Les Paul copy! I got one of these today and I swear it's a Les Paul.

Last edited by 70srocker; 12-08-2010 at 04:06 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 12-08-2010, 05:19 AM   #71
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And a brand new Agile AL 3100 double bound inlay Les Paul copy! I got one of these today and I swear it's a Les Paul.
Yes! Agile are great guitars!
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Old 12-08-2010, 06:34 AM   #72
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Funny how that works.
Yes, and I know that special scenario only from tales, but older people swear they saw even older people besides themselves for joy, listening to some grammophone... For sure this worked only because there was nobody in the next room with some nowadays 4000 Euro equipment in xyz surround, sure. Still...
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Old 12-08-2010, 07:11 AM   #73
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This, sir, is not perfectly correct, I think. Dithering adds something, so you might be able to hear it. The less you hear it, the better the algorithm is. But I wouldn't call slightly audible algorithms 'wrong'. That's a bit like saying 'if you can hear the compression, then something is wrong' or even 'if you can hear the microphone-amplifier, then something is wrong.
O.o

Oh no! Hide the children! Get my gun! "Can you hear dithering" topics in forums have literally cracked parts of the Earths crust already, lol.

We'll step softly away from that one.
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Old 12-08-2010, 07:21 AM   #74
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As a newer Reaper user (since May '10), none of this matters to me. I'll never use another DAW again, fwiw. There's absolutely no need for me.

2 cents. ymmv, and arseholes in the mirror are closer than they appear.
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Old 12-08-2010, 08:56 AM   #75
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O.o

Oh no! Hide the children! Get my gun! "Can you hear dithering" topics in forums have literally cracked parts of the Earths crust already, lol.

We'll step softly away from that one.

not making just friends with that, I'm afraid, since one of Reaper's developers sells a dither plugin...


Quote:
God’s Own Dither. A breakthrough adaptive algorithm reacts in real-time to the signal audio to preserve the maximum possible dynamic range at any bit depth. Select a dither color and dial in psychoacoustic noise shaping power to choose exactly the right hardness or softness for your final renders.

so what Schwa wrote there is all bollocks, yes?
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:17 AM   #76
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EVIDENCE: DAWs DO sound different !

The versions are somewhat outdated, but you get the idea.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:34 AM   #77
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EVIDENCE: DAWs DO sound different !

The versions are somewhat outdated, but you get the idea.
do you still have the program or a link to one that does this? the link in the original thread is broken. thanks.
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Old 12-08-2010, 11:58 AM   #78
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do you still have the program or a link to one that does this? the link in the original thread is broken. thanks.
U got a PM.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:53 PM   #79
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not making just friends with that, I'm afraid, since one of Reaper's developers sells a dither plugin...





so what Schwa wrote there is all bollocks, yes?
Im not making any friends?

Wow. Nothing surprises me with you.

It was very much a joke. EDIT: Ill edit this down now because no one here needs the vibes. Most to the point, theres no need to be so hard to get along with, Jens.

Ya do know Jens - Im sure Schwa and everyone else here knows that I was in NO way trying for an insult, nor was I even thinking of anyone in particular. I swear - its like High School with you. Youre even trying to "tattle" on me and get me in some kind of trouble with one of the very respected members around here as well as drag him into your nonsense. Err, Jens - he knows how much I like him and im sure he also knows how crazy those talks can get. I think youre making yourself look foolish by harassing me like this.

I really wish I didnt have to say anything, but it certainly was no insult to anyone - simply the wrong person to try and joke around with. Apologies to others.

Last edited by cricket; 12-09-2010 at 02:49 AM.
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Old 12-08-2010, 11:15 PM   #80
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This, sir, is not perfectly correct, I think. Dithering adds something, so you might be able to hear it. The less you hear it, the better the algorithm is. But I wouldn't call slightly audible algorithms 'wrong'. That's a bit like saying 'if you can hear the compression, then something is wrong' or even 'if you can hear the microphone-amplifier, then something is wrong.
I would agree with this, and had the same reaction when I first read the original comment.

It's not a question of if you can "hear" it, but does it make a difference in what you hear, and is that difference a positive one.

That doesn't apply just to dither (which to be honest, I know little about), but to any processing you apply. It's similar to the conventional rules of thumb about reverb: turn it up until you can just hear it, then back it down a bit; when you bypass it, what if anything happens to the sound?

(PS. I'm not taking sides in any ongoing hostilities here. Just commenting on the idea contained in the quote. Thanks.)
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