Old 09-28-2022, 07:27 AM   #1
feedbackloop
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Default Distorted guitars sound phasey

I recorded lots of guitar tracks from a Marshall MG 100 watt head + a 4x12 cabinet.

Used just an sm58 as microphone, straight to one speaker.

It doesn't matter if I record a distortion pedal thru the clean channel or I use the distortion of the head, my tracks sound phasey during guitar chords.

The room is no reflecting (lots of absorbers, it is a practice space).

I'm starting to think it is something guitar related.

That phasey effect is located in the 1 KHz - 1.5 KHz zone.

Does anyone ever experienced the same effect?
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Old 09-28-2022, 11:26 AM   #2
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If you record a bunch of the same parts with the same sound, yea you'll have that. It's just like if you duplicate a sound and move it a little, they two will have a bunch of null points.

Trick is to use a different guitar/amp. Then you build up the sound with different waveforms, instead of very similar ones, which can start to produce that unpleasant comb filtering.

You can also try panning the guitars away from each other. Many many recordings feature double tracked guitars, hard-panned L and R.

Another thing to try is to overdub a part with a similar part, but in a higher register. This lends to nice big stereo sound with less risk of phasing and less need for lots of overdubs.
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Old 09-28-2022, 11:41 AM   #3
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If you record a bunch of the same parts with the same sound, yea you'll have that. It's just like if you duplicate a sound and move it a little, they two will have a bunch of null points.

Trick is to use a different guitar/amp. Then you build up the sound with different waveforms, instead of very similar ones, which can start to produce that unpleasant comb filtering.

You can also try panning the guitars away from each other. Many many recordings feature double tracked guitars, hard-panned L and R.

Another thing to try is to overdub a part with a similar part, but in a higher register. This lends to nice big stereo sound with less risk of phasing and less need for lots of overdubs.
Nope. I'm hearing that strange phasy distortion on single tracks recorded by one dynamic mic straight to one speaker.

I don't know where to start. Maybe guitar intonation is making strange artifacts playing distorted chords (beats for example)
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Old 09-28-2022, 11:48 AM   #4
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My guess: it's just the cab. Some cabs, combined with distorted signals, indeed sound hollow/phasey. Especially Orange are among the very weird ones, but they may sound "right" in the context of a mix. Marshall totally depends on the head (I don't know the MG, sorry).

Where ‒ if you remember ‒ exactly did you point the mic at? Most forgiving probably would be the edge of the cone, but again: if the overall tone of the guitar/amp doesn't play right with the loudspeaker, there's nothing you can do.
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Old 09-28-2022, 11:54 AM   #5
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Nope. I'm hearing that strange phasy distortion on single tracks recorded by one dynamic mic straight to one speaker.
Seriously? And only once you've recorded it? I wonder if one of the speakers is wired opposite of the other ones? Is that even a thing? If your amp has variable impedance, could you disconnect all but one speaker?
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Old 09-28-2022, 02:01 PM   #6
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I don't know where to start. Maybe guitar intonation is making strange artifacts playing distorted chords (beats for example)
Probably best if you post a sample we can hear.

Based your comment above though, assuming it is intonated properly, if it is making beats/out of tune sounds on the Low E and A strings during a power chord for example, especially 5th fret and above, the pickups are too high and pulling the larger strings out of tune when you fret. Since we don't have a sample though, most of us are just guessing.
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Old 09-28-2022, 02:36 PM   #7
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My guess: it's just the cab. Some cabs, combined with distorted signals, indeed sound hollow/phasey. Especially Orange are among the very weird ones, but they may sound "right" in the context of a mix. Marshall totally depends on the head (I don't know the MG, sorry).

Where ‒ if you remember ‒ exactly did you point the mic at? Most forgiving probably would be the edge of the cone, but again: if the overall tone of the guitar/amp doesn't play right with the loudspeaker, there's nothing you can do.
I pointed the mic in different spots.

Usually near the border or straight to the center.

Result are the same.

Wobble sound during chords (power chords mostly)

Can you please describe me the kind of artifacts you met on those cabs?

I could live in peace knowing that sometimes the cab is the answer.

The phase relationship between the recorded speaker and the closest is also very interesting.

I'm assuming that reflections are very small because of the ambience (very absorbent, roof and ground too).
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Old 09-28-2022, 02:42 PM   #8
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Probably best if you post a sample we can hear.

Based your comment above though, assuming it is intonated properly, if it is making beats/out of tune sounds on the Low E and A strings during a power chord for example, especially 5th fret and above, the pickups are too high and pulling the larger strings out of tune when you fret. Since we don't have a sample though, most of us are just guessing.
Here are the samples.

Focus on the transitions to the chords.

I hear a wobble digital-like sound.

Raw tracks - no processing.


https://www.4shared.com/folder/HkGdyoOZ/_online.html
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Old 09-28-2022, 04:40 PM   #9
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Well they sound like normal guitar tracks to me. Whatever you're hearing, I doubt it's going to matter in a mix.
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Old 09-28-2022, 05:31 PM   #10
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One other thing about this...

That kind of gain/distortion is just going to sound kinda "Smeared..." on chords just because it is baked into that cake.

Never mind if it is a "Boosted..." sort of a pickup running into that sound.

That said, it can just be that kind of gain.

Even the "Pedal..." distortion on the My Bloody Valentine record Loveless does not exactly sound like really focused. It's more along the line of what I hear in the clips you posted.
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Old 09-29-2022, 02:29 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by feedbackloop View Post
I pointed the mic in different spots.
Usually near the border or straight to the center.
Result are the same.
Wobble sound during chords (power chords mostly)
Can you please describe me the kind of artifacts you met on those cabs?
I could live in peace knowing that sometimes the cab is the answer.
The phase relationship between the recorded speaker and the closest is also very interesting.
I'm assuming that reflections are very small because of the ambience (very absorbent, roof and ground too).
Re: cabs - your example doesn't sound like the effect I experienced with "mismatched" amps and cabs. The artifacts I'm referring to are probably much closer related to "contradictory/opposed voicings" of amp/distortion timbre and the range and sweet spots of particular speakers and cabinets. "Hollow" is what I usually use for a term. Yours isn't.

That said: as others also pointed out, your tone is not phasey to my ears. I hear a buildup in the bass/low mids (can't download and analyze, I guess around 180-220Hz), which might be caused by a reflecting boundary, most likely the floor?* Could as well be your settings if the room is not as neutral as you think it is.
What does it sound like if you really stick the mic as close to the grill as possible, upper pair of speakers (and remove the mic basket with a 58)?

* I totally get that the tone is supposed to be somewhat bassy, but your recording is nothing you couldn't EQ the way you want it in a mix. It needs - for my taste at least - some definition in the presence area and a tighter, not less, bottom end. Maybe also a slight boost in the "meat mids".
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Old 09-29-2022, 05:00 AM   #12
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Thank you all for your answers.

I don't remember the clients setups they used, but I'm pretty sure the gain was cranked up at max - both stomp or amp.

However I still hear the pashiness.

I'll try to describe what I'm hearing last time, in case someone is going to recognize it: it's like a second sound summed to the guitar one during chords that seems robotic, making a "wuoaah", in a wah pedal fashion I guess.

I have other samples where I recorded the same amp whit different dynamic mics, different speakers and also one with the sm58 without the basket.

I still hear the same phasey sound in different sauces.

I'm waiting to records other samples from other amps, but I'm starting to think that my ears are playing with me.
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Old 09-29-2022, 05:14 AM   #13
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I'll try to describe what I'm hearing last time, in case someone is going to recognize it: it's like a second sound summed to the guitar one during chords that seems robotic, making a "wuoaah", in a wah pedal fashion I guess.
So ... how are you listening back? This reminds me of aliasing artifacts or even an overdriven digital stage somewhere in the listening chain?
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Old 09-29-2022, 05:21 AM   #14
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So ... how are you listening back? This reminds me of aliasing artifacts or even an overdriven digital stage somewhere in the listening chain?
I'm re-opening the projects in the DAW.

However the tracks are unprocessed, just the sound coming from the mic.

I hear the effect just during chords.

Single notes, solos and other stuff sound ok.

I'm thinking that the constant between different guitars, players and distortions used is maybe the too hot gain.
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Old 09-29-2022, 05:38 AM   #15
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Could it be the cab resonating? Maybe the wood joins have loosened?
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Old 09-29-2022, 05:42 AM   #16
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Could it be the cab resonating? Maybe the wood joins have loosened?
It's not impossible.

But I must face the fact that I'm the only one hearing that thing, it could be anything.

However it sounds like an electric thing to me, like the two coils interfering (mic - speaker).

Need to do some new tests.
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Old 09-29-2022, 05:57 AM   #17
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I hear the effect just during chords.

Single notes, solos and other stuff sound ok.
With this much distortion any deviation from perfect tuning will result in audible beating between notes. I'm hardly golden eared but think your samples are very slightly off tune(enough to be very slightly dissonant).
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Old 09-29-2022, 06:03 AM   #18
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With this much distortion any deviation from perfect tuning will result in audible beating between notes. I'm hardly golden eared but think your samples are very slightly off tune(enough to be very slightly dissonant).
Thank you for the feedback.

That should be easy to investigate, also with an amp sim and a pair of headphones.

Must find a guitar tho.

Can you ear the artifacts I described in the other posts?

Last edited by feedbackloop; 09-29-2022 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 09-29-2022, 06:17 AM   #19
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I hear the bassy buildup beingmf is mentioning, aside of that, sounds like a normal guitar with a ton of distortion
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Old 09-29-2022, 09:15 AM   #20
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I hear the bassy buildup beingmf is mentioning, aside of that, sounds like a normal guitar with a ton of distortion
Well, I made a test with "not so well" intonated bass thru amp sim with lots of gain.

I played some chords in the upper octave trying to emulate a guitar and yes, I hear the same phasey sound I'm talking about.

So far, the major responsible seems to be guitar intonation.

Maybe all that energy in the upper harmonics is creating some kind of "beating war".
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Old 09-29-2022, 12:00 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feedbackloop View Post
I'm re-opening the projects in the DAW.
I meant: headphones (which ones? Amp?)? Monitor speakers? (which ones? Room treatment? Digital room correction - if so, which one?)

Quote:
I'm thinking that the constant between different guitars, players and distortions used is maybe the too hot gain
Yep, the excessive gain might be the culprit, especially when you combine non-buffered* distortion pedal(s) with a high-gain circuit.
* put the Boss tuner last in the chain!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeekat View Post
I'm hardly golden eared but think your samples are very slightly off tune(enough to be very slightly dissonant).
Yeah, right, I didn't know if that was intentional or not, but of course there's a chance that some weird modulation is happening between the strings which you interpret as "phasey".
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Old 09-29-2022, 02:14 PM   #22
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I meant: headphones (which ones? Amp?)? Monitor speakers? (which ones? Room treatment? Digital room correction - if so, which one?)
Long story short: I hear the same effect on every medium I use to listen to it.

Just less prominent on the phone speaker, but still present.
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Old 10-01-2022, 04:47 AM   #23
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slightly off tune
This
The only modulation I hear is the wobbling of sounds that aren't tuned exactly.
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Old 10-02-2022, 06:21 AM   #24
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This
The only modulation I hear is the wobbling of sounds that aren't tuned exactly.
Yep. I think that's the answer.

Listen to that guitar intro, the left guitar in particular

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlQCQ2YyUFU

It sounds exactly as my second sample.
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