Old 03-20-2012, 01:53 AM   #41
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how do you know they aren't making music?
I don't know for sure but I'd bet they are not making music (especially MIDI-based music) EVERY day of the week.

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Why use Reaper?
Good point.

REAPER is very stable on my PC plus it was is very affordable. REAPER is more customizable (menus, macros, etc) so it has much more potential to blow those other DAWs away. If the developers got serious about fixing the MIDI workflow problems that the users have pointed out, REAPER would be tough to beat.

I've been using REAPER since 2009, and I've invested so much time and energy into it that it's hard to switch to another host. Also, it would suck if I spent $800 on Ableton then the REAPER developers actually implemented these features/fixes tomorrow.

The other DAWs have their shortcomings too. For example, recording audio in FL Studio is very clumsy. I've tried Sonar, and it wasn't very stable. I'm currently trying Ableton even though I've heard it has stability issues.

I guess my frustration comes from seeing the new non-MIDI related features added when basic MIDI issues haven't been addressed. Sometimes I wonder if it's impossible to fix these things. For example, the MIDI editor zooming issue seems small but maybe it's impossible to fix.

Either way, I've started to slowly learn other DAWs so I can move away from REAPER. I'll never get so attached to another host again. LOL
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:18 AM   #42
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First an observation, then a suggestion.

The general issue of REAPER's, for want of a better expression, MIDI deficiencies comes up from time to time. Ideas are scattered across several threads, forums, FRs, etc. Some are rather vague, some very specific, most somewhere in between.

Would it make sense for those people who are most concerned about this to get together off forum, to identify and prioritize their main concerns amongst themselves, and then report back?

This is only an idea off the top of my head, but it might be helpful in putting some meat on the bones and more focus (lovely mixed metaphor ) on this discussion.
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:39 AM   #43
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First an observation, then a suggestion.

The general issue of REAPER's, for want of a better expression, MIDI deficiencies comes up from time to time. Ideas are scattered across several threads, forums, FRs, etc. Some are rather vague, some very specific, most somewhere in between.

Would it make sense for those people who are most concerned about this to get together off forum, to identify and prioritize their main concerns amongst themselves, and then report back?

This is only an idea off the top of my head, but it might be helpful in putting some meat on the bones and more focus (lovely mixed metaphor ) on this discussion.

If you have suggested it there must be some merit, but I'm not getting it. Why off forum? Why not just have a thread HERE devoted to well explained MIDI feature and tweak requests? (with the provisio that posters must explain clearly their needs and/or gripes)
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:07 AM   #44
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I gave up on Reaper midi side a long long time ago. It's very clear nothing is going to change.

Now that I think about it, I've never actually composed a full song in Reaper, unless it was all audio (classic rock band recording stuff). Actually, none of my colleagues nor friends who use Reaper have ever used it for anything else but mixing/mastering. They all switch to something else to actually create the content.

As soon as I even have to think about doing some midi work in Reaper I just give up immediately and switch to FL Studio. It's so ridiculously much better at the very simple things like selecting notes, having multiple midi clips visible at the same time in the same piano roll. Automation of midi CC's is much easier. Quantize is a complete joke in Reaper. Heck, even midi recording stuff in reaper is a pain as there is no proper midi filter feature to record exactly the type of midi that I need (please don't get me started on JS plugins!).

It's just all a complete mess really.

Luckily a lot of the other hosts make exporting audio for final mixdown quite easy, which I always do in Reaper because it is by far the best for this task.

I would really like a whole major release cycle be dedicated to workflow on the midi/pianoroll side.
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:09 AM   #45
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If you have suggested it there must be some merit, but I'm not getting it. Why off forum? Why not just have a thread HERE devoted to well explained MIDI feature and tweak requests? (with the provisio that posters must explain clearly their needs and/or gripes)
You haven't been a member of these forums nearly long enough to see all the requests over the years. There have been numerous, very detailed request posts with videos and extremely clear explanations as to why various features are needed!
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:10 AM   #46
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This is true. Some FRs are absolutely amazing in the level of detail, like ones by Airon. wow Really well thought out and thorough.

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You haven't been a member of these forums nearly long enough to see all the requests over the years. There have been numerous, very detailed request posts with videos and extremely clear explanations as to why various features are needed!
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:12 AM   #47
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the apologists and defenders need to step off, me thinks. Fact is, REAPERS MIDI is far from good, Automation is also whack. Im a devoted REAPERITE either way - and its cos of this i want things sorted out. I dont want to have to spread projects across DAWs.

Being asked to discuss off forum is stupid. Next thing this thread will be locked and deleted.

Another reason this place needs a dedicated MIDI forum.

Cos basically, all u old guitar strummers with a bit of Jamstix here n there just dont get it.

This is serious business
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:15 AM   #48
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The general issue of REAPER's, for want of a better expression, MIDI deficiencies comes up from time to time. Ideas are scattered across several threads, forums, FRs, etc. Some are rather vague, some very specific, most somewhere in between.
The midi concerns, ideas and FR's haven't been any more scattered nor vague than any other area of Reaper FR's. It's just that so many don't really care about this.

Perhaps we live in a day and age where everybody just makes very simple stuff? How many here actually compose complete pieces from scratch with full orchestra? Full drum programming, complex synth arrangements etc? My guess is, not that many.. and everybody who would do those things simply are not using Reaper for these tasks because it's virtually impossible not to go insane when trying to do these larger tasks with Reaper's current midi workflow and flaws! So it's kind of a catch 22 situation.

Of course we need to remember that Logic and Cubase both started out as pure midi sequencers and thus have several decades of improving the workflow and adding features. This should not be an excuse though. Perhaps none of the developers have any experience working with larger midi arrangements? Maybe they could try to collaborate with some film-score composers or such who use midi features extensively?
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:17 AM   #49
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Of course we need to remember that Logic and Cubase both started out as pure midi sequencers and thus have several decades of improving the workflow and adding features. This should not be an excuse though. Perhaps none of the developers have any experience working with larger midi arrangements? Maybe they could try to collaborate with some film-score composers or such who use midi features extensively?
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:58 AM   #50
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Another reason this place needs a dedicated MIDI forum.

This is serious business
yes it IS serious business if (as it used to for me) MIDI forms a significant part of how you make your living.
But actually there IS already a MIDI (and assorted other stuff) forum area that was started recently.
Just keep scrolling down and down and down and - there ya go!
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:06 AM   #51
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im sure this will totally make reaper the host they want it to be
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:11 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
Of course we need to remember that Logic and Cubase both started out as pure midi sequencers and thus have several decades of improving the workflow and adding features. This should not be an excuse though. Perhaps none of the developers have any experience working with larger midi arrangements? Maybe they could try to collaborate with some film-score composers or such who use midi features extensively?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:26 AM   #53
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The problem is everyone is making different music. For every specific kind of music some things are better than others. I like changes, but i've set the Reaper workflow perfect for my kind of music and my style of working and i don't want it to be reworked so that i will need to learn new method and reset everything from scratch (why if i find it extremly comfortable at the moment?). Everyone can said "let's rework this and that" for his OWN needs but it will affect the workflow of other people anyway. REAPER updates should be evolutionary, not revolutionary
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:33 AM   #54
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Sometimes you have to revolutionize to evolve.
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:35 AM   #55
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Sometimes you have to revolutionize to evolve.
Maybe, but again How to satisfly that peaceful users who are happy and don't want any revolutions?
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:40 AM   #56
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By providing options.
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:49 AM   #57
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By providing options.
i like that
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:54 AM   #58
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Any true Reaperite does.
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:44 AM   #59
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the apologists and defenders need to step off....

Cos basically, all u old guitar strummers with a bit of Jamstix here n there just dont get it.

This is serious business
I totally agree. I believe the developers read these forums but they seem to get the impression that things are OK on the MIDI side because the non-MIDI guys always defend the current state of MIDI. They seems to out number us 10 to 1. LOL
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:57 AM   #60
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I totally agree. I believe the developers read these forums but they seem to get the impression that things are OK on the MIDI side because the non-MIDI guys always defend the current state of MIDI. They seems to out number us 10 to 1. LOL
Im using MIDI a lot and i make serious big stuff for commercial projects! And i like Reapers MIDI...what am i doing wrong???
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:59 AM   #61
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Two Simple Fixes (ht Gofer)

1. cc should be chased per track rather than clip and...

2 midinotes should not be split by new takes

(while we're at it whenever a midi item is split across a note the tail of the note should be muted!! no-one wants all sustaining notes to attack at the item start!)

These are not new features - just things that don't work right now !
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Old 03-20-2012, 07:03 AM   #62
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Notice the number of views and replies to this thread in only a few days, compared to all other threads.
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Old 03-20-2012, 07:07 AM   #63
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My only few requests:

1. Would be nice if MIDI editor automaticaly change contents depending on selected item, as i work in 3-monitor environment and one of them is always for MIDI editor.

2. Remember last used zoom/stable zooming

*selfish P.S.* Making slot based Fx system is more important because saving channel strip presets is the pain in the ass now!!
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Old 03-20-2012, 07:17 AM   #64
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(while we're at it whenever a midi item is split across a note the tail of the note should be muted!! no-one wants all sustaining notes to attack at the item start!)!
I have to disagree here, but only with the proposed result above which would be just as problematic I think. I'm trying to stay out of the midi discussions in general but this one thing is a biggie for me, what happens when clips get split and there are notes playing across the soon to be split point. My preference is below. The lower split clip sounds just like the upper clip.

Not having that happen (when you go to split and arrange) plays havoc with things like (for example) piano / strings / pads that are supposed to play a little over the next bar line. The option is typically "Cut at part end" or not. If optioned not to do that, notes play all the way through. In no case would I personally ever want one note turned into two notes on a clip split... mmv.

That note in the lower clip will play all the way through when /if that option is off...





Hope that helps.
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Old 03-20-2012, 07:28 AM   #65
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You haven't been a member of these forums nearly long enough to see all the requests over the years.
Yes I have, I recently changed my online handle to my initials and my avatar to be a bit more representative of where my musical tastes lie at the moment, not that it should matter - good ideas are good ideas, whether they come from someone here 5 minutes or 5 years.

Back to the point - MIDI is Reaper's weakest function by a long shot; end users and professional reviews point this out repeatedly. My own suggestions are primarily about improving Reaper's MIDI in basic and fundamental ways, which could give the most boost to the end user (and Reaper's MIDI reputation) for the least amount of effort or distraction from maintaining what Reaper reputedly does best - provide a virtual replacement for a tape deck, a razor, a mixer and lots of leads!
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Old 03-20-2012, 08:01 AM   #66
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@Lawrence - you're right - that would be even better
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Old 03-20-2012, 08:17 AM   #67
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Default Here is an idea.....

...suppose everyone who wanted midi in Reaper to change kicked in $5.00 and we pooled our money and sent it to Justin with a big note saying: Look, this is how serious we are, can you PLEASE address our midi concerns now?

Do you think the devs would sit up and take notice?
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Old 03-20-2012, 08:24 AM   #68
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@Lawrence - you're right - that would be even better
It works better for me, again mmv and all that. Chopping up midi clips on the timeline becomes really problematic unless your music is all quantized to the grid, notes and note lengths. Otherwise it all starts to change when you start chopping it up. Note lengths get shorter and/or some get split and duplicated and double-trigger as you mentioned above.

That option keeps the performance fully intact as relates to any notes that went "on" between the clip edges. It also means that you can manually trim back your recorded midi clips the same way, into neat square blocks, even if some note lengths go beyond the clip edge.

It makes arranging midi clips a lot easier, imo.
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Old 03-20-2012, 09:43 AM   #69
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...suppose everyone who wanted midi in Reaper to change kicked in $5.00 and we pooled our money and sent it to Justin with a big note saying: Look, this is how serious we are, can you PLEASE address our midi concerns now?

Do you think the devs would sit up and take notice?

Nah - popular folklore round here is that Justin already has more money than he knows what to do with.
Money is very seldom anyone's prime motivator, even when they think it is.

(wiki Hierarchy of Needs for further explanation)
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Old 03-20-2012, 09:44 AM   #70
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Brainwave!



O.K., Justin!

More MIDI love..........
















..............or the Llama gets it!







(giggle)
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:06 AM   #71
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Default You have missed my point.

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Nah - popular folklore round here is that Justin already has more money than he knows what to do with.
Money is very seldom anyone's prime motivator, even when they think it is.

(wiki Hierarchy of Needs for further explanation)
The point is not the money. The point is to show the devs how serious we'd like to be taken. The point is we are "putting our money where our mouth is", because we do not feel we are being heard.

Cash talks, and with it comes attention. Ask any politician!
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:13 AM   #72
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I love Reaper's open and flexible nature, but the MIDI needs some love.
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:28 AM   #73
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And all items in the same track editable at the same time. Like this

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Old 03-21-2012, 12:29 PM   #74
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No, I don't think the OP is.
no, not a troll. also i AM a light midi user. i don't do my majority of stuff with midi. it's only really for programming beats that i do. but i like to make many different styles of music, and some styles require midi.

it's just i really like how reaper does audio. it satisfies all my needs, and where it didn't i was able to customize it so that it did.

but i don't like to mess around, and i don't like to be limited by my DAW. my DAW is a tool to make music. i need it to be that. i need to facilitate the music making process and have it work quickly and efficiently. i need to be able to implement my ideas quickly and be such that it helps inspire me to get new ideas.

now, like i said, reaper does all that for me in the audio category. it is great. i love the folder windows, i love how the mixer works, how fx work, i love how track templates work. i love the simplicity and efficiency for working with audio.

i personally never or very seldom find myself wanting when working with audio.

but midi is often full of roadblocks for me. i'm doing something and find i need something and reaper can't deliver, nor does the customizeability of the piano roll section allow me to customize the problems away.

for me, that's a big issue. it doesn't matter if i don't use midi all the time. for the few times i need it, or want to use it, i need it to work well. now i don't use many midi controllers and all that, i'm not crazy into envelopes and CC instructions. i'm fairly basic with how i program midi. but still, reaper is not designed to be fluid and simple and address the way midi is used. it's kind of like if people who knew what midi was and all of its functionality and features and stuff like that, but never actually used midi, made it. you know what i mean? the features are there, velocity, midi CC, piano roll, but it's not configured to be as useful as a tool as it could be in how people would want to manipulate and control those features.

so for me, just focus on midi. the rest is pretty damn good. now, fix the bugs, ok, bugs are basic, and your DAW can't be buggy. but as for the rest, features wise, just make the midi awesome. can there be improvements in audio? ya, i'm sure there could be. are there FRs for audio? i'm sure quite a few. but the audio is quite good. very useable, and i prefer it to all other DAWs i've tried so far. just the midi is way behind. so for me, put all effort into midi. once that's much better, once it's more on par with the audio portion of reaper, then go with all the bells and whistles.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:54 PM   #75
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The problem is everyone is making different music. For every specific kind of music some things are better than others. I like changes, but i've set the Reaper workflow perfect for my kind of music and my style of working and i don't want it to be reworked so that i will need to learn new method and reset everything from scratch (why if i find it extremly comfortable at the moment?). Everyone can said "let's rework this and that" for his OWN needs but it will affect the workflow of other people anyway. REAPER updates should be evolutionary, not revolutionary
right, but this is the beauty of reaper and it's philosophy. it is very customizeable. it can be taylored to how any person uses it.

in programming there are sometimes limitations in how a pgrogram or portion of a program is designed which don't allow for more subtle features to implemented. so it can often be the case that if you want to add a relatively simple feature from a user standpoint, it requires alot of work from a programming standpoint. sometimes revolutionizing how something is made. now certainly, any sort of new functionality, in the spirit of reaper i think needs to always be an option, or almost always, which is a challenge programming wise.

but that something seems the same, but adds an extra option, or extra feature, and seems like evolution to the user, does not seem like it was a revolution, but from a programming standpoint it may have been.

i think the devs, know lots of people want midi improvements, and i think they want to give us those improvements as much as possible. but i think maybe many of them are limited by some way reaper is programmed. so i have a feeling that reaper needs a revolution in order to improve midi wise, but the revolution i agree should be perceived as an evolution.

this is why i think it should be nothing but midi. because i have a feeling the task is large and requires lots of work, and that the rest of reaper is good enough where the resources can be focused this way. or maybe my suspicions are wrong, but either way. i think primary focus should be on improving midi, almost all efforts, and it should not destroy the current workflows and habits people have.

that said. sometimes something is just better. and people will all complain about change and all say how much more worse it is, and be bitter some habits need to change, but they will quickly get over it and discover the new change is worth it because of how it works and what it lets you do. people always complain to change, and hate it, but often times once you get to know the changes, you learn to appreciate them. as long as they are smart changes.

you might like how midi is now, but if it was different, you might like it even more, even though at first you'd hate the change.

but too much change at once i think is bad.
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Old 03-21-2012, 03:17 PM   #76
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I'm a heavy MIDI user. I don't care much about audio recording.
MIDI is awesome, but not in REAPER. REAPER is awesome, but not with MIDI. That should change.
REAPER is also awesome with OSC. OSC is also awesome with REAPER. I think asking for exclusive focus on development of MIDI features is pretty ignorant. If you want to make REAPER's crappy MIDI a joy to play with, a bunch more of the same crappy MIDI isn't going to work. A bit of OSC with a bit of crappy MIDI go a very long way though. And you know, REAPER is compatible with a bunch of apps that do better MIDI? It's not as if MIDI is a closed standard, or you're only allowed to use one app.
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Old 03-21-2012, 03:52 PM   #77
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First an observation, then a suggestion.

The general issue of REAPER's, for want of a better expression, MIDI deficiencies comes up from time to time. Ideas are scattered across several threads, forums, FRs, etc. Some are rather vague, some very specific, most somewhere in between.

Would it make sense for those people who are most concerned about this to get together off forum, to identify and prioritize their main concerns amongst themselves, and then report back?

This is only an idea off the top of my head, but it might be helpful in putting some meat on the bones and more focus (lovely mixed metaphor ) on this discussion.
Hmm, to be honest, no it doesn't. It makes most sense for the people who really are most concerned about this to simply not use REAPER for serious MIDI editing at all. Hence, those people aren't here, or at least aren't here primarily for their MIDI needs, and will at best point out that some other app has a better feature x. The situation isn't much different than say 5 years ago, and I'll bet you that it will still be the same in 5 years. I'm not going to waste much time on that. It would be a waste of Cockos' talents too, which imho quite obviously lie elsewhere.
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Old 03-21-2012, 04:12 PM   #78
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Er... cos they are shit and expensive??? ;-)
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Old 03-21-2012, 04:13 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigiDis View Post
I don't get it, every other DAW program has better MIDI and there is an embarrassing number of DAW softwares to choose from. Why not abandon Reaper and get Live, or FL Studio, Or Sonar, Cubase, Studio One... ...Jesus, even friggin' ProTools has better MIDI. Why use Reaper?
Er... cos they are shit and expensive... repart repeat reeeeeepeat...
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Old 03-21-2012, 04:40 PM   #80
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MIDI is the only reason the entire DAW culture doesn't use Reaper.

Perhaps Cockos is being paid to stay away from MIDI by Tragic, Snooty-O-1, ProFools, Spubase, lack of NRG XT, Fruity Poops, BigSwigs and others.
I still like they way I can transfer MIDI from Spubase 4.1 to Reaper and have better playback.
So maybe they should concentrate on OSC and audio, leave MIDI alone and pocket the kickbacks.....

Sorry, it's a Vegas thing...
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