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Old 06-23-2018, 11:02 PM   #1
fred garvin
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Default MIDI Orchestra Tips (formerly: Help w my halfass orchestra)

Hi everybody! So I'm working on a choon, tryna add some sweeteners, strings and whatnot on the outro. None of the presets are doin it for me so I put together a weird lil orchestral combo: Violin, 4 staccato violins, viola, 3 cellos one staccato, 2 contrabass, clarinet and 4 French horns. The part is a simple ascending figure, I ii iii IV in A, with the lower voices playing a root/fifth/octave power chord lol and bringing in the 3rds on top on the off 8th notes. I've detuned several of the instruments a cent or two around the violin and clarinet.

I'm actually pretty much lovin' it, but I'd like a bit more attitude, a little grit and bite. Any tips? Must have instruments? More aggressive detuning? Buehler?

Thanks in advance!

Last edited by fred garvin; 07-10-2018 at 11:07 PM.
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Old 06-24-2018, 04:34 AM   #2
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So you wanna' make it whole ass?

Geez, Fred. It's a tough call w/o hearing what you've already got. And maybe post it up in the 'music / collab' forum? There's lots of willing ears over there.
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Old 06-24-2018, 10:52 AM   #3
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So you wanna' make it whole ass?
Lolz, exactly. Well anyway yah I know, just thought there might be more experienced arrangers here who might just instantly have some tips like hey you need a flugelhorn, or etc. If not that's fine, I'll muddle through. Thanks anyway.
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:07 AM   #4
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Post the project Fred.
Orchestration is a complex thing, especially when its purpose is accompaniment. It has to be cool but not overbearing.
But the thing that immediately pokes out at me is that you have a rather safe and tonally samey collection of instruments.
if you're after more punchiness, some higher woods (eg flute and oboe in 8ves or better 10ths) would add harmonic brilliance and perhaps adding a mid-range pair of trumpet and bone would add muscle. French horns playing simple legato lines in their "safe zone" can sound a bit soupy and mush up with the cellos.
Another thing you could try to increase rhythmic clarity is to have one of your double basses playing a firm pizz on each chord change. It's a subtle effect, but the momentary attack gives definition to the ensemble chord.
In general, although orchestral harmony is closely related to two-handed piano, it's useful to think in terms of adding a third hand above. So you'll typically get 8ves or 5ths in the bass, triads in the mid-range, and 3rd/6ths/8ves/10ths above that. It's a sort of thin-thick-thin setup.
At the moment, I suspect you're juggling two balls - try moving up to three.
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:21 AM   #5
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JL: Thanks a bunch! Gonna try all that stuff!
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Old 06-25-2018, 02:12 PM   #6
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Post the project Fred.
Orchestration is a complex thing, especially when its purpose is accompaniment. It has to be cool but not overbearing.
But the thing that immediately pokes out at me is that you have a rather safe and tonally samey collection of instruments.
if you're after more punchiness, some higher woods (eg flute and oboe in 8ves or better 10ths) would add harmonic brilliance and perhaps adding a mid-range pair of trumpet and bone would add muscle. French horns playing simple legato lines in their "safe zone" can sound a bit soupy and mush up with the cellos.
Another thing you could try to increase rhythmic clarity is to have one of your double basses playing a firm pizz on each chord change. It's a subtle effect, but the momentary attack gives definition to the ensemble chord.
In general, although orchestral harmony is closely related to two-handed piano, it's useful to think in terms of adding a third hand above. So you'll typically get 8ves or 5ths in the bass, triads in the mid-range, and 3rd/6ths/8ves/10ths above that. It's a sort of thin-thick-thin setup.
At the moment, I suspect you're juggling two balls - try moving up to three.
Wow, Jason. That's excellent food for thought. Thanks for posting that.
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Old 06-25-2018, 04:55 PM   #7
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Glad I could help - well, I hope I've helped... Let me know how you get on.

More to ponder, if you're in the mood. Probably the most famous orchestral chord these days is the opening to Star Wars. It's a Bb major chord, but basically about 80% of the instruments are playing Bbs across 8 octaves. Virtually nobody is playing 3rds and 5ths.

That's an overblown example obvs, but the moral is - don't overthicken. No matter how you choose to arrange the instrumental colours, root notes (whether low or high) should predominate. There's a good reason pop, jazz and blues horn sections often play in unisons or 8ves - if the line is right, the harmony is implied.
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Old 06-26-2018, 02:56 AM   #8
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Yah good stuff man... those french horns had to go, sadly the clarinet too. Trumpets and 'bones baby! Definitely darker and drier, in a good way. Pizzicato in the bass, duh of course! Gonna try a flute n oboe tomorrow... but then I'm also thinking about cutting all the way back to a string quartet, except after close listening I'm not sure I like any of my cellos. Grrr. No doubt a good note about harmony too but at this point the one thing I'm certain I like is those high offbeat thirds lol.

Anyway, yah very helpful, thanks JL!

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Old 06-26-2018, 05:49 AM   #9
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To be clear, I wasn't suggesting reducing all orchestration to unisons - just pointing out that overuse of 3rds and 5ths often causes harmonic sludge.

3 cellos are probably dominating 4 violins. But don't give up on the cellos - try thinning then down to 2 and treating your lonely viola as a sort of bridge between them and the violins. Which is to say, your viola could be regarded as being simultaneously an honorary (but slightly coloured) violin and cello.

If you have one of your basses pizzing the root attacks, you'll find 4, 1, 2, 1 with low pizz should be a better balance.

Here's an example of how you might orchestrate an A major chord with that lineup:
(regarding C3 as middle C)

Violins: A6 A5 C#4 E3
Viola: C#3
Cellos: A3 E2
Basses: A2 A1(pizz)

You get your "power chord" fifth between the upper bass and the lowest cello, while the lower bass gives the "bite".

Try adding your bone on A3 and your trumpet on C#4 (brighter contribution) or C#3 (rather sombre darker contribution).

Adding a flute on A5 and an oboe on A4 should nicely brighten up the upper strings.

The whole structure can just walk up your scale degrees, but...

I'd also suggest you introduce some movement to the flute. Nothing too distracting, not enough to sound like a melody, just a little bit of arpeggiation or partial scale runs between your chords. Flutes were born to do that sort of thing.

You should also try for some motion in the mid strings. Something like your first cello doing a hopscotch motion: A3 C#3, B3 D3, C#3 E3, D3 F#3. With the viola doing a similar thing a 3rd up: C#3 E3, D3 F#3, E3 C#3, D3 F#3. Little touch of contrary motion in there.

Best of luck anyway, J
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:34 AM   #10
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Wow, more great stuff there Jason, really inspirational, thanks so much!
I think I'm gonna have to start all over lol. Defininitely will let ya know how it goes. Thanks again!
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Old 07-02-2018, 03:16 PM   #11
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Well, I was so inspired by all the good advice Jason was giving me that I realized I just had to start over. Like for instance I couldn't revoice my violins cuz um it wasn't 4 independently voiced instruments, just a crappy sample voice called "4 violins" lol. And I realized my whole orchestral setup was simply unusably bad, like one cello had one good octave and the rest of the range sounded like a kazoo, and practically everything had just crazy wide vibrato where you'd start to lose the sense of a tonal center, psychedelic in a bad way lol, etc.

So having no disposable income at the moment I downloaded pbattersby's marvelous free Virtual Playing Orchestra.
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=207849
Wow what an improvement. Good clean clear consistent voices. Really nice stuff.

And then redid all the parts adding way more motion, added Jason's cello line amost verbatim lol but reached up to the fifth in the later chords. Sounds a little something like:
https://soundcloud.com/user-953089356/fall-strings

I'm pretty happy with it. Does it sound tight enough? I had to do some MIDI editing as this is right at the outside edge of my keyboard ability, fluffed most of the quick bits pretty badly lol, but trying to keep as much feel as possible.

Now gotta fit it into the mix somehow lolz. Thanks again Jason!
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Old 07-02-2018, 03:56 PM   #12
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Sounds okay Fred. Glad you're pleased with the reworking anyway.

Just oooooone thing. I feel your cello line in thirds could do with being a bit more legato. I gather the Battersby thing is good, but I'm not familiar with its workings - if there isn't a dedicated legato possibility you could try just extending the lengths of the MIDI events to overlap a bit to mimic a more legato feel. Or at least a marcato.

What you have at the moment is a sort of spiccato. Which is fine if that's what you're after, but see how you like the sound of the bow seesawing between strings rather than bouncing on each note. Thirds can be played on a single cello string, but it's probably more natural in this case to cross (here between the top D and A strings).

I reckon that would help to add cohesion and realism without busting the clarity.

And don't forget dynamics - in a passage like this real string players would naturally tend to crescendo a bit as it rises and decrescendo a bit as it falls. You can create that feel by drawing curves on the volume cc lane in MIDI Editor.
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Old 07-02-2018, 07:15 PM   #13
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Good note about that cello, the spiccato feel was more or less intentional, I was really trying to establish a strong rhythm to hold its own in the mix. A more flowing feel in that cello is more pleasing musically though and lets the stac bass do its thing I think more clearly.

Yah, I don't really know about the merits of VPO from a more professional standpoint but I sure was glad to find it. Miroslav really let me down, thought that was sposta be good gear.

And yah my playing's a bit ham-fisted lol, again was really trying to make the rhythm punch through, although of course more dynamics will do that better in the end. Been adjusting volumes per note as it's only 30 sec and there's not that many lol. When you make a volume curve for MIDI, does that just apply a volume curve or does it affect the MIDI events themselves, so you get the voice that would play at lower velocity, not just the same voice with volume reduced?

Thanks again man good notes!
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Old 07-02-2018, 08:09 PM   #14
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I don't use VPO, but I don't think Paul would mind me observing that it is obviously a bit low-end. I should imagine you'd have to tweak it a lot to get the best out of it. But then you ultimately have to do that with any library - there really isn't a magic plug and play option in this field, no matter how much you spend.

And who can complain at the price of... free?

As for volume control, the result depends on the library you're using. The more advanced ones have programmed crossfaded layers, so as you shade over from eg p to mf you start to hear a different sample.

But even with a single unlayered sample you can do a lot with dynamics. It's usual to make your main volume changes via MIDI CC 7. You can record in the wheel/fader controller movements when you play, overdub the movements later or just draw/edit the shape in the DAW.

CC is short for "continuous controller" and it means that notes can change quality (in this case volume, but there are many other possibilities) throughout their duration - much more nuance than just biffing around with the level of individual attacks only. You can shape phrases.

Sorry you had a bad experience with buying a library. If you're interested in a very useful and versatile full orchestra for peanuts I can recommend Garritan GPO5. It's really respectable on its own and although I use many other more whizzbang things, bits of it often find their way into the finals.

It makes a great starting base point. You can then substitute or layer fancier things on top as your finances dictate.

And subscribe to websites for sale notifications - this is spam you'll welcome. You can quite often pick up really good libraries at virtual giveaway prices. Don't become a library junkie though - balance "I'd be crazy not to get it at this price" with "never mind the price, do I really need yet another brass library?"

One more thing (Columbo). Learn every library you have inside out and exhaust its possibilities before buying something flashier. They've all got more potential in them than most people use. Quite often you already have what you need, you just didn't bother to RTFM...
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Old 07-04-2018, 12:34 AM   #15
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Yah, thanks, I've of course heard many good things about Garritan. It truly seems to be the starter orchestra of choice. So you would recommend Personal over Instant? Instant just, what, has more presets?

I had heard good things about Miroslav too lol... oh well, what I did was, I bought IK's Total Studio package at a significant discount as an undeniable value proposition. If Miroslav doesn't work out I'm still reasonably happy and well ahead. I'm just stunned though at the quality issues in what major publications had led me to believe was a professional quality instrument... that cello with one good octave... WTF, duuudes? It's actually a great octave, just what I wanted, growly, bitey, and then you hit that next C# and it turns into a kazoo lol. I'm guessing I'm not using it as intended. Probably it sounds fine in a fully orchestrated background music situation, with dialog and explosions over it lol. I kinda need more rock n roll, in your face, girthy if you will sounds lol... and that VPO is just coming through for me. Those high thirds and little runs are just cutting through the mix. Guess this is why you pros have a dozen or more different libraries huh?

Thanks again man!
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Old 07-04-2018, 09:32 AM   #16
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GPO is composed of individual instruments (and string sections). It has a few section ensembles, but its primary use is to do your own arrangement/orchestration part by part from the ground up.

It's not top-notch, but very good and ludicrously comprehensive. Very good bedrock to build on - most people would upgrade strings, then brass, then woods. And you've got all the bases acceptably covered while you're upgrading to fancier things.

GIO is pre-chosen ensembles only, some sectional, some involving multiple sections, but no individual instruments. It also has some pre-performed modern effects (races to unison, scratchy and farty noises, etc). And a few bits of weird FXy stuff thrown in. It's a good budget toolkit for plug and play one-shotting or just inspiration and experimentation. If you've got to score a cue and you've only got 20 minutes, this is your boy.

GPO can do anything from a tam tam solo to a full orchestra of your precise choosing. GIO is all about a baked-in middling to big filmic sound.

The two were recorded with similar techniques at the same venue (NY Lincoln, I seem to recall), so they work rather well together. That is, you could paint the wash in GIO and then use GPO to add the finer detail.

They're also mild enough to blend and combine well with just about anything else. The MIDI musician's dirty little secret - you're almost never hearing just one library.

Starter packages sure - but they actually get used in some surprisingly high-level situations. You can go a long way with either or both - as ever, RTFM to get the best out of them.

I'm not a mad library obsessive. I have quite a few, but only what I need, rather than what I may want. GPO is actually still the foundation of my main orchestral template, but it's supplemented by another five libs. There's another template which adds the sadly obligatory heavy percussion, shouty choir and wacka-wacka stuff.

I'm a big fan of "that'll do". What I use is nothing to what the hardcore guys get up to...

PS Have a look at Cine Orchestra Lite too. It's an interesting approach - the patches spread the instruments across the keyboard, but you can change the pitch at which each one starts and stops playing to alter sectional colour and balance.

This is one for when you just want to work in blocks. Just three tracks - woods, brass and strings. Some percussion included. But you can also jury-rig some more flexibility out of it with multiple patches and muting.

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Old 07-09-2018, 04:41 PM   #17
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I had a good read. thank you Jason and Fred. GPO sounds really good. Do they have a promo code? By chance Fred you don't live in Hamilton do you?

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Old 07-10-2018, 12:01 PM   #18
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I had a good read. thank you Jason and Fred. GPO sounds really good. Do they have a promo code? By chance Fred you don't live in Hamilton do you?
Yah, thanks to Jason! I'm thinking of changing the thread title to something more appropriate, like "MIDI orchestra clinic with Jason Lyon" lol. Nope, no place I know called Hamilton around here (NW US). Rock on!
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Old 07-10-2018, 03:25 PM   #19
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Nope, no place I know called Hamilton around here (NW US). Rock on!
Ha ha, Hamilton Montana.

So what part of the NW Fred?
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Old 07-10-2018, 04:22 PM   #20
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Thanks Fred. Being appreciated is greatly appreciated (and often sadly rare these days). I'm not a guru, just someone who's getting a bit grey and knows a few tricks. And has the time to offer advice. I admire the REAPER project and make a point to contribute whenever I can.

It's a big old journey this stuff. At the end of the day, what sounds good is good. Or even, what sounds like what you want is fine if that's what you want.

What's possible nowadays with music tech is miraculous and still frequently blows my mind. Hell, I'm still learning it - we all are. It's a moving target.

Great strides very recently in this field. Maybe soon you'll be able to feed an orchestral score straight into a computer, choose a few presets and it'll sound like the Berlin under Karajan. Not sure whether I wish I'll live to see that or hope I don't!

If you're interested in more on orchestration, I'd recommend Rimsky Korsakov. It's public domain - just Google and grab. Consult it when you need it or skim it occasionally during lunch breaks. As you wish.

In general, I'd say focus on the job first, then the tools. The greatest music in history was produced with quills and parchment at crappy pianos. No CTRL C and V or time stretching...

But wow, those tools we have... As Stravinsky said, the greatest time to be alive is always now.
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:29 PM   #21
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Yah, thanks to Jason! I'm thinking of changing the thread title to something more appropriate, like "MIDI orchestra clinic with Jason Lyon" lol. Nope, no place I know called Hamilton around here (NW US). Rock on!
lol A guy I worked with has the same name, just wondering thats all
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:04 PM   #22
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Ha ha, Hamilton Montana.

So what part of the NW Fred?
Seattle. 12 miles out actually... only takes 45 min. to get to work most days. Record is 3 hours though. Bet you can go a looong way in Montana in 45 min.

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...But wow, those tools we have... As Stravinsky said, the greatest time to be alive is always now.
Yah, very much agree. Half joking but as the thread does seem to be useful I think I will change the thread title at least to something without "ass" in the title lol... "MIDI Orchestra Tips", something like that.

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lol A guy I worked with has the same name, just wondering thats all
My experience with Fred is as an oooooooold SNL bit, thought it was funny, adopted him as an alter ego. Of course there would be people with that name...lol... the bit was "Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute".
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:38 AM   #23
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Groove3.com has some amazing tutorials on orchestration and plugins. Here is what I could find for now, but they might have more. They got great customer service so maybe send them a mail and ask, if they got more for your needs. But I think 25+ hours should suffice
https://www.groove3.com/promo/the-or...duction-bundle
and
https://www.groove3.com/tutorials/mi...tion-explained

Get the all access pass instead of buying the courses! 5 USD for a week 15 for a month.

Ps. I don't work for Groove3, but it has been an invaluable resource for me as a producer.

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Old 07-11-2018, 04:35 AM   #24
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"Fred"

Dunno if you realise, but SNL, Colbert, Noah and Maher have gone global recently - even my less transatlantically inclined fellow Brits are watching them.

Can't imagine why...

As to SNL, I love Baldwin's lounge lizard pick-up artist in Rio. "Da ba da ba dahhh" has become a bit of an in joke among my friends when there's a sleaze merchant around.

Sketch is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzf57tzXrO4

At 1:40 Maya knows the line that's coming and starts to lose it.
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:14 AM   #25
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Default GPO5 UK deal

Great GPO5 deal in the UK at the moment...

See thread:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....08#post2009908
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:27 AM   #26
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...Can't imagine why...
Lol me either... huuuuge Britcom fan here from "Toast of London" all the way back to of course Python via IT Crowd, the real Office, Black Books, Mitchell and Webb, etc. etc.

Lol YT won't show me that clip in the States but of course I'm familiar with Alec and Maya... and apparently she took some of that to an appearance in "Portlandia". Good stuff, anything for a laugh, me.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:30 AM   #27
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Great GPO5 deal in the UK at the moment...

See thread:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....08#post2009908
OMG you ain't jokin'... half price! Thanks, might have to bruise the ol' cc a bit more.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:01 AM   #28
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Seattle. 12 miles out actually... only takes 45 min. to get to work most days. Record is 3 hours though. Bet you can go a looong way in Montana in 45 min.
I lived in Federal Way for a while and also Union right on Hood Canal. This was in the 70s, we had fresh oysters and crab any time we wanted.

It's true, we don't have the traffic jams. Heh heh, our big problem is we've more than doubled in size in the last 20 years on a road system built for a bunch of loggers.
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:07 PM   #29
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Fred:

Google "SNL Bossa Nova". And be prepared to laugh your balls off.
The timing is sensational.

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