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Old 09-11-2007, 11:20 AM   #1
illacov
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Default Reaper 2.0 + Cubase SE3 aka WE NEED TOOLS!!!

Im starting to get a little impatient with the midi flexibility in reaper.

My biggest beef is the midi editing, but over time, I've adjusted a little to the learning curve of the daw.

BUT, the fact remains that a ton of my older projects, some that I need access to for (radio edits) and other acts on my roster of clients, are in CPR format and my Cubase SX3 has bit the dust on me.

Now thank god there are no mixes that Ive lost so to speak, but I would like to get back into some of them and get some tweaking accomplished like for example radio edits. And for the rest, to import the midi (at least) to Reaper so that I can recreate the projects.

Also on the flip side, I can get a good foundation rocking in Cubase in about 15 minutes, versus Reaper, which is a little limited because of how clumsy the drum grid programming/midi editing is (which is my biggest pet peeve about Reaper).

So Im thinking that for the grand total of 200 bucks, you'd have a pretty rocking (dongle free?) Daw, perfect for awesome sequencing and awesome recording and mixing. Id probably make the beats and sequence in cubase and then mix or record any additional stuff in Reaper. I know it seems rather redundant, but it has to be understood that I really have alot more dexterity in my original DAW (Cubase SX3). Its not even a true workflow issue, as it is the general common sensical aspect of the midi editing that Cubase embodies. It makes sense that you have some kind of tools for the mouse in a midi or audio editor. I really dont see how the tools would bloat the program, if anything I think that it would make the program the end all be all for me, but I would still need Cubase for the older projects I have from before, until Im able to export whatever I need to Reaper.

So JUSTIN, MUST HAVE EDITING TOOLS/POINTERS for the midi editing.

Somebody anybody, if we could just get some of these basic tools, like the drum stick, versus the mouse pointer for everything, things would be so awesome.

I have to admit, Ive been able to darn near go all the way with Reaper, but its just driving me nuts if I need to do any drum or midi editing, how the mouse is oriented.

I just bought my non-commercial license, by the way.

My name is

Langston Masingale.

Please give me some love on this issue, guys and gals, you know you want those little tools/icons, specific functions for Reaper.

Peace
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:17 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illacov View Post
Im starting to get a little impatient with the midi flexibility in reaper.

My biggest beef is the midi editing, but over time, I've adjusted a little to the learning curve of the daw.

BUT, the fact remains that a ton of my older projects, some that I need access to for (radio edits) and other acts on my roster of clients, are in CPR format and my Cubase SX3 has bit the dust on me.

Now thank god there are no mixes that Ive lost so to speak, but I would like to get back into some of them and get some tweaking accomplished like for example radio edits. And for the rest, to import the midi (at least) to Reaper so that I can recreate the projects.

Also on the flip side, I can get a good foundation rocking in Cubase in about 15 minutes, versus Reaper, which is a little limited because of how clumsy the drum grid programming/midi editing is (which is my biggest pet peeve about Reaper).

So Im thinking that for the grand total of 200 bucks, you'd have a pretty rocking (dongle free?) Daw, perfect for awesome sequencing and awesome recording and mixing. Id probably make the beats and sequence in cubase and then mix or record any additional stuff in Reaper. I know it seems rather redundant, but it has to be understood that I really have alot more dexterity in my original DAW (Cubase SX3). Its not even a true workflow issue, as it is the general common sensical aspect of the midi editing that Cubase embodies. It makes sense that you have some kind of tools for the mouse in a midi or audio editor. I really dont see how the tools would bloat the program, if anything I think that it would make the program the end all be all for me, but I would still need Cubase for the older projects I have from before, until Im able to export whatever I need to Reaper.

So JUSTIN, MUST HAVE EDITING TOOLS/POINTERS for the midi editing.

Somebody anybody, if we could just get some of these basic tools, like the drum stick, versus the mouse pointer for everything, things would be so awesome.

I have to admit, Ive been able to darn near go all the way with Reaper, but its just driving me nuts if I need to do any drum or midi editing, how the mouse is oriented.

I just bought my non-commercial license, by the way.

My name is

Langston Masingale.

Please give me some love on this issue, guys and gals, you know you want those little tools/icons, specific functions for Reaper.

Peace
Illumination


+1

I'd personally love to have some tools. And for the shortcut/macro fans out there, you could also have a whole set of key commands with alts, shifts, & ctrls for each selected tool. Just think of the possibilities!!!

hm
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Old 09-11-2007, 02:04 PM   #3
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+++++1+++++
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Old 09-11-2007, 02:29 PM   #4
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+1 --I have a feeling there will be some midi stuff soon. I remember reading somewhere that Justin was saying that midi was not his strong suit but he was gonna read up on some stuff. Only a matter of time, I hope.

And as far as midi editing goes, Cubase is the ultimate in terms of ease of use and flexibility. Not a bad model.
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Old 09-11-2007, 02:39 PM   #5
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++1 for some midi love...
there needs and could be tighter integration between the midi editor, and the rest of reaper.
IMHO.
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Old 09-11-2007, 03:39 PM   #6
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Default Big time ++++10

MOre then agree!!!

But i'm sure Justin is working hard on it with the Cockos Team.

One thing also i would love to see is just like in Cubase when you , in example OPEN Hypersonic, well in Cubase, it automatically open the NUMBEr of OUT PUTS that was set in that VSTI directly, NO NEED to go and assign it yourself etc.. Thats a time consuming in REAPER .. i'm sure this will be fixed SOON by the TEAM.

All i ahve to say also is that Version Beta 2.0 is amazing.. WOW! Thanx to Cockos and Justin!

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Old 09-11-2007, 05:05 PM   #7
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+ another 1

although I start to adapt to the way Reaper handles MIDI and how it all works together, I'd still like to see some major improvements too. As an ex Cubase SX user I know exactly what people (and I) are missing. It's the sum of ALL those little things which make Cubase the Ultimate in MIDI editing, for me at least.
Also for the tools. The fact that you can call tools upon shortcuts in Cubendo, should make up even for the hardiest of the keycommand lovers. If you just cut an event here and one there, sure that shift+S (or whatever you've assigned that command to) is as fast as calling a scissors tool and then cut with a left mouse click, but when you do some comping or have some bigger edits to do, the Cubendo way is way faster. The same goes for the other tools.
Don't misunderstand me here, I do NOT want a Cubase clone. I have sold my SX license and there's no looking back to the way the app never ceased to crash on me, the many issues I had with the company as such (without going into details), etc...
But why not pick the best out of all the other apps to make REAPER the absolute ÜBERFLIEGER of all the DAWs?

Cheers
Raphael
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Old 09-11-2007, 05:17 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solar View Post
MOre then agree!!!

But i'm sure Justin is working hard on it with the Cockos Team.

One thing also i would love to see is just like in Cubase when you , in example OPEN Hypersonic, well in Cubase, it automatically open the NUMBEr of OUT PUTS that was set in that VSTI directly, NO NEED to go and assign it yourself etc.. Thats a time consuming in REAPER .. i'm sure this will be fixed SOON by the TEAM.

All i ahve to say also is that Version Beta 2.0 is amazing.. WOW! Thanx to Cockos and Justin!

One!!
Agreed! More help for composers.
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Old 09-11-2007, 05:20 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by funkster1 View Post
+ another 1

although I start to adapt to the way Reaper handles MIDI and how it all works together, I'd still like to see some major improvements too. As an ex Cubase SX user I know exactly what people (and I) are missing. It's the sum of ALL those little things which make Cubase the Ultimate in MIDI editing, for me at least.
Also for the tools. The fact that you can call tools upon shortcuts in Cubendo, should make up even for the hardiest of the keycommand lovers. If you just cut an event here and one there, sure that shift+S (or whatever you've assigned that command to) is as fast as calling a scissors tool and then cut with a left mouse click, but when you do some comping or have some bigger edits to do, the Cubendo way is way faster. The same goes for the other tools.
Don't misunderstand me here, I do NOT want a Cubase clone. I have sold my SX license and there's no looking back to the way the app never ceased to crash on me, the many issues I had with the company as such (without going into details), etc...
But why not pick the best out of all the other apps to make REAPER the absolute ÜBERFLIEGER of all the DAWs?

Cheers
Raphael
Actually, when it comes to midi editing...a Cubase clone wouldn't hurt! (Logical Editor drop-down scripting, velocity tools, parabola shaper, multiple midi controller editing lanes, wow)
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:17 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by eepyikes View Post
Actually, when it comes to midi editing...a Cubase clone wouldn't hurt! (Logical Editor drop-down scripting, velocity tools, parabola shaper, multiple midi controller editing lanes, wow)
Of course you're right. But my guess is, since Reaper is more audio-centric we maybe won't get some of these functions at all. I've been asking ever since the introduction of MIDI to Reaper that used MIDI CC#'s be marked by an asterisk or whatever to ease MIDI editing. Still patiently waiting for it.
The examples you mentioned are all great (don't forget Sine/Square/Saw shaper tools ), but if Justin could get Mfx support into Reaper, most of these functions could be had by means of plugins (Frank's MIDI Tools, Mfx-Script, etc..). Which IMHO would be as good as native equivalents.

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Old 09-11-2007, 07:33 PM   #11
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Oh yeah, definitely got to have the asterisk on used CC's. That saves sooooooo much hassle.

There are enough feature requests out there to gag a horse...but maybe what we should do is create a concise list of absolute must-have midi features from people who REALLY work with midi. Maybe even some mockups (i noticed a lot of people are creating photoshop mockups of things they want). If the midi editor and VSTi handling were brought up to par, think of the hordes of peers in the Kontakt/EWQL/Garritan camps that would join...
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:38 PM   #12
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Didn't we already have such a "MIDI Wishlist" thread?
And yeah, there are quite some talented guys around here who would be able to easily come up with some graphical ideas.
For the Kontakt/EWQL/Garritan horde, mmh yes, they absolutely need such advanced functions. ATM I can't imagine creating advanced keyswitching and such things by hand in the actual MIDI editor.

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Old 09-11-2007, 10:24 PM   #13
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I think the midi is Reaper is modestly competent without being sparkling, and given the progress of the prog, i wouldn't be surprised if we see more midi features soon.

Some nice requests here for basics, and i'll add: midi controller input for notes and CC in the midi editor( A simple pencil tool for drawing cc curves in the cc lanes window already exists with mouse click and drag), and being able to globally assign middle C (C4 for me), and have it stick.
Add to this Bank and Patch drop down selection in the editor, and those three things in my humble opinion would be a big step forward.
We can't all have what we want, lol, but if we get the basics for composing at speed, then i think more will follow.

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Old 09-11-2007, 11:33 PM   #14
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Of course you're right. But my guess is, since Reaper is more audio-centric we maybe won't get some of these functions at all. ....
Raphael
That would be sad. I would hope that no matter how it started off (or what the original end-goal was supposed to be) that given Reaper's current momentum, Justin would be forward thinking enough to see the value in beefing up the MIDI side of things to the point where Reaper became the go-to app for all audio production. It would be a very good thing to not need other supporting apps rewired into Reaper or set up as external editors. No matter what your feelings are on the subject, MIDI is a big part of audio production and shouldn't be tossed off as a necessary evil.


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Old 09-12-2007, 02:07 AM   #15
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...No matter what your feelings are on the subject, MIDI is a big part of audio production and shouldn't be tossed off as a necessary evil.
hm
Don't get me wrong on this hm,
I NEED the MIDI just as bad as the audio side of things.
I'm always starting off with some MIDI arrangement before I commit to audio or start to record guitar & bass takes. So yes, I would love to see the best possible handling of MIDI in Reaper as well.

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Old 09-12-2007, 02:19 AM   #16
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I agree the midi needs to catch up, but I don't agree about the tools now.6 months ago I would have, but I'm so used to the reaper way now that when I jumped back to nuendo recently I was all fingers and thumbs and i couldn't edit as quick as i do now.The main things I miss are scrubbing and the pencil tool to find and get rid of clicks, I'm using wavelab as an ext editor so its not all bad



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Old 09-12-2007, 07:15 AM   #17
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I agree the midi needs to catch up, but I don't agree about the tools now.6 months ago I would have, but I'm so used to the reaper way now that when I jumped back to nuendo recently I was all fingers and thumbs and i couldn't edit as quick as i do now.The main things I miss are scrubbing and the pencil tool to find and get rid of clicks, I'm using wavelab as an ext editor so its not all bad



MC
Actually, if you'll check it out again, we were talking about a different kind of tools. There are some things that the Cubendo shaping tools can do with midi that Reaper cannot, like parabola shaping (not that this requires a button or cursor, you could just hold alt or something...) and we've also expanded the conversation to discuss the actual midi "Tools" (not "Toolbar"), which include a vast array of data shaping and viewing abilities that Reaper doesn't even come close to having right now, except maybe through a couple plugins that touch on the basics. For some of these tools, there is no substitute, and for professionals and proper midi people it is very hard to work without them once you have gotten used them. They save time and vastly improve the expressive abilities of the sequencer, making it work more like an actual musical instrument so that you don't have a "blocky" feel and sound to your music.
By the way, this is not to knock Reaper...it is totally understandable that they saved the midi editing upgrades for later while they hammer out the rest of the prog.
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Old 09-12-2007, 08:29 AM   #18
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Don't get me wrong on this hm,
I NEED the MIDI just as bad as the audio side of things.
I'm always starting off with some MIDI arrangement before I commit to audio or start to record guitar & bass takes. So yes, I would love to see the best possible handling of MIDI in Reaper as well.

Raphael
That wasn't pointed directly at you Raphael, it was intended as a general statement for the masses.

I find that I am using MIDI more now than I ever used to and as far as I'm concerned it's equally important to the audio improvements being made. Once I go Quad Core (soon, very soon... I hope...) I won't think twice about loading up projects with soft synths and samplers instead of routing through hardware or recording audio out of my synth rack.


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Old 09-12-2007, 09:00 AM   #19
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I agree the midi needs to catch up, but I don't agree about the tools now.6 months ago I would have, but I'm so used to the reaper way now that when I jumped back to nuendo recently I was all fingers and thumbs and i couldn't edit as quick as i do now..... MC
I'm thinking about tools on two levels:

1. As a way to increase options. By having a dedicated set of key commands for different selected "tools" you could have way more options (all with alts, shifts, and ctrls) available at a single click - geared specifically for the function or nature of that "tool" - without having to switch between keyboard presets and remembering which shortcuts are on a given set. When a specific "tool" button is highlighted, you know EXACTLY what to expect from all of your shortcuts without having to think about what key set you are in ATM.

2. Tools are not evil. Some people like tools. Some people don't use Reaper all day every day. Some people have too many other things rattling around in the brain to remember which shift click thing to do for a given function. Sometimes you just go daft at 4 am and can't remember what you're doing. There have been many posts on this board about how complex R is for n00bs to wrap their heads around and I say - give 'em some tools to get started / fall back on / whatever. Here's an analogy - my mother's a smart woman, but when she started using computers and programs like Word, she always used menus and the standard tool buttons for everything, but now she uses only shortcuts. Tools help lessen the learning curve and make any program more accessible to the average user who, lets face it, make up a very large portion (maybe even the majority) of any program's user base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
... I'm using wavelab as an ext editor... MC
I'm using Sound Forge as an external editor and I use both tools and shortcuts in it with no speed hit at all. I guess it all depends on what you're used to. That's why I think having tools available for those who want them or are are used to them is a good thing and shouldn't be looked down upon by the more seasoned, shortcut happy "old-school" Reaper users.


hm
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Old 09-12-2007, 06:28 PM   #20
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Default Ill tell you this much....

How long does it take someone to program a drum roll in Reaper?

With the mouse?

In Cubase it was like all of 2 seconds in one smooth click with the drumstick tool. If you screwed up the same tool would erase any mistakes. Now so far the only thing thats missing in Reaper for me is having the drum stick tool, as well as the accuracy.

For whatever reason, the snap feature isnt so snappy when you're trying to draw in a pattern at any resolution past 1/8. At 1/16 even with snap to grid on, you still get notes that aint where they're supposed to be.

Believe me midi humanize is great, but its nice to have the ability to manipulate your midi tracks at the smallest level.

So at the moment, I feel like I can get pretty far with SE3 and Reaper 2.

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Old 09-12-2007, 09:21 PM   #21
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For whatever reason, the snap feature isnt so snappy when you're trying to draw in a pattern at any resolution past 1/8. At 1/16 even with snap to grid on, you still get notes that aint where they're supposed to be.
That is for this reason: Reaper's 1/4, 1/8 and 1/16 do not refer to note lengths, ie. quarter notes, eighths or sixteenths... but rather division of a beat.

it is confusing at first... and maybe even a little confusing later on too.

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Old 09-13-2007, 04:51 AM   #22
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I'm in 100% agreement about the midi side of things,I would love multiple controller lanes, parabola curves etc and also consistant key commands/behaviour between the audio and midi editors.


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Old 09-14-2007, 04:35 AM   #23
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MIDI editing (especially the piano roll) could benefit from some stolen ideas from FL Studio (which has one of the best piano rolls ever and very clever features), Logic (the way note velocity is represented with that "line" inside notes!!) and Cubase (multiple lanes, drum/percussion editor).

Cheers!
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:31 AM   #24
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I miss the scissor tool from Cubase the most. Simple way to cut and arrange midi parts by cutting then dragging the cut section... Quick and easy and great for arranging a track to fit vocals etc...
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Old 09-14-2007, 07:32 AM   #25
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That is for this reason: Reaper's 1/4, 1/8 and 1/16 do not refer to note lengths, ie. quarter notes, eighths or sixteenths... but rather division of a beat.

it is confusing at first... and maybe even a little confusing later on too.

.t

I was just thinking about that last night, as I was trying to quantize. Definitely too abstract. Since we are making music here, it would be nice if the ui used musical language, not engineer/programmer language.
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Old 09-14-2007, 07:57 AM   #26
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I really love this about reaper's current midi set too!:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
MIDI editing (especially the piano roll) could benefit from some stolen ideas from FL Studio (which has one of the best piano rolls ever and very clever features), Logic (the way note velocity is represented with that "line" inside notes!!) and Cubase (multiple lanes, drum/percussion editor).

Cheers!
bManic


Quote:
Originally Posted by eepyikes View Post
I was just thinking about that last night, as I was trying to quantize. Definitely too abstract. Since we are making music here, it would be nice if the ui used musical language, not engineer/programmer language.
perhaps as an option... but there are some really cool things about the current implementation. The problem is wrapping your head around it. Once you do though... or I should say once i did, I began to appreciate it such that I'd rather see the traditional way implemented as an option rather than a replacement.


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Old 09-14-2007, 04:35 PM   #27
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On the midi love...

I'd just like to be able to control midi hardware with a fader. I have a Proteus 2000 and some other midi hardware that I often use and sometimes actually render as tracks.

Having a channel in the mixer controlling the volume and pan of a midi hardware unit is indespensable to me. Just give me a switch in the TCP that turns the fader and pan to transmit CC 7 & 10.
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Old 09-18-2007, 02:14 PM   #28
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Default On further review.......

I still think there are some lacking issues here and there regarding Reaper's midi features. HOWEVER, that being said, I'm really digging the overall appeal of the program and have been using it consistently.

The mixing features and routing flexibility more than compensate for my minor gripes about midi editing.

If anything, Ive been making beats that are much more fluid sounding and feeling. This I like.

Ive adjusted to the quantize settings and translations and to be honest, Ive set my drum editor to be a little bit more flexible, however I still miss my instant drum rolls in Cubase's drum editor.

I'm sure there's a way to do this, but I haven't taken the time to look it up.

Also, just to close up. THE SOUND QUALITY IS AMAZING!!

I've been using the Stillwell plug ins and talking them up to everyone I meet.

On a really wild note, Ive been juggling going mixerless because of how good Reaper sounds, BUT maybe in conjunction with a nice console it would sound even better!

Anyways ttyl.

Peace
Illumination
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