Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER for Linux

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-15-2020, 08:26 AM   #1
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,723
Default So when are the paying customers getting LV2 support then?

Hehe, maybe three individual threads at the top of the REAPER Linux forum will make it finally happen!
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2020, 08:57 AM   #2
SmajjL
Human being with feelings
 
SmajjL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,355
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
. __.
__________________
:)
SmajjL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2020, 09:31 AM   #3
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,723
Default

There are several LV2 plugs I would have liked to try, but I guess it's just too complex of a programming task for Justin to figure out how to do.

Trying the reverse psychology persuasion method now. <GGG>
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2020, 04:31 PM   #4
Jack Winter
Human being with feelings
 
Jack Winter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Luxembourg/Spain
Posts: 1,834
Default

I don't want to speak for Justin/Cockos, but AFAIK there are some big hurdles.

For instance you can't change SR on the fly for a lv2 plugin, so REAPER would have to be redesigned to unload them and then reload them with the appropriate settings.

I can understand that they haven't done it yet! That being said, personally I think once they compiled it for Linux they accepted the challenge!

I'd be very happy to see support, not only on Linux, but also on the other OS's!

On Linux you can get a fair amount of them working with the lv2vst wrapper: https://github.com/x42/lv2vst
__________________
Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040, etc. :)
Jack Winter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2020, 08:32 AM   #5
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,723
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
I don't want to speak for Justin/Cockos, but AFAIK there are some big hurdles.

For instance you can't change SR on the fly for a lv2 plugin, so REAPER would have to be redesigned to unload them and then reload them with the appropriate settings.

I can understand that they haven't done it yet! That being said, personally I think once they compiled it for Linux they accepted the challenge!

I'd be very happy to see support, not only on Linux, but also on the other OS's!

On Linux you can get a fair amount of them working with the lv2vst wrapper: https://github.com/x42/lv2vst
I figured there was some technical aspect that made it more than just adding a hook in REAPER's code, and was really just razzing since there were already two posts here asking for LV2 support.

As for using wrappers, I already have Carla installed and it can load LV2 plugins, but the crux of the biscuit is that the only reason I would want to use LV2 plugins is because they are native Linux, and using a wrapper blows that reason up for me.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2020, 10:31 AM   #6
4duhwinnn
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 495
Default

I've yet to see an lv2 plugin present a modern preset handling system
in any linux daw. And lacking any coding knowledge, have read that
lv2 is as much of a gui coding nightmare as windows vst, I believe
mentioned in the early days of Abique porting Podolski and Zebra2
to linux.

Being an adopted child, I find the whole 'native' semantic
far less important than many linux devotees.
I value who changed my diapers, who deployed the gause and bandaids,
who taught me how to drive, and who bought me a first guitar and amp,
far more than names, titles and legalities.

I suspect unless one has access to some music-friendly
open-source native linux SOC, and the SOC chip manufacturer
produces said chip/mobo etc on manufacturing machines
also running on native linux chips, that 'native linux'
will always be a unicorn in knights armour, and that
people will shorten their life with blood-pressure raising
labeling regimens and conflicts, that divide more often
than conquer, while diverting man-hours away from the studio.

I use the best and/or most enjoyable tools I can get my
grubby hands on, and almost always in a linux environment.
Not because Torvalds and Stallman are saints, not because
Gates and Jobs are devils, but because of filesystems,
utilities, desktop management, portability,
system flexibility... being able to choose
which size nuts and bolts to use, and how tight they fit.

There, I stirred the pot a little, and the ladle is ready
for steadier hands ...winkety wink wink
Cheers
4duhwinnn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2020, 12:04 PM   #7
sonnie
Human being with feelings
 
sonnie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
For instance you can't change SR on the fly for a lv2 plugin, so REAPER would have to be redesigned to unload them and then reload them with the appropriate settings.
I don't change my SR within a project in all the years working with audio.
It could be marked as "experimental" and with a big hint about this behaviour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
On Linux you can get a fair amount of them working with the lv2vst wrapper: https://github.com/x42/lv2vst
Is it really stable? p.e. with CALF plugs?
sonnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2020, 12:13 PM   #8
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,723
Default

For me native Linux plugins isn't about some Linux status symbol.

It's all about efficiency of the plugins, and is the exact reason I've spent more than three times the price of REAPER to buy native Linux VST plugins for the Linux version of REAPER.

If my VST diaper needs changing, I don't want my mom to give aunt step-by-step instructions that will then be passed over to my sister to do the actual job.

Wrapped plugins, whether VST or LV2 are simply not as efficient since they are passing their data through an extra layer of code.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--

Last edited by Glennbo; 05-16-2020 at 12:24 PM.
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2020, 12:20 PM   #9
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,723
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnie View Post
I don't change my SR within a project in all the years working with audio.
It could be marked as "experimental" and with a big hint about this behaviour.
I've run REAPER at 24/44 for more than ten years and never ever changed it. Somewhere around the year 2000 when I was using Sonar I switched from 16/44 to 24/44, but even that change was not a SR change.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2020, 12:32 PM   #10
SmajjL
Human being with feelings
 
SmajjL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,355
Default

So it is not like all of this is just, hey, it's Linux/open source, just copy this/that into your DAW and Bam! you now got LV2?


When REAPER goes out of experimental, maby this will be a commit/pushy'thing?
WiKi said there should be like 1000 plug-ins out there
__________________
:)

Last edited by SmajjL; 05-16-2020 at 12:43 PM.
SmajjL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2020, 03:16 PM   #11
4duhwinnn
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 495
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
Wrapped plugins, whether VST or LV2 are simply not as efficient since they are passing their data through an extra layer of code.
Code is not plywood. Most people won't even notice speed differences,
and wrapper efficency keeps improving. Plus we're not
bulldozing a behemoth like win-10 or Catalina back and forth
with some bloated expensive daw.

LinuxSampler is indeed a good example of native linux efficiency.
But it's quirky, lacks dozens of how-2 video guides, and competes with industry leaders like Kontakt and SampleTank
(with their own quirkyness when used in linux) which provide
sounds, and 3rd-party sounds are myriad.

I doubt audible examples of speed lags
among wrapped or wined plugins even exist.
It's usually player skillz, hardware availability,
or poor latency configs that need help.

Diva will pummel a weak cpu, and never caring a whit about the OS.
Cheers
4duhwinnn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2020, 04:05 PM   #12
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,723
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4duhwinnn View Post
I doubt audible examples of speed lags
among wrapped or wined plugins even exist.
I have projects that were created in REAPER for Windows that will not play without artifacts because of so many bridged plugins. In Windows those same projects with 100+ VST FX will play without issue running 24/44 @ 64 samples latency, but not in Linux at any buffer size because 100+ instances of bridged Windows plugins is a noticable strain.

Once I started replacing my Windows plugins with native Linux plugins, I started seeing the same kind of performance I was used to seeing on the same machine in Windows.

That said, there are still some Windows plugins like Kontakt that I use every bit as much bridged in Linux as I used them in Windows. Same for Superior Drummer. Nothing native Linux has the complexity of mic bleeds and midi control for a pad kit that Superior has.

All my audio plugins are now 100% native Linux, but for a few VSTi instruments I still used bridged Windows plugins.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2020, 04:50 PM   #13
JamesPeters
Human being with feelings
 
JamesPeters's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near a big lake
Posts: 3,128
Default

@4duhwinnn:

I like to have a system that's less likely to have something that I rely upon suddenly not work or just generally be less predictable. That's why I'm currently not using bridging of any kind. I'm not saying bridging should inherently be considered unreliable, but it is one more layer in which possible issues can arise. Factor into that how the various Linux distros are maintained (including dependencies), and that the bridging for LV2 is done by third party developers on a volunteer (or donation-based) basis.

If you think I'm just too picky about this: you might notice a distinct lack of my posts about issues with my audio driver since I use ALSA and not Jack. Adding Jack into the equation means another layer to consider when something doesn't work quite right (ahem ), and I've seen enough posts about it here and on Linuxmusicians to know if I don't need Jack, I'll just skip it. (I don't want to connect a bunch of other audio apps to Reaper, so for the most part I don't use Jack.) Jack is very good, but it means you have to be ready to deal with whatever it requires to work. This is Linux after all, so configuration of the system can be confusing and documentation is fragmented. I also see bad advice given on a regular basis about configuring audio systems in Linux, some of which dates back to previous kernels and just isn't necessary anymore and some of which is just wrong (and/or doesn't take all the variables into consideration).

If LV2 becomes natively supported in Reaper, I'll use it. If not, I probably won't. That's not an ultimatum either. I'd be happy to get LV2 support in Reaper, but I can live without it too.
__________________
Using REAPER for Linux on Mint XFCE 20
Free multi-layered drum bank

Last edited by JamesPeters; 05-16-2020 at 05:04 PM.
JamesPeters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2020, 10:06 AM   #14
4duhwinnn
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 495
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
I have projects that were created in REAPER for Windows that will not play without artifacts because of so many bridged plugins. In Windows those same projects with 100+ VST FX will play without issue running 24/44 @ 64 samples latency, but not in Linux at any buffer size because 100+ instances of bridged Windows plugins is a noticable strain.

Once I started replacing my Windows plugins with native Linux plugins, I started seeing the same kind of performance I was used to seeing on the same machine in Windows.

That said, there are still some Windows plugins like Kontakt that I use every bit as much bridged in Linux as I used them in Windows. Same for Superior Drummer. Nothing native Linux has the complexity of mic bleeds and midi control for a pad kit that Superior has.

All my audio plugins are now 100% native Linux, but for a few VSTi instruments I still used bridged Windows plugins.
In my paltry defence, I did use the phrase 'most people',
and I suspect there are less than a dozen people here who often use
100 vsts in a project. (happy to be wrong, though!)

To your credit, you actually make music,
and without making 'forum noise', and present your experiences
often and clearly, to help those of us in different studio situations/workflows. Bravo!

I should add that your success using Kontakt motivated me
to gain that capability, now enjoying many unique sounds
available in that format. I've replaced Hydrogen samples
with NI samples at times, and renamed the kits. Hoping their
Balinese Gamelan or a competing lib will go on sale someday!

I've a thinner wallet and tighter budget,
but enjoy the wider sonic palette!
Cheers
4duhwinnn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2020, 10:34 AM   #15
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,723
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4duhwinnn View Post
In my paltry defence, I did use the phrase 'most people',
Hehe, yeah I guess that ain't me.

Quote:
and I suspect there are less than a dozen people here who often use
100 vsts in a project. (happy to be wrong, though!)
I only have a few projects that have that heavy of a load, but it is very normal for me to have 50-60 VSTs in any project.

Quote:
To your credit, you actually make music,
and without making 'forum noise', and present your experiences
often and clearly, to help those of us in different studio situations/workflows. Bravo!

I should add that your success using Kontakt motivated me
to gain that capability, now enjoying many unique sounds
available in that format. I've replaced Hydrogen samples
with NI samples at times, and renamed the kits. Hoping their
Balinese Gamelan or a competing lib will go on sale someday!
Kontakt has worked great on Xubuntu/WINE for over a year now on my machine, and is the primary Windows plugin I do not want to be without. More of my projects use Kontakt than not, but it is always in addition to other real parts, so it's not trying to be all instruments for me.

Since I've gone 100% native Linux on all my audio plugins though, I could work Kontakt a lot harder than I do, and even have a bunch of other Windows instrument VSTi's running at the same time without noticing any drag. It really only shows up when you are bridging a boatload of Windows plugins.

Quote:
I've a thinner wallet and tighter budget,
but enjoy the wider sonic palette!
Cheers
I know that feeling, plus I'm a cheapskate FIRE guy who hates letting money go. That said, replacing the Windows plugin PSP Vintage Warmer with U-he's native Linux Presswerk was the best $140 US I've spent since going Linux.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2020, 10:45 AM   #16
SmajjL
Human being with feelings
 
SmajjL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,355
Default

I think Linux is whiping the Llamas ass it is not about coins or Lamborghini's.. i - Love - Linux! as an OS/community *read my lips* my own choice and i think Linux loves me! *did i just say that?*

Linux is my happy/smiley place now, so much to explore, i have no real issues with Windows10 really *speaking for myself* i simply enjoy the world of Linux and enjoy the rewards of, *Shit! i just learned something, it wooorks, its aliiIiive!

I will never be bored again!!
__________________
:)

Last edited by SmajjL; 05-17-2020 at 10:59 AM.
SmajjL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2020, 11:15 PM   #17
osxmidi
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 583
Default

As far as I can make out,

The wrapper does do GUI's https://github.com/x42/lv2vst, the MVerb lv2 shows a gui for example,

but, lv2 plugins can use different toolkits, gtk, qt etc.

By default only X11 is enabled in the wrapper, so only X11 based lv2's will possibly work.

Calf and Guitarix seem to use Gtk 2.

The supported GUI lv2's have a ui:X11UI in their tll files (in the lv2's folder).

A few Guitarix based plugins have been made for X11 and their GUI will probably work with the wrapper

https://github.com/brummer10/GxValveCaster.lv2

https://github.com/brummer10/GxCreamMachine.lv2

Guitarix lv2's will probably be converted to X11 https://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?t=19856 but Calf probably won't.

Last edited by osxmidi; 05-21-2020 at 01:09 AM.
osxmidi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 07:08 PM   #18
s wave
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Colorado
Posts: 265
Default

When I want to use CALF plugins - I just go to Audacity (as secondary editor... apply them right back into Reaper... works fine. here is a good link for lv2 also https://wiki.linuxaudio.org/apps/all/lv2
s wave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 10:02 PM   #19
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,723
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by s wave View Post
When I want to use CALF plugins - I just go to Audacity (as secondary editor... apply them right back into Reaper... works fine.
This kinda sounds like a kludge, but then REAPER users running Linux are second class citizens.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2020, 07:55 PM   #20
osxmidi
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 583
Default

In the past, quite a lot of lv2 (and some vst) Linux plugins used gtk.

gtk is the worst for compatibility with hosts.

Even if Reaper had native lv2 support, there is still the gtk incompatibilities problem.

It's a toolkit problem, not a plugin problem.

Ideally, Calf should hopefully convert their plugins from gtk to X11, and Guitarix might do it soon.

They know that there are gtk incompatibilities with some daws.

To convert plugins from gtk to X11 is not an easy thing.

The lv2 (wrapped) gtk plugins (or even gtk vst plugins) have trouble with Bitwig Tracktion/Waveform and Reaper and Ardour and others are ok but maybe not always.

I have had the wrapped Calf and Guitarix lv2 plugins running as vst's with GUI's in Ardour but that can't be done with Reaper because of gtk (It's pretty useless wrapping lv2's as vst's in Ardour but I wanted to see how the gtk enabled modded version (that I did) of the lv2 to vst wrapper performed and it was very good with Calf and Guitarix plugins from what I could tell and had working GUI's)

The lsp plugins started out as gtk but the dev converted them to X11 because of the gtk incompatibilities.

Guitarix https://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic...19856&start=15 has partly been converted to X11 https://github.com/brummer10/GxPlugins.lv2 and they will probably work (I havn't tested them) and show GUI's using the lv2 to vst2 wrapper.

(git clone --recursive https://github.com/brummer10/GxPlugins.lv)

There is also vst3 that Linux plugin developers can convert to.

Carla runs lv2's in it's own way but directly running gtk based lv2's in a daw or even with the lv2 to vst wrapper will probably cause problems.

Last edited by osxmidi; 05-25-2020 at 01:17 AM.
osxmidi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2020, 05:00 AM   #21
sonnie
Human being with feelings
 
sonnie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by osxmidi View Post
Ideally, Calf should hopefully convert their plugins from gtk to X11, and Guitarix might do it soon.
They should knwo, there is a need for a convertion.
The CALF team would not go for VST, because its not OS.
sonnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2020, 09:34 PM   #22
osxmidi
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 583
Default

I built the latest Guitarix lv2 plugins from the Guitarix github page https://github.com/brummer10/guitarix and the lv2 plugins that I tested support X11 and work with GUI's in Reaper with the lv2vst wrapper https://github.com/x42/lv2vst

The current Debian (and maybe other distros) packaged Guitarix lv2 plugins are still gtk, so they won't work.

Last edited by osxmidi; 05-25-2020 at 09:41 PM.
osxmidi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2020, 07:34 PM   #23
osxmidi
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 583
Default

So, the Guitarix lv2 plugins have been ported to X11 and the lv2vst wrapper can run them with GUI's.

The Gtk lv2 plugins like Calf, one way is for them to be run in another process and then their GUI can be embedded into Reaper and I've got Calf plugins running in that way using a modified lv2vst wrapper and a Linux only version of LinVst (no Wine involved).

So, at the moment I can run Guitarix and Calf lv2 plugins with GUI's in Reaper, just like any other Linux vst plugin would.
osxmidi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2020, 11:30 PM   #24
Tobbe
Human being with feelings
 
Tobbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Up North somewhere
Posts: 478
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by osxmidi View Post
So, the Guitarix lv2 plugins have been ported to X11 and the lv2vst wrapper can run them with GUI's.

The Gtk lv2 plugins like Calf, one way is for them to be run in another process and then their GUI can be embedded into Reaper and I've got Calf plugins running in that way using a modified lv2vst wrapper and a Linux only version of LinVst (no Wine involved).

So, at the moment I can run Guitarix and Calf lv2 plugins with GUI's in Reaper, just like any other Linux vst plugin would.
Sounds amazing. I really like Calf Plugins. Is everything showing...some plugins have graph in them and they are gone when you use Carla.

Any guide how to install this?
__________________
OS: Linux Mint XFCE 20.04, Reaper For Linux (64Bit) and a bunch of native linux-vst plugins, LSP-Plugins, Drumgizmo, TpL-Plugins, LinuxSampler/Fantasia, Behringer U-PHORIA UMC22.
Tobbe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2020, 12:41 AM   #25
osxmidi
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 583
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobbe View Post
Sounds amazing. I really like Calf Plugins. Is everything showing...some plugins have graph in them and they are gone when you use Carla.

Any guide how to install this?
Seems ok, but it's not finished.

When it's finished I might put it up at my Github page.

Performance seems ok.

An image of Calf Flanger running in Reaper below.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Calf2.jpg (39.4 KB, 64 views)
osxmidi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2020, 09:31 AM   #26
Tobbe
Human being with feelings
 
Tobbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Up North somewhere
Posts: 478
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by osxmidi View Post
Seems ok, but it's not finished.

When it's finished I might put it up at my Github page.

Performance seems ok.

An image of Calf Flanger running in Reaper below.
Looking good.
__________________
OS: Linux Mint XFCE 20.04, Reaper For Linux (64Bit) and a bunch of native linux-vst plugins, LSP-Plugins, Drumgizmo, TpL-Plugins, LinuxSampler/Fantasia, Behringer U-PHORIA UMC22.
Tobbe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2020, 03:53 AM   #27
sonnie
Human being with feelings
 
sonnie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 647
Default

Anyone knows anyone the CALF devs? Wouldn't they do VSTs since the SDK is open?
sonnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.