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Old 04-19-2021, 02:10 PM   #1
maralatho
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Default Clicks & Right-Clicks (I may be onto something!)

Lately, after a few hours in Reaper, clicking and right-clicking will randomly stop working. It only happens in Reaper. I have the latest (Win) version of Reaper, and also the latest versions of SWS and ReaPack. If I quit Reaper and reopen it, clicks will work again for a while. Very mysterious. Anybody experienced this before?

Edit: updated title

Last edited by maralatho; 04-23-2021 at 07:08 AM.
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Old 04-19-2021, 09:12 PM   #2
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Could you please post the exact version numbering? With Reaper, "latest" can change any minute, due the fast development cycles.
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Old 04-19-2021, 11:21 PM   #3
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... and what kind of mouse you've got.
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Old 04-20-2021, 04:38 AM   #4
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I'm running the latest officially released version, 6.27, on an Intel core i7. Windows 10. Mouse is a Razer.

I have never had this problem on my Ryzen system, which may just be anecdotal.

Come to think of it, I have not installed the Razer Syntax driver software for the mouse, yet when the mouse starts to fail in Reaper, I can click back to the desktop and other apps work normally.

Very mysterious.
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Old 04-20-2021, 06:49 AM   #5
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Perhaps this is related....

I have lately been working with a lot of projects (26) loaded into tabs. At a certain point, it seems like Reaper runs out of UI resources, as the UI seems to break. Drop-down menus go blank, the mixer draws over itself in strange ways, and it becomes impossible to work. Sometimes I even see phantom Reaper icons appearing over other icons in the Task Bar. These projects use a lot of Waves plug-ins, typically three per track, averaging 16 tracks per project.

I have experimented:

If I open those projects with FX Offline, they open fine, no UI glitches, mouse keeps working.

If load 26 new Reaper projects into tabs, using only native Reaper plugins, they open fine, no UI glitches, mouse keeps working.

So, I suppose the obvious culprit is those Waves plugins, but should this be happening? Is there any way I can increase the system resources (or whatever) available to Reaper and/or Waves?

I had 16 GB of RAM in this system. Now I have 32 GB of RAM in this system, and it is still happening.
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Old 04-20-2021, 07:26 AM   #6
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Maybe this is all RAM-related. Even with 32 GB of RAM, a quick trip to Task Manager shows that when all of these projects first load, they consume 98% of my available RAM (32 GB). Eventually this drops to about 70%, with 22 GB being "compressed." Not real sure what any of that means, but it does seem that I don't really have enough RAM to work like this.
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Old 04-21-2021, 12:47 AM   #7
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A dumb question, asked purely out of curiosity. Why are you loading all of the projects at the outset? I don`t see how you could be using them all so often that it saves time switching between loaded and unloaded ones enough to be justified.

Just a thought, but sometimes we do overlook the practicalities....
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Old 04-21-2021, 01:08 AM   #8
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If it is a usb mouse isn't there something about them having a rest or priority changing somewhere in windows?
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Old 04-21-2021, 04:55 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
A dumb question, asked purely out of curiosity. Why are you loading all of the projects at the outset? I don`t see how you could be using them all so often that it saves time switching between loaded and unloaded ones enough to be justified.

Just a thought, but sometimes we do overlook the practicalities....
The nature of this project means that I have to frequently make the same small changes to a large number of projects. They're all part of the same larger project, and I need to maintain a sameness to the overall sound. If I have all of the projects open, I can just jump from tab to tab, and apply a specific change to each one, without having to wait for the project to open. It only takes around 20 seconds to open a project and load its plugins, but over the course of a day, if the projects are not already open, that adds up to a lot of waiting. Even just selecting "Open Project in New Tab" and then having to pick the right project name from the Open/Save dialog over and over again starts to numb the brain after a while.

I suppose next time I have to do something like this I should stick to stock plugins which load instantly. Alas....

Anyway, I've got more RAM coming today which will hopefully solve the memory issue, but the mouse problem is still plaguing me. I can't figure this out. It's only happening in Reaper. Right-clicks stop working and Menus stop dropping down, though I can usually still click to select items and start playback etc. And if I click outside of Reaper, the mouse works perfect normally. I even swapped out my mouse for a trackball but it's clearly not device-related.
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Old 04-21-2021, 04:57 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertP View Post
If it is a usb mouse isn't there something about them having a rest or priority changing somewhere in windows?
USB devices can sleep, but I have that disabled in my Power Settings and Device Manager. The mouse is definitely awake, though. It doesn't stop working completely. Reaper stops recognizing right-clicks and menu clicks, but they continue to work normally on the Desktop and in other apps.
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Old 04-21-2021, 07:31 AM   #11
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Sigh...having used Reaper for a few years now, I think I can safely say what's wrong and how to fix it:

There's a configuration conflict, caused by me, and I'm going to have to reset Reaper to factory defaults in order to fix it.

Again.

I have to do this several times a year.

Reaper experts will insist that a reset is never actually necessary, but I could waste the next week trying to track this problem down, and never figure it out, or just fix it in two seconds using the nuclear option.

Configurability is Reaper's greatest strength and its greatest weakness. It's getting to the point where I'm afraid to change anything -- preferences, keyboard shortcuts, god forbid I have to load a third-party script -- because I know with 100% certainty that one of these things, or a combination of them, will eventually hose Reaper and I'll have to reset it again.

I haven't given up yet, but I know what's coming: I'm going to have to push the button.
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Old 04-21-2021, 11:39 AM   #12
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Okay, so I did it. I pushed the button. And guess what? Even reset to factory settings, the problem persists.

So I re-loaded my saved settings, and instead of opening all of my projects en mass, I opened them one after the other -- checking each time to see if I could click, right-click, open menus etc -- and I think I can say rather convincingly now that this is a memory problem. As soon as Reaper's memory use swells above 80% or so, the issues begin to manifest. Then, if I start to close projects (provided I can still click the close boxes on my tabs), Reaper slowly comes back to life and I can click again.

So it is, apparently, lack of RAM.

Let me just say that I think Reaper could deal with out-of-memory issues more elegantly than by sending me on a wild goose chase trying to figure out what configuration mistake I'd made.

Like, how about a simple "You're running low on memory" dialog?

Sheesh....

I've got more RAM coming today, so once that's installed I'll try again and see if that really fixes the problem or not.
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Old 04-21-2021, 01:26 PM   #13
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Nope. Didn't work. Upped my RAM from 32 to 96 GB, opened 23 projects -- not using even half of my available RAM -- and I can't open menus or right-click or open the Actions window or, well, do almost anything. Oddly enough, I can hit the space bar and start playback and hear sound, so there's that.

But UI-wise, it seems I've reached Reaper's limits.

Good times.
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Old 04-21-2021, 02:08 PM   #14
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For the hell of it, I went into Studio One, created a mock project representative of the kind I've been creating in Reaper -- same number of tracks, same bit depth, same plugins etc -- made a bunch of copies, and started opening them one by one. By the time I had about ten open, Studio One was exhibiting the exact same behavior as Reaper. I mean exactly. Couldn't right-click, menus were opening up blank, UI almost completely unresponsive, yet I could inexplicably hit the space bar and begin playback.

Thoughts?

Anyone? Anyone?

Bueller?
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Old 04-21-2021, 09:12 PM   #15
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That's interesting that it occurs in another DAW, and a very useful piece of information because it excludes something REAPER-specific as being at fault.

Have you installed the Razer Syntax driver software yet? I wonder if it does it when running that.
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Old 04-22-2021, 06:40 AM   #16
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This has been a fascinating, if frustrating, adventure. I've ruled out Reaper, and the Razer mouse, and am slowly coming to the conclusion that the fault is with Windows itself, namely the "desktop heap" which is what regulates how many open windows/hooks/resources (or whatever) you can have open at any given moment. This has apparently been an issue for many years. I found people having problems exactly like mine going back to Windows XP. In their case, they were trying to open too many Internet Explorer windows, and at a certain point they'd exceed the limits of the system heap and experience the same things I'm experiencing: UI corruption, the inability to right-click or view drop-down menus, windows not opening etc. Back then, the solution was to edit the registry entries for the system heap, but I haven't had any success doing this. I can make things worse, but I haven't found a way to make things better.

What makes this all the more mysterious is that last week I was able to have all these projects open in tabs and was able to work with no problem other than a bit of sluggishness since I was low on RAM, and having to increase my buffer size to accommodate so many running projects.

I'm suspicious that a recent Windows update may have broken something.

Anyway, I'm still investigating this. It's nutty to think that I may have managed to exceed the limits of a modern 64-bit operating system simply by daring to open 23 Reaper projects at the same time.
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Old 04-22-2021, 06:54 AM   #17
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I also wonder if my using a 4k display might be compounding the issue. So many variables to consider....
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Old 04-22-2021, 08:07 AM   #18
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I don't think it's related to your issue, but I often run into this resource limitation because I'm using an Enterprise LTSC version of Windows that can't receive this update:

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/windo...in-windows-10/

If it was working fine for you before and now it's not, a Windows update seems a likely culprit.
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Old 04-22-2021, 08:33 AM   #19
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Yeah, it's looking more and more like it's related to resource limitations, compounded by my having started phasing out a Waves channel strip plugin I'd been using for a similar, but clearly more resource-intensive version. So I've spent most of the morning rolling back my projects to use the original plugin, and as I've done so, I've been able to keep more and more projects open. Craziness!

The plugin, incidentally, is the TG Mastering Chain, and not even the standard version with the high latency; rather, the "Live" version with zero latency. For years I've used the TG12345 plugin in my projects without issue, and because the TG Mastering Chain is basically the same thing sound-wise, but with added features and more flexibility, I figured it made sense to switch to it, but now I'm feeling foolish.

Anyway, I'm zeroing in on my problems having been caused by OS resource limitations compounded by an excessively resource-intensive plugin that I slowly, project-by-project, distributed across all my tracks, until I finally went too far.

However, I suppose it's still too soon to draw any definitive conclusions. Once I finish the rollback, if I'm still having problems I wasn't having last week, a dodgy OS update may be something to look into.

To Reaper's credit, its own native plugins are immensely lighter on resource usage than are third-party plugins. I would use them more, but, alas, they are transparent and lack the character I'm after.
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Old 04-22-2021, 02:10 PM   #20
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Anyway, I am on "1903 or later," and while I can have a seemingly infinite number of ReComps and ReEQs loaded on an infinite number of Reaper tracks, I'm hitting some kind of resource limit with Waves plugins that I wasn't hitting a week or so ago. I rarely have more than, say, three Waves plugins per track, and usually under 16 or 20 total tracks, but I guess when you multiply that by 20 open projects, things start to add up.

For clarity: I have the latest Reaper, the latest Waves (v12), the latest Windows 10 Pro, and, now, 96 GB of RAM.

Incidentally, digging a little deeper, I finally read that the desktop heap hacks I'd been messing with don't really apply to Windows 10 as it's supposed to be able to adjust the heap dynamically.

And yet....
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Old 04-23-2021, 07:16 AM   #21
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I just discovered that "Run background projects" had been toggled on. I normally keep that off. So I toggled it back off, and now I can open all of my projects (21 total, not 23 like I originally stated) without the UI becoming corrupted. However, initially right-clicks still didn't work, and I couldn't spawn new windows such as the FX browser or the Actions list. Then I discovered that if I close one of these projects (and it's always the same one), suddenly everything works again -- right-clicks, opening the Actions menu, etc.

Woah!

Last edited by maralatho; 04-23-2021 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 04-25-2021, 02:20 PM   #22
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Imagine my surprise yesterday when I tried this on my 2012 Mac Mini and found that Reaper can open all 21 projects and play them back without pops and crackles, and the GUI keeps working just fine.

What on earth is wrong with Windows 10?

(Loaded question?
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Old 04-25-2021, 03:10 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maralatho View Post
Imagine my surprise yesterday when I tried this on my 2012 Mac Mini and found that Reaper can open all 21 projects and play them back without pops and crackles, and the GUI keeps working just fine.

What on earth is wrong with Windows 10?

(Loaded question?
Is the MAC using the same GPU card as the Windows systems?

I once had a bug in Visual Studio where it took ~6 seconds for the mouse cursor to change after set in code (verified by 3 other coders), so naturally I was blaming VS (2010 & 2015), turns out we were all using Radeon gen 5 & 6 GPU cards, so I sent AMD the info and they fixed it in their next GPU driver update, the bug had nothing to do with VS after all.

Recently I found a bug in VS 2019 that will make it crash, so I sent VS team the dmp file, they still can't figure out how to fix it, I only wish Justin/schwa worked there, it would have been fixed in an hour.
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Old 04-29-2021, 10:42 AM   #24
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The PC has a discrete GTX 1660Ti, while the Mini only has integrated Intel HD Graphics 4000. The PC has every advantage, and it clearly helps in some ways. For example, on the PC I can work with my buffer as low as 16 samples (though I tend to stick to 64), while on the Mini I've got to set it at 256 most of the time. This can be explained mostly by the Ghz discrepancy (the Mini being 2.3 GHz vs 4 Ghz on the PC, plus 4 cores vs 12 and the different CPU generations). But beyond that, it seems like Windows itself is a handicap. Everyone knows Core Audio is great, but I think this goes beyond Core Audio being superior to ASIO. It's very mysterious.
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