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Old 07-17-2021, 11:48 AM   #1
Lynx_TWO
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Default [Solved] LUFS of Vocal compared to LUFS of rest of mix?

One thing I struggle with when mixing is to get the level of the vocal correct when compared to the rest of the mix. Sometimes even 0.5 dB can make the difference between sounding “right” and sounding “too forward” or “buried”. So there’s gotta be a scientific approach to this problem right? Shouldn’t I be able to measure the LUFS of the entire mix, then the LUFS of the vocal, and adjust the vocal level based on that information? If so, what should the difference be? Same LUFS? +1 LUFS over the mix?

I’m about to run some tests but wanted to see if anyone else has already tried this approach

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Old 07-17-2021, 02:03 PM   #2
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One thing I struggle with when mixing is to get the level of the vocal correct when compared to the rest of the mix. Sometimes even 0.5 dB can make the difference between sounding “right” and sounding “too forward” or “buried”. So there’s gotta be a scientific approach to this problem right? Shouldn’t I be able to measure the LUFS of the entire mix, then the LUFS of the vocal, and adjust the vocal level based on that information? If so, what should the difference be? Same LUFS? +1 LUFS over the mix?

I’m about to run some tests but wanted to see if anyone else has already tried this approach
No. Sorry.

"Correct" and "scientific approach", I don't think any of that applies to mixing. It is all about what you hear and what you think it should sound like.

Coming from a scientific profession I always wanted to have some formal approach to mixing, but I have learned that there is very little of that, and what little there is, is mainly personal opinion. I've come to realize that it is counter-productive (for me) to even try to work that way. Of course, you can come to your own conclusion about what the differences should be, but I don't anyone can really tell you.

One thing I do is I render several version, named like "vocal +1 dB", "vocal -1dB" etc and then just listen and finally go for the one that sounds best to me on that particular day.
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Old 07-17-2021, 02:16 PM   #3
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One thing I struggle with when mixing is to get the level of the vocal correct when compared to the rest of the mix. Sometimes even 0.5 dB can make the difference between sounding “right” and sounding “too forward” or “buried”. So there’s gotta be a scientific approach to this problem right? Shouldn’t I be able to measure the LUFS of the entire mix, then the LUFS of the vocal, and adjust the vocal level based on that information? If so, what should the difference be? Same LUFS? +1 LUFS over the mix?

I’m about to run some tests but wanted to see if anyone else has already tried this approach
No. Mixing is an art. NOT a science. You will never find a good LUFS level for your vocal and a ratio to match your mix that will work for every song.

Masking is what happens when frequencies clash with the vocal. Making you raise the vocal to hear it. That's going to be different with each song and LUFS can't measure that.

I'll been mixing for 30+ years. Your struggle with this is 100% normal and it probably took me 10 before I was happy and confident with it.

But if I can give you one tip. Make the vocal louder than you think. It's what people are listening to.
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Old 07-17-2021, 02:37 PM   #4
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N
But if I can give you one tip. Make the vocal louder than you think. It's what people are listening to.
Yeah, that's what often happens when I listen to the "vocals +1dB", and "vocals +2dB" etc versions. Often, the one with the loudest vocals (within reason) is the one I choose.
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Old 07-17-2021, 03:09 PM   #5
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Kenny said the words\advices.
Art, not science. It's got some scientific approach but it is rather related to premixing (proper preparation of levels and dry place in freq. spectrum, peaks treatment, saturation, compression).

Having done that properly is maybe half the work done. The slightly biggest element of the mix is proper arrangement (both compositionally and timbral - choosing the right instruments).

If your song has vocals, then its weight in the mix is going to be 50% of the whole mix (attention of the listener).

Also bad drums mix makes or breaks a song, no matter how well the vocals are, how lush and big the keyboards and guitars are, no matter how powerful brass section is.
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Old 07-17-2021, 03:19 PM   #6
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Default Was afraid of that... but exporting both did help!

I was afraid of that... in this case, I went ahead and rendered the lead vocal track with all FX on separately, then everything else separately, LUFS-matched them in iZotope, and put them in a new project to mix the levels. Turned out the vocal in this case needed to be -1LUFS (so -1dB) below the instrument LUFS, but at least the process was WAY faster than tweaking in the entire mix. One thing I found was to be sure to use Waves Vocal Rider (or similar) and put everything but the vocals in as a side-chain. Works wonders on keeping the vocal above the mix so that any volume adjustments later carry over.

Example here - from the reaMIX contest. I didn't use only Reaper plugins so can't enter it, but was still hella fun to mix!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1St6...ew?usp=sharing
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Old 07-17-2021, 03:27 PM   #7
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Kenny said the words\advices.
Art, not science. It's got some scientific approach but it is rather related to premixing (proper preparation of levels and dry place in freq. spectrum, peaks treatment, saturation, compression).

Having done that properly is maybe half the work done. The slightly biggest element of the mix is proper arrangement (both compositionally and timbral - choosing the right instruments).

If your song has vocals, then its weight in the mix is going to be 50% of the whole mix (attention of the listener).

Also bad drums mix makes or breaks a song, no matter how well the vocals are, how lush and big the keyboards and guitars are, no matter how powerful brass section is.
Yea one thing I've learned is that proper track prep and setup is at minimum 60% of the work. That and phase-aligning tracks. Never fails to stun me the difference between phase-aligned tracks and non-phase-aligned tracks. Especially when EQing and compressing them. I wish Reaper had a tool like Auto-Align by SoundRadix - I'm currently using their 30-day trial but will definitely be either looking for a sale or coughing up the $169 for it. They also have one that corrects the phase between mics in real-time, but that's $299 :EEK:

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Old 07-17-2021, 03:43 PM   #8
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No. Mixing is an art. NOT a science. You will never find a good LUFS level for your vocal and a ratio to match your mix that will work for every song.

Masking is what happens when frequencies clash with the vocal. Making you raise the vocal to hear it. That's going to be different with each song and LUFS can't measure that.

I'll been mixing for 30+ years. Your struggle with this is 100% normal and it probably took me 10 before I was happy and confident with it.

But if I can give you one tip. Make the vocal louder than you think. It's what people are listening to.
Great advice! Yes I can definitely err on the side of the vocal being too loud, but like you said I think that’s going to be just more time. For masking I’ve found Trackspacer to be a good tool, but it’s really easy to overdo it if not careful. Also, for an even more surgical approach, Gullfoss now has an option for side-chaining which is, well, seeing that it makes something like 1,000 corrections per second, it can be rather perfect 👍🏼
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Old 07-17-2021, 04:58 PM   #9
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That and phase-aligning tracks. Never fails to stun me the difference between phase-aligned tracks and non-phase-aligned tracks.
See, you have spotted more technical details (regarding phase aligning). I still think this is just a part of post-recording\pre-mixing.
Although with EQ cuts and other treatments you will have phase-shifts.
They are mostly crucial in the low and mid-low spectrum.
With FX and saturators and other stuff in the upper spectrum phase aligning is mission impossible and quite frankly not crucial: you just look up for the best phase correlation to your ear.

Voxengo SAPN has a nice phase correlation meter.
I can see many times double or quadrupled rock-metal guitars going out of correlation in certain parts on many famous bands (original mixes). Can dip a bit only in mono... but honestly mono is a bit overrated nowadays.
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Old 07-17-2021, 05:09 PM   #10
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See, you have spotted more technical details (regarding phase aligning). I still think this is just a part of post-recording\pre-mixing.
Although with EQ cuts and other treatments you will have phase shifts.
They are mostly crucial in the low and mid-low spectrum.
With FX and saturators and other stuff in the upper spectrum phase aligning is mission impossible and quite frankly not crucial: you just look for the best phase correlation to your ear.

Voxengo SAPN has a nice phase correlation meter.
I can see many times double or quadrupled rock-metal guitars going out of correlation in certain parts on many famous bands (original mixes). Can dip a bit only in mono... but honestly mono is a bit overrated nowadays.
Yea I mean, honestly I'm just phase-aligning (and aligning) all the tracks while they are still in mono and then not worrying too much about the impact FX has on them after that. I might phase align them after panning, but yea especially phase aligning Guitar DI tracks for added re-amping, the whole stereo field often opens right up, and it certainly can make everything punchier if aligning samples as well since all the transients line up. Without that things are so "mushy" and "boring" is the best way I can describe it, and EQing unaligned tracks seems to be less predictable. It's just crazy how much of a difference +- 45 sample delay over several tracks can make as well. I thought hardware recorders were supposed to keep that from happening, but then I guess there's still the human element... Oh, and yes I found out about Voxengo SPAN a few months ago and so keep it on my Monitor FX along with a limiter. I find having a limiter on there is good insurance for when bad plugins decide to spike the signal way up there (or I did something dumb, which happens :P )

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Old 07-18-2021, 10:39 AM   #11
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Great advice! Yes I can definitely err on the side of the vocal being too loud, but like you said I think that’s going to be just more time. For masking I’ve found Trackspacer to be a good tool, but it’s really easy to overdo it if not careful. Also, for an even more surgical approach, Gullfoss now has an option for side-chaining which is, well, seeing that it makes something like 1,000 corrections per second, it can be rather perfect ����
Another piece of advice. Worry about these mixing "tools" a bit less.

Just use your ears.

A little story:

My wife is a chef. So she can cook anything. I can make a few things but I make them really good because they're super easy to make.

One of them is a chicken curry salad and the other is a pasta salad. Both of them start with cooked meat. A rotisserie chicken or some dry salami or sausage. And they both have a ton of ingredients. Literally the kitchen sink.

But what makes them great is they can be tweaked any point. So if it's bland, I can add some salt. If it needs more curry powder, just add some of that. It's almost impossible to get wrong.

My point is that I never "measure" anything. No tools at all. It's all by feel. And that's what you need to develop. Stop searching for a tool that's going to give you the answer.

Use your ears. If it sounds good. It is good. This is NOT math.
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Old 07-18-2021, 10:54 AM   #12
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Another piece of advice. Worry about these mixing "tools" a bit less.
With all my respect and admiration Mr. Gioia, in your last two videos "How to Make Your Mixes Louder in REAPER" and "Separate Outputs for Sitala in REAPER" drums are always clipping, why?

Thank you for all of your great videos.
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Old 07-18-2021, 12:06 PM   #13
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...drums are always clipping, why?
Maybe this might give you some answers:
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Old 07-18-2021, 01:56 PM   #14
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Another piece of advice. Worry about these mixing "tools" a bit less.

Use your ears. If it sounds good. It is good. This is NOT math.
Agreed on If it sounds good. It is good. It's not like I use any particular tools by default, they are there only to get the sound to what I can hear in my head. Generally, I'll prep (based on what's actually needed, if anything) and load all the tracks, fix any sync/phase issues, volume match them by ear, then grab a pencil and paper and start making notes on what I'm hearing or want to hear. Next, I'll do the panning the way I want, make more notes, and THEN start adding FX (if needed) to get to where I want, so I literally do tend to do everything by ear (I don't blindly throw things at the wall so to speak...). Now, I do have a mental; checklist of things to check (which I should probably write down) since some things are easy to miss (at least for me). Was just wondering if there was a more mathematical approach (not really as it turns out!) I could use it when I get in a situation where I can't make up my mind... although in that case, I should probably leave the mix for the day and hit it again tomorrow because if I can't make up my mind on the level of a vocal within the mix, it's likely due to hearing fatigue, yes?

Thanks for your input as always Kenny. Love your tutorials!
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Old 07-18-2021, 02:23 PM   #15
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Agreed on If it sounds good. It is good. It's not like I use any particular tools by default, they are there only to get the sound to what I can hear in my head. Generally, I'll prep (based on what's actually needed, if anything) and load all the tracks, fix any sync/phase issues, volume match them by ear, then grab a pencil and paper and start making notes on what I'm hearing or want to hear. Next, I'll do the panning the way I want, make more notes, and THEN start adding FX (if needed) to get to where I want, so I literally do tend to do everything by ear (I don't blindly throw things at the wall so to speak...). Now, I do have a mental; checklist of things to check (which I should probably write down) since some things are easy to miss (at least for me). Was just wondering if there was a more mathematical approach (not really as it turns out!) I could use it when I get in a situation where I can't make up my mind... although in that case, I should probably leave the mix for the day and hit it again tomorrow because if I can't make up my mind on the level of a vocal within the mix, it's likely due to hearing fatigue, yes?

Thanks for your input as always Kenny. Love your tutorials!
Yes. If you have the opportunity, always take long breaks or listen the next day.

I still think you're looking at the process too methodically. Every mix is different.

Try this. Mix a song with only the stock REAPER plugins and don't look at the waveforms. If you think something is out of phase, flip the polarity and compare. I've mixed about 10k songs without anything but a phase button.

And after you take a break, listen like a listener. Not a mixer. Write down what you hear and only fix that. If you can't hear it, it doesn't matter.

Mix fast and fix major issues. No one is going to hear the minor ones.

Good luck.
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Old 07-18-2021, 03:07 PM   #16
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Yes. If you have the opportunity, always take long breaks or listen the next day.

I still think you're looking at the process too methodically. Every mix is different.

Try this. Mix a song with only the stock REAPER plugins and don't look at the waveforms. If you think something is out of phase, flip the polarity and compare. I've mixed about 10k songs without anything but a phase button.

And after you take a break, listen like a listener. Not a mixer. Write down what you hear and only fix that. If you can't hear it, it doesn't matter.

Mix fast and fix major issues. No one is going to hear the minor ones.

Good luck.
Great advice! I will try this Yea unfortunately I do tend to be very left-brained haha. With the phase and sync thing, it's hard, because often it sounds fine until you use a tool like Auto-Align (it's actually not super-automatic, you still have to set up sends and receives and then manually tell each instance to measure) to sync the phase (it doesn't just flip the phase, it rotates phase however many degrees matches with your send track) and samples and then hear what you are missing. I think that's the issue I get stuck on sometimes is "Is this the best sound/stereo field I can get from these tracks?" before I even get to the EQ phase, if EQ is even needed.

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Old 07-18-2021, 03:39 PM   #17
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Great advice! I will try this Yea unfortunately I do tend to be very left-brained haha. With the phase and sync thing, it's hard, because often it sounds fine until you use a tool like Auto-Align (it's actually not super-automatic, you still have to set up sends and receives and then manually tell each instance to measure) to sync the phase (it doesn't just flip the phase, it rotates phase however many degrees matches with your send track) and samples and then hear what you are missing. I think that's the issue I get stuck on sometimes is "Is this the best sound/stereo field I can get from these tracks?" before I even get to the EQ phase, if EQ is even needed.
But you need to understand that things weren't meant to be perfectly "in phase".

A little smear is a good thing. You just want to avoid major things. Which is why I suggest using the polarity button. If you solo the Kick and the Overheads and you're losing low end, flip the polarity. If it sounds better, you're good. If it sounds worse or the same, you don't have a major phase issue. Forget about it. Move on.

Moving your tracks around is not something that was even possible until about 20 years ago. Yet the best drum sounds were recorded 10-20 years before that.

I understand the battle of being left brained. I am as well. But what you want to do is resist that. The best producers and mixers do.

There is a technical side to what we do. It's just not the part people actually hear.

Good luck.
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Old 07-18-2021, 04:31 PM   #18
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Maybe this might give you some answers:
Thank you.

We have a saying in Spanish, I will try to translate, "there are no dumb questions, there are dumbs who don't ask."

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