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Old 04-06-2007, 10:59 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOSER View Post
Seriouslt though barly no one uses gaussian on dither I think.
Thanks -- I won't bother to make the gaussian dither fancier if you think the benefit isn't useful. I don't have the DST knowledge to have a good intuition for engineering judgements like this.

I think I will make a gaussian noise generator plug-in though with different selections for gaussian fanciness. Might be a useful building block.
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Old 04-06-2007, 11:02 AM   #42
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Looks cool.
Loser, I don't know how important it is to get a proper gaussian in the noise function. If it is important, I'd be happy to put something more, eh, normal into this plugin. Calculation cost would probably not be material given that most projects will only have this on the master.
... though I see Billoon's preferred settings don't even use the gaussian.
Haha, okay, oaky, I looked at it and it really had some wierd gaussian in it (I guess I must have been tripping or way too lazy while writting THAT piece of rubbish), anyway, I'd love to see you doing box-muller or any other alogrithm (or at least some actuall algorithm at all ).

Oh and while I was looking at the code I moded it some more.
Changes:
dcshift = slider8 + 0.5;
to this
dcshift = slider8 - 0.5;
Does seem to be correct (at least the DC offset seems to be gone with this modification).

Then added '*gain' so the input gain is now working.

Last edited by LOSER; 04-12-2007 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 04-06-2007, 11:05 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Thanks -- I won't bother to make the gaussian dither fancier if you think the benefit isn't useful. I don't have the DST knowledge to have a good intuition for engineering judgements like this.

I think I will make a gaussian noise generator plug-in though with different selections for gaussian fanciness. Might be a useful building block.
No. I thought I had put some other, more efficent code in there instead of what is in there, so it would really benefit.
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Old 04-06-2007, 06:32 PM   #44
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When this gets some good Gaussian code, itll be unbeatable. Go for it schwa.

Nice fixes LOSER, all good here.
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Old 04-06-2007, 07:08 PM   #45
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Going at it now.
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Old 04-06-2007, 08:16 PM   #46
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Going at it now.
Cool, thank you.
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Old 04-06-2007, 09:33 PM   #47
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Try this. What I put in is probably a little fancier than it needs to be, but it's not too costly.

(I added a gaussian noise generator to this effect bundle, mostly as a building block for other effects that need gaussians. There are three choices there for the gaussian algorithm (central limit approximation, Box-Muller, inverse transform) and I stubbed for ziggurat as well but that one takes a bit of typing to initialize. Box-Muller is what I put in the dither.)

... btw, I was working in 1.835 and burned a few minutes because it turns out Reaper's previous random number generator was really bad (not uniform). What Justin put in with 1.836 looks great, though. Any JS effects that depend on quality random numbers will have gotten much better with 1.836.

Edit: removed stale version. Instead try this.

Last edited by schwa; 04-10-2007 at 05:48 PM. Reason: removed clutter
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Old 04-06-2007, 10:04 PM   #48
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Excellent work schwa, it works perfect, thanks for taking the time to do this.

Great team effort on getting this up and running guys, this is awesome.

Hopefully a few others will check this out and let us know what they think.
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Old 04-06-2007, 10:21 PM   #49
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man this place is amazing good work guys!
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Old 04-08-2007, 01:30 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Try this. What I put in is probably a little fancier than it needs to be, but it's not too costly.

(I added a gaussian noise generator to this effect bundle, mostly as a building block for other effects that need gaussians. There are three choices there for the gaussian algorithm (central limit approximation, Box-Muller, inverse transform) and I stubbed for ziggurat as well but that one takes a bit of typing to initialize. Box-Muller is what I put in the dither.)

... btw, I was working in 1.835 and burned a few minutes because it turns out Reaper's previous random number generator was really bad (not uniform). What Justin put in with 1.836 looks great, though. Any JS effects that depend on quality random numbers will have gotten much better with 1.836.

Edit: I realized there was one additional feature needed for mass appeal. A better name.
Uhmm, there seems to be a proplem with the gaussian noise .
It works fine in REAPER. Though, gaussian noise was louder* (or at least more pleasing to the ear) than the other ones, while it should be quiter (or am I wrong?), thats why I loaded it in the JS standalone to lookup the value in the editor and then it just crapped out , maybe, 'cause it doesn't have the new fancy RNG?

EDIT: Works in the JS list in REAPER, so it is definitivly a problem of the standalone (my guess denormals).

*you can always use the dither amplitude though
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Old 04-08-2007, 01:38 PM   #51
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Quote:
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gaussian noise was louder
Welll ... the gaussian is a unit gaussian, so it has std dev of 1 whereas the other choices are uniform in [0,1]. So the mean abs level of the gaussian will be a bit higher than the mean level of the rect or tri choices and furthermore the gaussian is something like [-3,3] or whatever. It's a simple matter to project the gaussian onto [0,1], so I made that change above.

Last edited by schwa; 04-16-2007 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 04-08-2007, 02:13 PM   #52
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Quote:
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Welll ... the gaussian is a gaussian, so it has std dev of 1 whereas the other choices are uniform in [0,1]. So the mean abs level of the gaussian will be a bit higher than the mean level of the rect or tri choices and furthermore the gaussian is something like [-3,3] or whatever. It's a simple matter to project the gaussian onto [0,1], so I made that change above.
Ahh that is perfect. I made the -0.5 to center dither noise only be applied when there is actually dithering going on.

So can we call it a wrap?

P.S. This is how it is supposed to work . Thanks Billon and Schwa for the new dither, it rocks!

Last edited by LOSER; 04-12-2007 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 04-08-2007, 02:29 PM   #53
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A pleasure working with you folks. Off to the bar...
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Old 04-08-2007, 09:04 PM   #54
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Cool, all good here...i think we have a winner.

This is what community spirit is all about.
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Old 04-09-2007, 12:44 PM   #55
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Final code take 2:

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/16918/Dither64.txt

Should be fine now, and credits to Billon and Schwa!

P.S Schwa fixed the box-mullen return Not actually fixed it so. It was right all the time, but you know what I mean.

Last edited by LOSER; 04-09-2007 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 04-09-2007, 12:53 PM   #56
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LOSER for president. I didn't actually do anything except throw his meds into the cage.
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Old 04-09-2007, 03:50 PM   #57
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Wow. I've been working away for a few weeks and didn't notice this.

This DITHER IS AMAZING. Really great solid three dimensional sound comes from my speakers.

TOP job: congratulations.
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Old 04-09-2007, 04:20 PM   #58
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I'll include this as the new "bitred" for 1.842 if you guys are all good with it (I know loser is
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Old 04-09-2007, 04:25 PM   #59
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Woo woo.

The only thing I would suggest is maybe changing the name from bitred. My suggested name above might be a bit antisocial -- but anything with "dither" in the name will be findable by people looking for a dither.

In fact, since most of the interface relates to the dither, maybe the thing to do is split this into two effects, a bit truncater and a dither?
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Old 04-09-2007, 04:28 PM   #60
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Could i suggest that the defaults could be better set to:

dither on
triangular
2 lsb

which might help people who just simply want to plug it in, really great sound right out of the box, as it were.
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Old 04-09-2007, 04:45 PM   #61
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perhaps I'll make the defaults for "dither" slightly diff than for "bitred" heheh
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Old 04-10-2007, 03:21 AM   #62
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Quote:
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I'll include this as the new "bitred" for 1.842 if you guys are all good with it (I know loser is
That would be cool.

Agree with griz about the defaults, good call.

Big ups guys,....to Justin for providing the JS framework, the new RNG and the original Bitred code and REAPER, of course, LOSER for doing the major mods and Schwa for jumping right in and helping out with the Gaussian, nice work all round.

My only real contribution was harrassing the other guys into making this as good as possible (i only changed one number in one line of code that im sure a real codemeister would have spotted pretty quick given the inclination, nothing really and it took me about 2 hours to work it out. )
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Old 04-10-2007, 03:33 AM   #63
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oh. I've just spotted something. Anyone care to comment (check if i've got this right, please).

Shouldn't the dither bit depth be set to *24* when dithering down for 32 bit float output: remember that 32bit floats only have 24bits of real resolution, the rest of the number represents the range scale. So, although the output is a 32bit float, you'd actually need the dither to be at a 24bit level.

By setting it to 32bits for a 32bit float file, you won't get the whole benefit. If this was a 32bit INTEGER file, then you'd need to set it to 32 Bits.

I'm sorry if this sounds just plain illogical, but it's to do with the way the numbers are storred.
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Old 04-10-2007, 04:01 AM   #64
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Yes, as you say, 24bit would be correct for a 32bit Float file cause thats the best it can represent....same for real-time playback, as thats the best the converters can do (maybe only 20bits even).

The 32bit setting, again as you say, would probably only be used for creating a 32bit Integer file (which ATM REAPER doesnt render to, who knows in future though).

If you really want a 32bit Integer file, you could use Voxengos Recorder plug on your Master buss.

PS: Sounds logical to me.
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Old 04-10-2007, 01:31 PM   #65
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I've just about convinced myself that the gaussian dither option is pointless. In the end the probability function is only used to change the least significant bit "sometimes." With dither amplitude = 1, the triangular PDF will change the least significant bit 25% of the time, compared to about 32% for the gaussian. I think that's pretty much the only number that matters -- the specific shape of the PDF is irrelevant once the bit-changing decision has been made. Simply widening the triangular dither amplitude by 32/25=1.28 will achieve almost the same result as the gaussian (including approximating >2 sigma tails, which only have the effect of changing the LSB by 2 "rarely"). So the gaussian dither option is just unnecessary complexity. Anybody think I'm wrong?

Unrelated to gaussian yibber yabber, I've got something pretty cool to upload in a little while here ...
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Old 04-10-2007, 01:34 PM   #66
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Default Psychoacoustic Dither!

9th order psychoacoustic noise shaping!

Noise before shaping:



Noise after shaping:



Hearing threshold:



Only supports 44.1 sample rate for now, but I think we can add a calibration step for other sample rates. Also, needs some safety measures for handling already-overloaded input which seems to make the psychoacoustic step go psycho.

Still -- A/B against the unshaped dither and it's night and day.

I'm also looking at adaptive noise shaping (pdf).

Jesusonic is DAMN COOL.

[Edit: removed the psycho-only dither that was here, get your uber dither (which includes psycho) here.]

Last edited by schwa; 04-11-2007 at 02:15 PM. Reason: link to uber dither
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Old 04-10-2007, 02:20 PM   #67
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Quote:
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9th order psychoacoustic noise shaping!

Noise before shaping:



Noise after shaping:



Hearing threshold:



Only supports 44.1 sample rate for now, but I think we can add a calibration step for other sample rates. Also, needs some safety measures for handling already-overloaded input which seems to make the psychoacoustic step go psycho.

Still -- A/B against the unshaped dither and it's night and day.

I'm also looking at adaptive noise shaping (pdf).

Jesusonic is DAMN COOL.
That is awesome . Keep going!
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Old 04-10-2007, 02:38 PM   #68
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wow. That's the baby - i like the 9th order stuff. Please factor in the different sample rates if you can, but fantastic innovation going on here...
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Old 04-11-2007, 01:38 AM   #69
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Awesome stuff, schwa. It sounds AWESOME. I think im all out of FRs for this (thanks for doing the non-corr. L/R, that was bloody quick ) , but if youve got more ideas...run with it, for sure.


Actually, i got one more...but its not really needed ATM, make it so it can send and recieve on 6 track channels for 5.1 surround. Maybe save that for when REAPER gets multichannel file support.

EDIT: Hey Justin, what about making LOSERs mod the new "Bitred" and schwas new one the "Dither". They are both cool and have a slightly different variation in the TPDF algos.

Last edited by Billoon; 04-11-2007 at 01:46 AM.
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Old 04-11-2007, 08:20 AM   #70
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LOSER and Schwa have both done excellent, advanced, configurable plugins that i love and inspired me to try my own mod...so i took their basic concept and simplified it for those that want an easy, "set and forget" option. "Dither for dummies" if you like.

Its just a cut down version of LOSERs bitred mod that ive moded for non-correlated L/R dither noise too. Its fixed at TPDF and 2 LSB (my standard settings ).

The only setting you can change is 16bit or 24bit, which is all most people would be concerned with.

Drop it into your \Program Files\REAPER\Effects\Utility folder. Put it as the last plug on the Master fader (with the fader set to 0db) and set it to 16bit for a CD or DVD-Video file....or 24bit for realtime playback and DVD-Audio....simple really.

Thanks again to LOSER and Schwa for doing the hard yards on this one and putting up with my incessant nagging.

Hope you like it.

Last edited by Billoon; 09-24-2008 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 04-11-2007, 09:19 AM   #71
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Groovy B ...

Hmm, we now have 4 versions flying around here. Maybe we should consolidate everything into one bit reducer / dither with a superset of all the desired functionality, and add a "default settings" slider?

If people like that idea the question would be which functionality to include. How about this spec?

- output bit depth
should this be a slider <1,32> or a dropdown {8,16,24,32}?
- psychoacoustic noise shaping {on,off}
- dither {on,off}
- dither bit width <0,4>

This would be removing the PDF and DC offset options, which would be fixed at triangular and zero. Only the dither width is a dependent input, none of the other inputs depend on each other (you can have noise shaping without dither, etc).

If this spec flies with everyone I'd suggest this default:

- output bit depth 16
- noise shaping dunno -- off?
- dither on
- dither bit width 2

I know the "reset to defaults" slider is a little weird, but it would make it easy to set & forget as you say. Or, this could be done by bundling a default preset with the effect. Or, if anyone has suggestions for more than just a "default" preset (does anyone?), the dither could be bundled with multiple presets.

What does the standards committee (that is, the 4 people who are reading this thread) think?

Last edited by schwa; 04-11-2007 at 11:46 AM. Reason: added request for presets
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Old 04-11-2007, 09:37 AM   #72
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Can a non-committee member speak?

I love the idea of having all the advanced gizmos but with presets for quick stabs at mix-down time.

You guys rock BTW...

D
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Old 04-11-2007, 09:41 AM   #73
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Default Probably it's one of the very best, Schwa.

I've been listening at the studio this pm and ran some careful subjective listening tests that i used when working on the listening team for another manufacturer's mastering product (not the one I mention below, but i had to listen to a lot of dithers!)

Schwa: in my view you have a psychoacoustic dither which results in 16-bit audio that is an equivalent standard to the pow-r type 3 dither. Thanks also to Justin for the new RNG.

This is INCREDIBLE WORK folks. 16 bit cd's with much of the clarity of the original highdef mix. Wow.

ps: any chance of that psycho dither running at other rates?

pps: i'd vote for just one uber plug too, with some sensible defaults.

--
some suggestions for presets

"16 bit final master"
- psycho on
- 2 lsb
- depth 16

"use before a 32bit plugin"
- psycho off
- 1 lsb
- triangular
- hi pass off
- depth 24 (yes)

"24 bit final master"
- psycho on
- 2 lsb
- depth 24

"32 bit float final master"
- psycho off
- 2 lsb
- depth 24

Last edited by griz lee; 04-11-2007 at 09:48 AM. Reason: added some default suggestions
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Old 04-11-2007, 10:00 AM   #74
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Griz man, that makes an old salt feel good. (lone tear trickles down, falls into ever present tumbler of bourbon)

[technical stuff you probably already know]

POW-R is a closed algorithm that is managed by a consortium. I know that it uses 9th order psycho noise shaping, but I believe they are also doing something adaptive on top of that (or at least they want people to think they are doing some black magic). I found a good paper (the one I linked to above) that proves that the 9th order reduction I put in there is optimal in quiet, that is, you can't make noise shaping any less perceptible in otherwise silent audio. But the authors say that to be optimal at all sound pressure levels you need something adaptive. Though I have to say for the level of technical rigor in the paper their subjective testing was pretty lame. Also you care most about noise shaping in quiet passages, so it may be the case that adaptive adjustments succeed in reducing noise at higher sound pressures but nobody would ever hear the difference because hello, the audio is louder.

Bottom line, I think the psycho noise shaping I put in there is the same as what POW-R uses but I think they also do something else that may or may not be perceptible.

(Was the audio material you used in your listening tests very dynamic?)

... as for psycho shaping at other sample rates. I spent a bit of time on this and tried a few tricks but the math isn't trivial, it's not a simple conversion, I think we'd need to work out the coefficients from first principles, which is doable but a little hairy. Not something that's going to happen in the next half hour, in any case. (At present the way the plug is configured the psycho shaping just disables itself at any rate other than 44.1.)

Last edited by schwa; 04-11-2007 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 04-11-2007, 10:11 AM   #75
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(Was the audio material you used in your listening tests very dynamic?)

Uncompressed vocals in large 5 second acoustic, 24 bit nagra-D w/apogee a/d.

Yes, there are some differences, but they are extremely minor between your one the big P. (on my material).

All i can detect is that the stereo image feels to be a tiny, tiny bit narrower on pyscho than in pow-r3. But this really is *tiny*. However, psycho offers a slightly smoother tonality, more analog if you will where for me the big P offers a slightly colder, more digital sound. (All of this is relative of course). I have them up side by side here.

However, this is a quantum leap from the dithers offered in some other workstations. Great work.
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Old 04-11-2007, 12:21 PM   #76
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Default One Dither to Rule Them All

Here is an uber dither that contains the best bits of everyone's work (LOSER, Billoon, Griz Lee, me, everyone else who contributed to this thread, and Justin for the killer RNG implementation). This was fun to collaborate on, I hope this turns into a trend.

The interface is

- output bit depth <1,32>
- psychoacoustic noise shaping {on,off}
- dither {off, on (TPDF),on (high pass TPDF)}
- dither bit width <1,2>

The ini file has Griz's suggested presets for 16 bit final master (which are also the defaults) and 24 bit final master.

Save the dither_psycho file in Program Files/REAPER/Effects/Utility.

Save the ini file in Documents and Settings/[username]/Application Data/REAPER, and you might also need to choose "import preset library" from the "..." button on the dither window.

update ... psycho now supports 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96 kHz. All dither features except psychoacoustic shaping work at any sample rate, but psycho is only calibrated for those SRs.

update ... reduced CPU a little bit. You should only need one instance of this plug, and only when rendering, but this is still a CPU intensive effect.
Attached Files
File Type: zip dither_psycho.zip (1.5 KB, 520 views)

Last edited by schwa; 04-23-2007 at 06:12 AM. Reason: minor update: removed overload disabling, slightly better CPU
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Old 04-11-2007, 01:31 PM   #77
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Hi all, a fascinating thread on dithering, which I never really understood anyway. Well, I just tried the bitred utility on the final master output of a 24 bit 44.1 song,to dither to 16 bit final, and I'm suddenly getting strange 'jerking' (not popping ot clicking, just 'juddering' almost like tape judder on the entire audio. It disapears when I turn the bitred thing off. Am I doing something wrong, or is it just talking a lot of my cpu. Without the dither plug, the track sounds great (well, to my ears, anyway). Cheers for any advice.
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Old 04-11-2007, 01:34 PM   #78
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Exactly which plugin were you trying? The "bitred" currently included with reaper, or one of the many posted in this thread?
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:04 PM   #79
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What is the difference between "high pass dither" and "noise shape"?
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:08 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbagump View Post
What is the difference between "high pass dither" and "noise shape"?
Noiseshaping uses error feedback to shift the noise in the 18 or 19+ kHz are, while highpass is just simple highpassing the dither noise in order to shift it up into the high area.

Whereas noiseshaping generally puts the noise higher into the inaudible area than simple highpass which just kind'a balances it to the high. But you can always use both at the same time
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