Old 01-23-2007, 07:35 PM   #1
spherop
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Default Something Like LIVE's Session View

Maybe has already been said but wanted to vote again.

LIVE's session view is a paradigm shifting juggernaut. It's something I have not found in another DAW yet is so crucially useful.

I just want to throw out there that this kind of capability in Reaper would be simply jaw-droppingly potent.
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Old 01-23-2007, 07:37 PM   #2
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I've played with it, but never really got into it.. can you describe how you use it and why it is so helpful for you?

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Old 01-23-2007, 07:47 PM   #3
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For a start, you can switch to other parts in a song seamlessly without glitching or losing time. So jump from one region eg verse to another region eg bridge flawlessly, because the change is delayed until the cursor reaches the next grid line as designated by your grid preference (eg 1 bar, 2 bars, 1/2 bar, etc). Great for doing remixes. That's the arrangement views strong point.

The session view you can trigger clips off in perfect sync, again according to the grid settings. They can be one-shots or looped, whatever length you set, and you can record them in the arrangement view like a jam session.

If you could combine that with object editing, where each clip had it's own fx, you would really have something groundbreaking

edit: here's a thread I did a while ago on Live:
http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4323

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Old 01-23-2007, 07:47 PM   #4
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yeh, an explaination of how it works in Live and perhaps some screenshots can really help with a FR.
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Old 01-23-2007, 08:01 PM   #5
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I like the idea. I am not a Live user, but I think this request is similar to an idea I had which is to have an arranger that basically will play back the song's regions in a specified order to create a song without having to linearly lay it out across the timeline. I think Cubase has a similar feature also. This would be helpful for doing quick song arrangements by creating sort of a "region playback" list.

Being able to export this quick region song arrangement would be an easy way to demo an instrumental to write to, etc.
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Old 01-23-2007, 08:12 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
I've played with it, but never really got into it.. can you describe how you use it and why it is so helpful for you?

-Justin
absolutely - be happy to.

i have used DAWs since they first came into existence. but have always been so frustrated by the limitation of the enhanced tape/machine paradigm. software can let us do much more with musical ideas than stretch them out along tracks from left to right.

what the session does is enable me to have a virtual "idea bank". i record all of my ideas into slots in the session view. then i can setup as many variations as i like and mix and match in any way possible. any # of different mixes and arrangements of my ideas are thus a drag and drop away.

here's my process with live:

* setup a basic click
* add say 2 or 3 kick/snare patterns (could be verse chorus) each in own slot
* start jamming out electric bass ideas in own slot
* listen back and loop "happening" segments of my bass
* drag each new looped segment of bass to its own slot in the bass channel
* do the same with guitar, keys etc.
* now - using live's quantized plaback trigger feature (!!) i can preview any number of different combos of bass, guitar, key, drum etc parts. each part can be any length, looped or un-looped, processed in different ways.
* from top to bottom i can setup SCENES which are the different MIXES i have discovered from above process
* scenes can be triggered much as slots using trigger quant.
* at any point i can RECORD my live "arranging" of scenes, slots, etc to my arrangement view (the paradigm view that we are used to in all other DAWS).
* now i mix and further edit my already shaped arrangement

I tried my best to explain the value. In broad terms, the session view is the most powerful idea factory and live idea mixer in the daw world. when i go back to other daw's arrangement windows, i encounter the slow labor of trying out different ideas by copy/pasting them into groups of bars. and then moving them about.

granted - reaper has some nice features for playing back regions, ripple edits etc.

but session view is all of that on steriods - a true additional dimension in the musical matrix of a composition. so you can take any part of any track and play it with any part of any other track at any time easily. combine that with the quantized triggering and you have an amazing creative music machine.

reaper's mixer and arranger are miles beyond live's so if reaper could gain some of this ability it would be a bit of a leapfrog scenario.

i live in SF by the way - if you ever want a demonstration of these processes. (also design software so i know the challenges inherant )

thanks for the ear.
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Old 01-23-2007, 08:18 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahoova View Post
I like the idea. I am not a Live user, but I think this request is similar to an idea I had which is to have an arranger that basically will play back the song's regions in a specified order to create a song without having to linearly lay it out across the timeline. I think Cubase has a similar feature also. This would be helpful for doing quick song arrangements by creating sort of a "region playback" list.

Being able to export this quick region song arrangement would be an easy way to demo an instrumental to write to, etc.
this is true - cubase has this - but think of live's session view as this x 10 - because we now have this on a PER TRACK BASIS.

ever wish you could instantly tryout a hi hat pattern that is say at bar 92 of your arrangement with the first verse bars 17-25?

every idea on any track can be played with every idea on any other track. and the results can be turned into a new arrangement!

what's more justin - if you do get into this arena - go one up on live and allow for multiple session and arrangement "scenes"!!!! then it's over.

i will try an grab a screen shot from somewhere and expound some more with visual context. (daw machine not internet'd)
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Old 01-23-2007, 08:19 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spherop View Post

reaper's mixer and arranger are miles beyond live's so if reaper could gain some of this ability it would be a bit of a leapfrog scenario.

Exactly why I moved to Reaper. I was going to rewire Live 6 into Reaper for the added functionality, if Reaper got some of this mojo I could see a lot of electronic musicians coming on board.
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Old 01-23-2007, 08:36 PM   #9
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let me just add ...that many, many non-electronic musicians can benefit from this paradigm.

anyone who composes music by coming up with lots of ideas (the beatles come to mind) and mixing/matching experimenting, playing around ... etc - benefits.

my music is a hybrid jazz-world-funk eg.
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Old 01-23-2007, 08:57 PM   #10
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well not the best screen shot at all. but at least provides something contextual.

in this shot there are only clips in the top row of slots.

but any slot (with squares) can be filled with an instance of a midi/audio segment. it could be a short drum hit, or a 20 minute violin solo. each vertical represents a mixer channel. only 1 clip per mixer channel is playing at one time. each clip in a slot can be edited with it own settings ie., loop-points, envelopes etc. so you can have multiple clips that reference in different ways the same audio chunk.

clips can be triggered with quantization - so while the track plays back - you can start a part just before the next beat 1 of a bar and it will playback exactly on the 1.

in the master channel to the far right you can trigger scenes which are the horizontal collection of clips. you can create new scenes from any set of playing back clips with a single menu command.

you can record all of your "live" playing back of clips and scenes into a separate arrangement view which is much like what we know in reaper, samp, pt, cubase etc.

however, live's arrangement view is not as robust as these daw's. tho - they are moving more down that path.

for the the best of both worlds would be ideal.

however - rewire-ing - 2 apps - is not a true solution like an integrated app.

hth the explanation of what live's session view does - it's cursory - but hopefully gives a clue.
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Old 01-23-2007, 09:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
let me just add ...that many, many non-electronic musicians can benefit from this paradigm.
I agree, me for instance...My band is more from the Qotsa/Deftones/RATM school, but I love ambient stuff like Massive Attack, Team Sleep and Sasha so Live was very useful for that clip-based stuff. I was in the arrangement side for band recordings, and in session view for electronic composing.

The de facto standard in Electronica seems to be Live rewired with Logic or Cubase, but as you say it's a less than ideal marriage. With Reaper being a far better recorder/editor/mixer, if we could get the syncing and clip-based funtionality of Live, plus the editing power of warp markers for missed drum hits etc, this could be a leader amongst daws. I think it would attract plenty from all fields.

One thing I should mention, Live has perhaps the best tutorial method of them all. The tutorial screen takes up say 20% on the right of the screen, you can flip through the lessons and load up live sets without ever taking your eyes off the screen. I learnt more in one day of Live's tutorials than in 2 weeks of doing Logic's book/cd set, it was very intuitive. If Reaper ever gets near completed (Ha!) you might want to consider this method, it's very easy on newbs.

Thanks spherop for a great explanation.
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Old 01-23-2007, 10:27 PM   #12
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OK, well we don't have a session view, but here's something you guys will appreciate:

http://reaper.fm/files/reaper170-smooth.zip

install over 1.70, check out the option in the options menu (Smooth seek)..

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Old 01-23-2007, 10:28 PM   #13
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I have played around with Live for ambient stuff. I see it as a totaly diferant kind of program. the abilty to swith between parts with multipule loops on beat divisions is pretty slick.

I have a hard time seeing it work well as a DAW. I dont really see Live as a DAW. I never could use its as one. Recorded longer bits of audio dont seem to work as well in it ....for me.

Live excells at creating music on the fly (Live) with loops. I have even hooked it up to a midi swither, and made loops in real time while playing it on a laptop.

It would be interesting to see if there is a way to marry the two neatly. Hmmmm. Maybe another window altogether. Like the midi editor, only a loop editor/organizer?
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Old 01-23-2007, 10:30 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
OK, well we don't have a session view, but here's something you guys will appreciate:

http://reaper.fm/files/reaper170-smooth.zip

install over 1.70, check out the option in the options menu (Smooth seek)..

-Justin
Oh, I'm on it!
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Old 01-23-2007, 10:37 PM   #15
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slick.....
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Old 01-23-2007, 10:39 PM   #16
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Default I love the idea but...

I lvoe the idea for sure because i myself use Live but not for mixing on it. As someone saif here, Live ain't really a true Mixing DAW like Reaper or PT or Nuendo etc.. but i believe this option should be added & will help a lot during laying out ideas quicklyu etc.. and even Cubase yhas it already with is called the ARRANGE window, allowing you to mix by kind of snapshot, movie the parts of your song without touching the physical structure of your edit page.

What is this new Zip file Smooth?

Justin is simply too much, this guy ain't sleeping.. and we're not neither!!
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Old 01-23-2007, 10:45 PM   #17
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Smooth lets you jump to markers at the end of the current bar.

Justin, could the beats be set. IE smooth setting 1/4 bar, 1/2 bar, bar....something like that?

Also, how about not on the beat/bar but rather at the end of the current region? for those of us how arent using bars and beats right now. (free form stuff)

This really will give you a quick way to try arrangments
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Old 01-23-2007, 10:50 PM   #18
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Default Oh Yeah!!!

That is sick Justin! Man, I am so proud of you for doing that, and the fact that you came up with that in a couple of hours is just a testament to your genius.

I'll play around with it and see what needs to be tweaked, off the top of my head the option where it changes, either 2 beats, 1 bar or 2 bars are probably good to put in. Maybe a shortcut to toggle it on/off too.

I'm amazed how good this works! Very very happy chappy here.....
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Old 01-23-2007, 10:57 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd24 View Post
Smooth lets you jump to markers at the end of the current bar.

Justin, could the beats be set. IE smooth setting 1/4 bar, 1/2 bar, bar....something like that?

Also, how about not on the beat/bar but rather at the end of the current region? for those of us how arent using bars and beats right now. (free form stuff)

This really will give you a quick way to try arrangments
Not a bad idea Todd, even Live can't do this! It always has to be to the click/grid...whereas this way, even without a click you can find the first kick of each section, create regions, and then jump flawlessly between them.

Ahh, such exciting times we live in.....
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Old 01-23-2007, 11:13 PM   #20
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it's true that live's behind in the true daw functionality.

but it's moving in that direction...albeit it will take some time to get there.

that's why i am here trying to get justin to consider some of these ideas - as i think that the true state of the art would be live's session combined with reaper's arrange.

looking forward to checking out 'smooth' - as i understand it - sounds excellent.

thanks everyone for the great commentary and as always this forum is a great convo.
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Old 01-23-2007, 11:27 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd24 View Post

I have a hard time seeing it work well as a DAW. I dont really see Live as a DAW. I never could use its as one. Recorded longer bits of audio dont seem to work as well in it ....for me.
It worked fine tracking bands for me, has some great tempo-based effects too. What's really missing is the advanced editing and routing options...no folder tracks, no group solo, no takes, can't increase waveform size without expanding track, no routing matrix, undo screen, tab-to-transient, strip silence etc etc. It's a real CPU hog too, if you saw my recent test. Either that or Reaper is incredible!

If we get a clip trigger option too, I can't see myself needing Live anymore...
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Old 01-23-2007, 11:29 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spherop View Post
i think that the true state of the art would be live's session combined with reaper's arrange.
Yeah baby!!
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Old 01-23-2007, 11:55 PM   #23
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Oh man - I'm speechless! Smooth mode!! Yes!!!!

That option is never getting turned off....
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Old 01-24-2007, 12:37 AM   #24
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Smooth mode!! Yes!!!!
That option is never getting turned off....
Not here either...
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Old 01-24-2007, 05:54 AM   #25
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Smooth mode looks great, but I also have to give a big +1 for the idea of including some version of a session view. The ability to trigger loops in real time is an absolute game-changer and makes the process of drawing in loops seem pretty antiquated. From a UI perspective, I prefer Project 5's implementation (the "Groove Matrix") in some ways, in that you don't have to switch views to access the feature AND the tracks are aligned horizontally like the main view - http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/Pro...lScreen_lg.htm

Another powerful and very fun Live idea that I would love to see implemented in Reaper is a crossfader system - you have a crossfader on the master channel and "A" and "B" buttons on every track in the mixer (the crossfader and A/B assignments are all automateable). When you move the crossfader, it fades between your two groups in real time. It's a very intuitive and musical way of doing complicated mix moves.
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Old 01-24-2007, 07:02 AM   #26
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I don't get it. I loaded up the Brad Sucks song and enabled smooth seeking. So what am I looking for exactly? Am I some sort of simple?
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Old 01-24-2007, 11:32 AM   #27
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I have enabled 'smooth seekings', but i don't understand/hear what it does... am i sort of simple, me too ?
Would it be the "jump to next grid" shortcut i asked for several times ?



BTW, to take one step in the discussion, i am a true Live fan, and if i think Reaper could take some ideas into the Live's paradigm (time warp markers, multiple stretching algos, excellent midi learning for everything...) , i don't really wish Reaper to get too close to it.
The goal of the 2 daw is not the same, and in my personal use, both goes perfectly hand in hand.

That is right that i mostly use Live for improvisation, quick chaining and live playing of intruments, efx, always in sync clips, real time recording, and then drag & dropping on the fly recorded files to make them play in a second, in sync, etc.
But Reaper is really excellent when it comes to slicing clips, taking it in another track, routing, etc.
Most of the time, i start a project with Live, and end up by editing it in Reaper.

If you miss a "session" thing, maybe that wrapping EnergyXT or Phrazor into Reaper could bring you what you need ? (vertical view with patterns, quick automation to whatever you want, a live-orientated and quick workflow..)?
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Old 01-24-2007, 12:32 PM   #28
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Default smooth take-change

Woah, that smooth-seeking is great! One more idea I had in mind very long: that smooth change would be great for auditioning your takes. So while playing back take1, you would choose take2 and then take2 would be played not immediately but after take1 has finished. Maybe this behaviour would be toogled by a key-modifier.
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Old 01-24-2007, 04:07 PM   #29
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Session view idea (taken from Logic/SoundForge and enhanced )

* How about drag&drop "time regions" on the "piano roll" keyboard to trigger them ?

* Each midi key could play a region you drop at the piano roll keyboard, while your current "snap resolution" would be used to determine the transition beat Q.

* And you could play a few regions at once, or even record the triggering notes and rearrange the order later on.


=====
Another similar idea is items called "horizontal folders", they are used in Logic to group and pack a few audio or midi items from different tracks.

Result ? You may have a few folder items on one "folder instrument" track, each of them using different set of mixer channels.

When you double click such folder item - you open (unfold) only the channels needed to play them. And you may even trigger a (muted) folder from midi as described previously for the time regions idea.
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Old 01-26-2007, 08:14 AM   #30
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though i have not used logic since this feature - i like the sound of it...

suffice it to say - it's not necessary to implement a live style session view to get a similar benefit.

the essence to me, the core, is to be able to RAPIDLY work on ideas in a non-linear context - well more even - to swicth between the 2 contexts.

so if reaper could let us define regions on a track basis and then gave us a new tool/window to trigger them, organize, and sequence them - this would add the 3rd dimension that modern music software can so benefit from. i know this is not for everyone - but i think it's useful for far more than just "electronic" music (which of course it's fundamental to) - anytime you want to overlap different parts with each other ...then this this comes into play.
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Old 01-31-2008, 11:28 AM   #31
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For the FR Tracker: !group "Play List-Arrangement Options"
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Old 06-21-2009, 02:20 AM   #32
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Posted feature request here http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=221
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Old 12-10-2009, 03:10 AM   #33
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U1-aMHbg7M
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Old 12-10-2009, 06:10 AM   #34
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Yes, having something like this would be great.
I mean not only for live sessions, but expecially for composing.
I cannot stress this enough. Having single bits and pieces and being able to combine them on the fly to try out things is great for composing and arranging!!!

So some sort of session view would be awsome to have in REAPER!

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Old 12-10-2009, 07:13 AM   #35
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there's also Sonar's Matrix View (introduced in Sonar 8.5)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vxtL8CNsB4

If something similar is to be implemented in Reaper, all current approaches should be studied to get the best of all worlds + Reaper's uniqueness fused in!
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Old 12-10-2009, 08:08 AM   #36
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I'm definitely up for this, but it needs to be done really well. It shouldn't just be a "me too" feature.
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Old 12-10-2009, 08:20 AM   #37
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I'm not entirely sure how live does it, but with project 5 you can jam with all your loops and midi, creating automation etc, performing your track. When you're done you can print it to the sequencer as if you created it all in the normal point and click way. That is really useful for coming up with an arrangement which has real feeling and groove, which you can then fine tune afterwards.

Check out the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMVJY...eature=related
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Old 12-10-2009, 11:17 AM   #38
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It works the same in Ableton Live. Basically, you play with looped items in session view, than record live performance with these items and switch to arrangement view and fine tune it.
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Old 06-29-2010, 10:26 PM   #39
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That feature would make reaper the ultimate daw .....with the feature quoted below feature as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by saturdaysaint View Post

Another powerful and very fun Live idea that I would love to see implemented in Reaper is a crossfader system - you have a crossfader on the master channel and "A" and "B" buttons on every track in the mixer (the crossfader and A/B assignments are all automateable). When you move the crossfader, it fades between your two groups in real time. It's a very intuitive and musical way of doing complicated mix moves.
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Old 06-30-2010, 02:04 AM   #40
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Location: El Cajon, CA (San Diego)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fly View Post
That feature would make reaper the ultimate daw .....with the feature quoted below feature as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturdaysaint
Another powerful and very fun Live idea that I would love to see implemented in Reaper is a crossfader system - you have a crossfader on the master channel and "A" and "B" buttons on every track in the mixer (the crossfader and A/B assignments are all automateable). When you move the crossfader, it fades between your two groups in real time. It's a very intuitive and musical way of doing complicated mix moves.
Like a video desk. Cool idea.

You could come close to this now by assigning faders destined for bus A to a receive track, call it RT1, and destinations to bus B to receive track RT2. Then group these two tracks together with volume reverse enabled. RT1 and RT2 would route to Master and you could then use either one as the crossfader.

Unfortunately, it wouldn't be a perfect solution unless the faders were balanced within the effective crossfade range and perhaps a trim fx might need to be included for fine tuning. But hey, you can do it!

--Bill
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