Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > MIDI Hardware, Control Surfaces, and OSC

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-25-2012, 08:21 AM   #121
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 19,065
Default

M.T.

I currently use an Amiga program called Bars n Pipes Pro (regular readers stop with the groans and eyeball rolling) and it is a Track based system
There are far more of them out there than you apparently have experienced so far.

Within BPP the default edit is track based but you can also define items and manipulate them in the same way as you would in a true item bases system if you want to.
Everything within the item based AND track based elements of BPP are 100% decided by the user. NO automated shuffling or jiggery pokery going on caused by BPP itself.

This is my ideal MIDI editing system.
There is a LOT of other stuff I can do easily in BPP that I would love to see implemented in Reaper MIDI, but just to focus on the whole item/track thing, you need to forget about how Sonar does things - as I said earlier, I went to Sonar on PC hoping it would be a good equivalent to BPP MIDI that also offered audio recording and didn't rely on decades old obsolete technology to function.

Sadly even after several years of Sonar (versions 3 to 8'5'3) I finally dumped it through unreliability of the audio engine and because I still found myself having to fire up the Amiga if I wanted to do anything beyond the basics of MIDI editing.

And this is the situation I still find myself in today with Reaper.
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 09:29 AM   #122
Lawrence
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,513
Default

I haven't seen BPP in action but it sounds nice.

As to the relative "impression" of only seeing the data for one item, if you double click a clip in any DAW I don't see why it would be all that problematic for a coder - if that's what some people wanted to optionally do for whatever reason - to optionally just automatically hide all the rest of the data on the track and literally only "show" the data from that one item.

Where it all gets a little confused here is with the "impression" of what's being shown ... what's visible or not. What you can currently "see" and what's actually "available" to subsequently pull in and also "see and edit", are in my mind, two completely different things... and a simple matter of filtering.

I mean, I suppose if the Cubase coders wanted to do that they could build in a preference that literally only always ever shows you the data inside the one clip you open, and hide the rest of the midi data on the track... in that same system. So to me it seems more "perception" than anything physical one way or the other. A clip (an item) is just a virtual representation of a range of data.
Lawrence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 09:35 AM   #123
medicine tactic
Human being with feelings
 
medicine tactic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: central Texas
Posts: 962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
M.T.

I currently use an Amiga program called Bars n Pipes Pro (regular readers stop with the groans and eyeball rolling) and it is a Track based system
There are far more of them out there than you apparently have experienced so far.

Within BPP the default edit is track based but you can also define items and manipulate them in the same way as you would in a true item bases system if you want to.
Everything within the item based AND track based elements of BPP are 100% decided by the user. NO automated shuffling or jiggery pokery going on caused by BPP itself.

This is my ideal MIDI editing system.
There is a LOT of other stuff I can do easily in BPP that I would love to see implemented in Reaper MIDI, but just to focus on the whole item/track thing, you need to forget about how Sonar does things - as I said earlier, I went to Sonar on PC hoping it would be a good equivalent to BPP MIDI that also offered audio recording and didn't rely on decades old obsolete technology to function.

Sadly even after several years of Sonar (versions 3 to 8'5'3) I finally dumped it through unreliability of the audio engine and because I still found myself having to fire up the Amiga if I wanted to do anything beyond the basics of MIDI editing.

And this is the situation I still find myself in today with Reaper.
I'm sure there are plenty of track-based systems out there that I'm unaware of. The MIDI spec has no concept of an item, so it's pretty amazing -- and a testament to the sticking power of the model -- that so many systems *are* item based.

If you don't mind, out of curiosity, would you be willing to explain a little further? Would you say BPP allows events to live in both container types? That is, items can contain events *and* tracks themselves can contain events? Or do all events still live in items xor tracks and we're misunderstanding each other in some fundamental way?

Also, if you don't mind, would you list any more track-based systems you're aware of? I'm toying with the idea of a feature comparison chart, sort of like Wikipedia's comparison pages (the filesystem comparison page is a good example)

EDIT: I downloaded BPP and briefly tried getting WinUAE running, but it looks like I need an Amiga ROM ...

Last edited by medicine tactic; 11-25-2012 at 09:52 AM.
medicine tactic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 09:47 AM   #124
Lawrence
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,513
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by medicine tactic View Post
and a testament to the sticking power of the model -- that so many systems *are* item based.
Hey Medicine, try to discriminate between the general perception of "item based editing" as relates to editing items on the timeline and the perception of "item based editing" as relates to "opening data" from an item to edit.

I think those are two different things. I don't think there are many, if any, higher level pro DAWs that only ever expose the data from one item into an editor for editing. I think many smaller sequencers do that, have that limit, like Garageband, Sequel, Mixcraft maybe, etc, but not any of the major sequencers, not that I'm aware of anyway.

They all edit "items" on the timeline but the majors don't limit (afaik) editable data in an editor to only what's in a single item. If that's incorrect, then I stand corrected, but afaik, "opening data to edit" is not restricted to a single items data, the root of the discussion.

So there are (granted) probably two ways to view "item based" and I think one of them (the one from the timeline, items on the timeline) actually doesn't apply to the root FR.

The FR is (generally speaking) about exposing data to edit in an editor, nothing else.

Thanks Medicine.

Last edited by Lawrence; 11-25-2012 at 09:53 AM.
Lawrence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 10:08 AM   #125
medicine tactic
Human being with feelings
 
medicine tactic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: central Texas
Posts: 962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Hey Medicine, try to discriminate between the general perception of "item based editing" as relates to editing items on the timeline and the perception of "item based editing" as relates to "opening data" from an item to edit.

I think those are two different things. I don't think there are many, if any, higher level pro DAWs that only ever expose the data from one item into an editor for editing. I think many smaller sequencers do that, have that limit, like Garageband, Sequel, Mixcraft maybe, etc, but not any of the major sequencers, not that I'm aware of anyway.

They all edit "items" on the timeline but the majors don't limit (afaik) editable data in an editor to only what's in a single item. If that's incorrect, then I stand corrected, but afaik, "opening data to edit" is not restricted to a single items data, the root of the discussion.

So there are (granted) probably two ways to view "item based" and I think one of them (the one from the timeline, items on the timeline) actually doesn't apply to the root FR.

The FR is (generally speaking) about exposing data to edit in an editor, nothing else.

Thanks Medicine.
Hrm. I understand what you're saying. I don't think anyone's arguing in favor of REAPER's current one-item-at-a-time model. The reason REAPER is the way it is right now, is that it hasn't committed to a course. Incremental development and feature latch conspire to make these commitments extremely permanent, so Cockos is naturally treading carefully here.

I'm 99% sure that when schwa said something along the lines of "copying Sonar will be difficult because REAPER is item-based", he was referring to the event container type distinction, not the "editing one item vs. editing many items at a time" distinction.
medicine tactic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 10:15 AM   #126
Lawrence
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,513
Default

Ok, pardon me.

You're just - in general, I see now - just discussing the wider item based thing in general. Excuse me for interrupting that discussion.

Thanks Medicine. Carry on.
Lawrence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 10:35 AM   #127
djjedidiah
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 443
Default



This is what I think is perfect for multi-item, multi-track editing. No, there are no stacked items, but it's just as easy to do with multiple tracks, and that gets around the issues there. 3 minutes and 13 seconds shows targeting specific tracks. Notice that it also has a solo and mute for the selected tracks in the track list (on the left). Is this not at least a good starting point?
djjedidiah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 11:24 AM   #128
Lawrence
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,513
Default

Seems to be. At least one company (apparently) directly copied it from Avid, assuming PT had it already which I think is probably the case. I mean... they're almost - exactly - the same.

- Same track list view filters.
- Same track list edit filters and same pencil icon.
- Similar drop down list for track selection.
- Track solo, mute and instrument launch.

Its almost an identical copy from PT except for the midi inspector.



Lawrence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 11:33 AM   #129
medicine tactic
Human being with feelings
 
medicine tactic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: central Texas
Posts: 962
Default

Oh man, I would flip my shit for automation lanes in the ME
medicine tactic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 01:45 PM   #130
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 12,661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by medicine tactic View Post
Oh man, I would flip my shit for automation lanes in the ME
The way it looked to me, at least the automation I saw, was controlling the PT mixer VSTi outputs.
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums -|- Elk Video Productions -|- Tod's Music
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 01:51 PM   #131
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 12,661
Default

The multi-track setup was pretty nice, although I think if we want Reaper's ME to advance in that direction, or any direction for that matter, we need to think a little more practical.

It don't hurt to dream but it might not help to get to carried away either.
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums -|- Elk Video Productions -|- Tod's Music
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 02:11 PM   #132
run, megalodon
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,860
Default

Check the latest pre, folks. Time to test and give feedback.
run, megalodon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 03:50 PM   #133
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 19,065
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by medicine tactic View Post
I'm sure there are plenty of track-based systems out there that I'm unaware of. The MIDI spec has no concept of an item, so it's pretty amazing -- and a testament to the sticking power of the model -- that so many systems *are* item based.

If you don't mind, out of curiosity, would you be willing to explain a little further? Would you say BPP allows events to live in both container types? That is, items can contain events *and* tracks themselves can contain events? Or do all events still live in items xor tracks and we're misunderstanding each other in some fundamental way?

Also, if you don't mind, would you list any more track-based systems you're aware of? I'm toying with the idea of a feature comparison chart, sort of like Wikipedia's comparison pages (the filesystem comparison page is a good example)

EDIT: I downloaded BPP and briefly tried getting WinUAE running, but it looks like I need an Amiga ROM ...
Sure - it will be a few days though as I am finishing the annual accounts for our financial chap - deadline is Dec st - and I have the painters coming to "do" all the bedrooms and bathroom upstairs on Tuesday, which means I will be moving goods and furniture most of the next 2 days!
Not sure I will be a LOT of help on offering up multiple DAWS or sequencers that offer track based either as an option or compulsory as I only know what I have used so far.

Been told by other people I have showed BPP to that they have used systems that can edit in the same way, but only anecdotal evidence on that, which is why I am still on BPP!

Until recently a guy called Alfred Faust was developing a PC port of BPP which I believe functioned without needing to use Win-uae or similar. It will be available on the Yahoo Bars n Pipes group and almost certainly on Aminet. Free, of course.
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 03:52 AM   #134
mikeroephonics
Human being with feelings
 
mikeroephonics's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,485
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by run, megalodon View Post
Well one reason you might stack items is that you have written two parts in two separate items and later on you decide that there is a portion of the song that you want them both to play on.
Most of my orchestral instruments are split across 3 MIDI Channels/REAPER TCPs, so being able to move MIDI for all 3 of these Tracks would be great for me. I have to route to 3 discrete MIDI Channels for MIDI filtering purposes. It would take too long to explain why. Trust me...lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by run, megalodon View Post
Maybe you could even hide all the items in a track in the filter like collapsing a tree. That would sort of be the best of both world's wouldn't it?
My ideas:
Collapsed tree = Track-based editing for that Track

Expanded Tree = Item-based editing for that Track
(If you select all Items on the track, it logically acts as Track-based editing with a collapsed tree)

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
I would like to be able to collapse all items and just see tracks in the filter window. This could also be considered as a toggle between regular Reaper's workflow and track-based workflow. The behavior of ME could (possibly) change between two work paradigms upon this tree collapsing operation.
I'm revising my "Filter Window" mockup to show Items under Tracks in a Windows-style tree system. Like this:

Track 1
|- Item Name 1
|- Item Name 2
|- Item Name 3
Track 2
|- Item Name 1
|- Item Name 2
|- Item Name 3

I also added a checkbox called "Hide Items" which enables track-based editing.

Trying to finish it by Sunday. I've been busy with work.
There's a lot of logical issues with track buttons & item buttons to consider. Not as simple as it may seem.
__________________
Please check out these MIDI requests: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=103192
Thanks.
mikeroephonics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 04:14 AM   #135
Sambo Rouge
Human being with feelings
 
Sambo Rouge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posts: 1,924
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by medicine tactic View Post
Oh man, I would flip my shit for automation lanes in the ME
Remind me never to come to your place for pancakes.
Sambo Rouge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 08:45 AM   #136
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 12,661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sambo Rouge View Post
Remind me never to come to your place for pancakes.
Hahahah...
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums -|- Elk Video Productions -|- Tod's Music
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 07:24 PM   #137
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 19,065
Default

As it happens I have a solo gig unexpectedly next Saturday so I will be working on my MIDI backing tracks for it.

Already tried briefly in Reaper and have given up. So slow and un-intuitive compared to years of experience on BPP and of course BPP does a lot of stuff Reaper cannot at present.

I will try to keep some sort of explanatory log as I work.

A lot o fit will be very repetitive.
I have one track whee the timebase was not set in which I have to completely change the drum and bass parts throughout.

Assuming I can remember how, it should be an interesting exercise, which I do not expect to take long with.

See you soon
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 10:02 PM   #138
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 12,661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
As it happens I have a solo gig unexpectedly next Saturday so I will be working on my MIDI backing tracks for it.

Already tried briefly in Reaper and have given up. So slow and un-intuitive compared to years of experience on BPP and of course BPP does a lot of stuff Reaper cannot at present.

I will try to keep some sort of explanatory log as I work.

A lot o fit will be very repetitive.
I have one track whee the timebase was not set in which I have to completely change the drum and bass parts throughout.

Assuming I can remember how, it should be an interesting exercise, which I do not expect to take long with.

See you soon
Hi ivansc, yes I know I'd be interested what you're doing that's that much easier in BPP then Reaper and what methods you use.
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums -|- Elk Video Productions -|- Tod's Music
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 03:41 AM   #139
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 19,065
Default

Ha Ha! Bit punch drunk after about 3 hours sleep from last nights gig but I started editing drums this morning.

Had a really shitty internet backing track that I had topped and tailed just to have the tune in question available (a one-off request for a party) and have decided I liked it enough to keep it in the set.

Unfortunately I imported it into BPP and although the tempo said 110 etc the timebase was obviously set up for something different. Losing a quarter note every three or four bars!

Now sadly I no longer have the original SMF, just my lashup conversion in BPP format, so I cant retrieve the original timebase info.

So the task was to change all the bass drum patterns from a really british-sounding binary pattern to a nicer, looser, backbeat feel like the original.
So I lasso'ed the bass drum hits I didn't need and deleted them all in one go.
Lasso'ed all the ones that were forward and moved them all in one go. Lasso'ed the ones that were late and did same.a
Job done.
Bass line next as it needed to conform to the drums.
Again, lasso the ones I dont need for the whole track and delete, then move pitch for all the ones I need to shift.
In this case this was two operations as I had two separate notes to move by different numbers of half-steps.
Quite literally all you do is lasso the lot and drag them to the right pitch.
Finally one of the two moved notes needed to be slightly longer and the two OTHER notes left in the bassline needed to be a lot longer.
Select by lassoing or using the drop-down note filter menu.
Once selected load the note articulator [tool into the global toolbox and apply the right amount of proportional lengthening. Job done.
The note lengthening can be altered either by percentage increase/decrease or by a fixed number, or all notes to the same new length, btw.

It actually took me longer to remember how to do each step than it did to do it.

The alternative with "MIDI items" of course is just as do-able but if (as I do in my drum and instrumentation parts) you already have varying hit strengths, these are lost.

So it is beginning to look like selective lasso'ing and event filtering is a pretty crucial difference here.
Not that I am saying that Reaper doesn't have everything needed, just that it does not appear to be very well implemented at present.
Either that or I am thicker than I thought I was.

Next question?

P.S. Did I mention grid snap is a one-click change off any edit window? And that I can audition the changes as I make them within the MIDI editor and choose if I want to hear the changes in context of the rest of the parts or JUST the track I am editing? No scrubbing here, either. It all plays to tempo unless you tell it different.
Oh, and for lining up notes within several parts I can ghost in all or any or none of the other MIDI tracks to the track I am actually editing.

Last edited by ivansc; 12-16-2012 at 03:50 AM. Reason: More thoughts on stuff I tend to take for granted
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 09:50 AM   #140
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 12,661
Default

Cool ivan, your right, Reapers Filter Events needs some improvement, maybe in the coarse of these updates that will happen.

Quote:
Lasso'ed all the ones that were forward and moved them all in one go. Lasso'ed the ones that were late and did same.a
Job done.
Wouldn't quantizing using a percentage do this fairly nicely?

Quote:
Quite literally all you do is lasso the lot and drag them to the right pitch.
In Reaper you can Right/Click the note on the piano roll, I think that would be the same as lassoing them.

Quote:
The note lengthening can be altered either by percentage increase/decrease or by a fixed number, or all notes to the same new length, btw.
I think you can do the same thing with Reapers Quantize.

Quote:
So it is beginning to look like selective lasso'ing and event filtering is a pretty crucial difference here.
I'm not sure what you mean by "selective lasso'ing", in Reaper you can use Right/Click drag to select as many notes or events as you like, either all at once or individually if necessary, would that be the same?

Your right about the filtering but as I mentioned, maybe in this update.

Quote:
Oh, and for lining up notes within several parts I can ghost in all or any or none of the other MIDI tracks to the track I am actually editing.
Would that be similar to what's being worked on in Reaper right now with the (hopefully) new Track List?

Thanks for taking the time ivan.
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums -|- Elk Video Productions -|- Tod's Music
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 02:44 PM   #141
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 19,065
Default

Tod - "Wouldn't quantizing using a percentage do this fairly nicely?"

Only if the stuff you imported (MIDI) is in the correct timebase to start with.

If you have stuff that got recorded to a standard 120bpm at 192 with no reference to the actual tempo of the piece, which used to be very common with internetty backing tracks, you have nothing to quantise to.

Now I know this doesnt crop up every day but there again not every host ha adjustble timebase settings that can be tweaked to accomodate an unknown timebase or MIDI data that just ignores the timebase.

And tell me how you lasso every third note of a track with different pitches involved.

With BPP I can hop on and off of the shift button and bypass the stuff I dont want to select on the fly, whilst still lasso'ing the rest.
Admittedly I dont use this that often but it is comforting to know you could if you needed to.

Very little of the functionality I miss in reapers MIDI seems likely to be able to be implemented via any form of quantising I am aware of.

Bt YES we must keep positive and hope for the best.

I have some more MIDI stuff to do this week so I will try and keep documenting what I do.
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.