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Old 07-23-2010, 11:41 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Personally, i think takes can be improved a lot.

Especially for newbies who don't want complicated workarounds.

What improvements would the people who like it be afraid of having changed?

My biggest beefs with it currently is that the takes don't stay in their lanes, you can't change the timing of one without changing all of them, and you can't trim the start or ends without it effecting all of them.

Are these traits preferred for some of you?
this is my biggest beef as well.
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:46 AM   #42
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sorry but I didn´t understand the point, really.

#start_of_MY_opinion

I mean, of course a productive workflow is better, but sometimes we miss the thin line that separates the perfect-workflow to the start-going-lazy-now approach, don´t you guys agree? Aren´t some of you wanting to do a whole mix with a single click? Every task needs some hands-on to get completed...

Let´s take the example in the original post... 20 takes to record a vocal track? c´mon people, why dont you "waste" about 10min, let the singer rehearse over and over this track and THEN, when you hit [record], you´ll have something like 3 - 5 takes to chose the best parts and that´s it... if you need 20 takes to do something on your DAW, it means only you´re recording while you´re practicing the parts. Are you really ready to record at this point?

Even with 5 takes to chose the best parts from, whats the problem of slicing the best peaces each time and glue/render them in other to set the "this is it" for each part? I like the Takes AND the FreePositioning equally... it´s a matter of how you want to work, then simply do it.

#end_of_MY_opinion
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:46 AM   #43
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I don't understand that quoted bit... if you've not deleted anything, then the third take will always be take 3/3.... you can't record four takes and have only pressed record three times. :/
if you only have audio recorded from bar 4 until bar 8 and you record another take in that spot, it will show up as take 2. HOWEVER, if you now record from bar 2 until bar 10, part of this recorded audio shows up as take 1 and part of THE SAME RECORDING shows up as take 3, with these parts being in different lanes. not intuitive.
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:47 AM   #44
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I can understand the desire for lanes... I mean, it doesn't affect me, and if it would help you guys then that's cool. As long as only the selected take plays, that would be fine.

But, Kenny...
Why would you want to trim a single take? And what do you mean by changing the 'timing'? Are you referring to pitch/length alterations?

I'm not being facetious, I really do want to know. I never personally have run into a situation where I would need to do so, but you have probably 100x (or more!) the experience that I do, and I'd like to know what the issue is before I encounter it, so I can recognize it.
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:50 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Coerce View Post
Anyone saying the takes system is fine or giving work-arounds are missing the bigger picture.

It might be perfect or usable for you but the majority of people doing things like drums it's an unintuitive mess.

Adam's vid shows how broken it is best. If you can watch this and still say the takes system is fine, then words fail me :

http://www.screencast.com/users/f0rb...7-525951ceb3cb

I'm not a reaper hater, for me everything else works perfectly even though there's always room for a few tweaks. The takes system is the only big failing. If you tried to do what's in the video with 12 tracks of drums then reaper would fall to bits.

Lots of people have been asking for this to be fixed for the past 2 years so I wouldn't get your hopes up. Even a simple takes in lanes or auto-split off would make it usable.

This is one of the number one things that keeps new users away from reaper.
completely...completely....completely...

agree. I have been saying this (along with others) literally for years (as you say), so I agree that it's probably not a good idea to get your hopes up too much.
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:52 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by d. gauss View Post
if you only have audio recorded from bar 4 until bar 8 and you record another take in that spot, it will show up as take 2. HOWEVER, if you now record from bar 2 until bar 10, part of this recorded audio shows up as take 1 and part of THE SAME RECORDING shows up as take 3, with these parts being in different lanes. not intuitive.
They aren't lanes, they're a single item.
My question is, why would you ever need to rerecord the beginning and end of a take? Isn't the whole point of punching in and out to fix mistakes in the middle?
Also, the selected take always gets played. If you aren't zoomed in far enough to see every take, then that's your problem; zoom in, so you can see every piece, and select the bits that you like. Demo them in realtime, change them on the fly, and when you find a combo you're happy with, delete everything else.
I'm seriously trying to comprehend the problem here, but I can't fathom it. I guess my workflow is so different from yours that I don't understand how you even got yourself into the position that it is a problem.

Edit: Also, it's intuitive if you always remember that the newest takes are at the bottom; if you have to do what you described in your post, then the piece on the bottom is always the newest.
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Last edited by DuraMorte; 07-23-2010 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Addition
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:52 AM   #47
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I'm not Kenny but....

1. Vocal takes (for example) are fluid. You may need to trim individual takes to different lengths for audition purposes, deal with subsequent or previous part overlaps, before choosing one.

2. Timing wise, same thing. One take may be perfectly phrased but a bit late. How exactly can you adjust the timing of it alone without moving all of the other takes. Again, you'll audition them separately in context so I guess you'd have to stop between auditioning and move them back?

It just doesn't work well, you have to split up (explode) all the takes and then you lose the "takes" ability. Then of course takes not staying in common lanes don't help either.
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:53 AM   #48
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If after all these improvements you're all suggesting I still can:

1) Switch takes with one (or two) keys (select next/previous take)
2) Record in items as takes
3) Render active take as a new take (to apply take's envelope edits)
4) Play active take only (no matter its location in the item)
5) Move takes content (slip edit)

I won't complain

EDIT: I work with takes lanes off so I just deal with one take at a time (visually) and it's much faster/intuitive for me.
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:57 AM   #49
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i love the takes system in reaper and hope it never changes.
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:57 AM   #50
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20 takes to record a vocal track? c´mon people, why dont you "waste" about 10min, let the singer rehearse over and over this track and THEN, when you hit [record], you´ll have something like 3 - 5 takes to chose the best parts and that´s it... if you need 20 takes to do something on your DAW, it means only you´re recording while you´re practicing the parts. Are you really ready to record at this point?
takes aren't always about mistakes. i sometimes record a heavyweight old school R&B/jingle singer. she has amazing pitch and she works fast fast fast. she sings the root, doubles it, then triples it, then does the same for two or more harmony parts. that's 9-12 tracks of vocals and she does 'em fast and spot on and it can be hard to keep up. she doesn't even want to hear them played back. sometimes doing them all as takes on a single track and expanding to tracks later on works best for this.
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:59 AM   #51
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+1 for working on the takes system, again. And again.

Tallisman's four points are (and have been for a while) the most succinct explanation of what causes headaches for people who want takes improvements. Detractors, could you please explain how one or more of these will break the way takes works for you? Otherwise, it's a good outline for a solution, and won't mess up anybody who is happy with the takes system as is.

Thanks!

Tom

PS @ D.Gauss: Just get the musicians to all play it right the first time, man!
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:00 PM   #52
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Sometimes with vocals you record a bunch of takes just to see what happens musically. Run the standard melody 4-5 times and then let the vocalist do all kinds of things after that.

Happy accidents sometimes.

So the idea that "why not just rehearse more?" has little to do with that kind of production.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:02 PM   #53
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Lawrence,

I was being facetious there, if you were responding to my post. I completely agree with what you pointed out.

Tom
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:04 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by DuraMorte View Post

But, Kenny...
Why would you want to trim a single take? And what do you mean by changing the 'timing'? Are you referring to pitch/length alterations?
Imagine the singer coughs right after hitting a perfect note or some other extraneous noise happens. If I trim it back or cut it, I've done the same to all the takes. Maybe the singer sang a different phrase on some of the takes and I just like the first part. I can't delete the 2nd part?

As far as timing, sometimes the performance is out of time but awesome. Guitar player nailed it but missed the downbeat. So I want to split that note, manually move it and crossfade it into the section with it's neighbors. Right now that happens with every take that didn't have a problem. So it's a mess.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:05 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by gparreiras View Post
sorry but I didn´t understand the point, really.

#start_of_MY_opinion

I mean, of course a productive workflow is better, but sometimes we miss the thin line that separates the perfect-workflow to the start-going-lazy-now approach, don´t you guys agree? Aren´t some of you wanting to do a whole mix with a single click? Every task needs some hands-on to get completed...

Let´s take the example in the original post... 20 takes to record a vocal track? c´mon people, why dont you "waste" about 10min, let the singer rehearse over and over this track and THEN, when you hit [record], you´ll have something like 3 - 5 takes to chose the best parts and that´s it... if you need 20 takes to do something on your DAW, it means only you´re recording while you´re practicing the parts. Are you really ready to record at this point?

Even with 5 takes to chose the best parts from, whats the problem of slicing the best peaces each time and glue/render them in other to set the "this is it" for each part? I like the Takes AND the FreePositioning equally... it´s a matter of how you want to work, then simply do it.

#end_of_MY_opinion
Telling people "how" to produce records is not the best position for a DAW maker to be in.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:06 PM   #56
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From the way it works, I don't even think Reaper has a takes system. It has a continuous record view and a multi-lane record view. But, not takes.

Try using the current system to comp multiple takes of 12 tracks of drums. No thanks.

Things I agree with so far:
1) Don't renumber takes
2) Don't change lanes unless I physically move the take
3) Let me move the take to a new lane (might be able to do this already but every time I try, weird things happen)
4) Need to have a simple take priority method to determine which takes are heard during playback

There were other suggestions that I like, but these are the basic things that drive me nuts.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:06 PM   #57
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I was being facetious there, if you were responding to my post. Tom
Sorry man. My sarcasm radar is faulty.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:08 PM   #58
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My question is, why would you ever need to rerecord the beginning and end of a take? Isn't the whole point of punching in and out to fix mistakes in the middle?...<snip> I'm seriously trying to comprehend the problem here, but I can't fathom it. I guess my workflow is so different from yours that I don't understand how you even got yourself into the position that it is a problem.
just curious, do you record bands or just yourself? when i'm recording someone else and dollars are being spent, they aren't thinking about MY workflow, only theirs. they might punch a note on one take, and then say "hey let me do the 2 bars before that too." then they might go, "let me do those 2 bars but keep going until the bridge." and so on...
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:09 PM   #59
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takes aren't always about mistakes. i sometimes record a heavyweight old school R&B/jingle singer. she has amazing pitch and she works fast fast fast. she sings the root, doubles it, then triples it, then does the same for two or more harmony parts. that's 9-12 tracks of vocals and she does 'em fast and spot on and it can be hard to keep up. she doesn't even want to hear them played back. sometimes doing them all as takes on a single track and expanding to tracks later on works best for this.
i agree with you in this scenario, but I´d also try them in separate tracks since the begining... anyway, it´s just how I would do it...
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:11 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
Sorry man. My sarcasm radar is faulty.
No sweat! I think Kenny posted a much clearer explanation of what I was trying to say, anyway:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia
Telling people "how" to produce records is not the best position for a DAW maker to be in.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:14 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Telling people "how" to produce records is not the best position for a DAW maker to be in.
..and that is exactly why I put "#start_of_MY_opinion" and "#end_of_MY_opinion" on my post. If there are people prefering DAW X or DAW Y, nothing wrong when someone prefer workflow W or workflow Z, right? Not telling how to do things, just pointing my ideas IN CASE that anyone agrees or helps.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:19 PM   #62
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Am I correct in assuming that what most of us want is some of the features in "Free Item Positioning" without losing all of the benefits of working in "Takes"?
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:19 PM   #63
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No sweat! I think Kenny posted a much clearer explanation of what I was trying to say, anyway:
You Nu-Yawkers always stick together.

Anyway, nobody has mentioned the other issue, one single volume/fade handle for all takes in a vertical group? Again, when auditioning you want to hear in context and part of that comparative context might require event-level volume adjustments for some takes.

Or as Kenny kinda alluded to, what if you wanted to gain/trim a single phrase on a single take without doing the same for all takes? It's like A/B'ing anything else, you might want to do some level matching along the way.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:23 PM   #64
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Anyway, nobody has mentioned the other issue, one single volume/fade handle for all takes in a vertical group? Again, when auditioning you want to hear in context and part of that comparative context might require event-level volume adjustments for some takes.
I use takes' volume envelope for this.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:24 PM   #65
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You Nu-Yawkers always stick together.

Anyway, nobody has mentioned the other issue, one single volume/fade handle for all takes in a vertical group? Again, when auditioning you want to hear in context and part of that comparative context might require event-level volume adjustments for some takes.
ack good catch, forgot

5) each take is independent from an item management standpoint. All nudge, cutting, volume, crossover, etc.. should be available for each take.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:24 PM   #66
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..and that is exactly why I put "#start_of_MY_opinion" and "#end_of_MY_opinion" on my post. If there are people prefering DAW X or DAW Y, nothing wrong when someone prefer workflow W or workflow Z, right? Not telling how to do things, just pointing my ideas IN CASE that anyone agrees or helps.
Correct. And I agree with your ideas. I hate comping thru 28 takes of vocals. And I have had to on many occasions. Some singers come in for a couple of hours and that's all I get. They're on a plane and gone. So in those situations, I keep absolutely EVERYTHING they sing.

When I have time, I won't go above 8 takes and I prefer 4-6.

But what this community seems to be about is helping to improve software that ALL of us can use and love. Which is why you see people asking what features would be missed if takes is changed. We want Reaper to be great for everyone. And Dev team seems to agree.

So while your point is 100% valid, I'm not sure that it should effect what features get added or not.

Thanks for your insight.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:25 PM   #67
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5) each take is independent from an item management standpoint. All nudge, cutting, volume, crossover, etc.. should be available for each take.
As an option please, I like the 'grouping' behavior.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:25 PM   #68
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I use takes' volume envelope for this.
But there is only one for all takes. Again, during an A/B you might want to match levels of takes when auditioning while deciding which to use. I do this in Cubase, kinda premix the takes levels as I loop through parts and audition takes. One take may have one very soft word that needs gaining up by +8db.

It makes no sense I should have to gain up the same sections of every take, especially if that word (singing is fluid) is not even the exact same length on all the takes and the split isn't guaranteed to split them all correctly... just at the exact same places.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:27 PM   #69
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But there is only one for all takes. Again, during an A/B you might want to match levels of takes when auditioning while deciding which to use. I do this in Cubase, kinda premix the takes levels as I loop through parts and audition takes. One take may have one very soft word that needs gaining up by +8db.
Nope, each take has its own volume/pan/mute envelope.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:27 PM   #70
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just curious, do you record bands or just yourself? when i'm recording someone else and dollars are being spent, they aren't thinking about MY workflow, only theirs. they might punch a note on one take, and then say "hey let me do the 2 bars before that too." then they might go, "let me do those 2 bars but keep going until the bridge." and so on...
I record bands. Currently working on a 5-piece progressive death metal band.
They're tight, they know the material, and they're very hard to satisfy.
But I've never once had a problem with the take system while recording them.
If it gives you trouble, I hate to hear that; but it has served me well, and I have no complaints.

@Kenny
I've never really run into the first problem you mentioned, about the singer coughing immediately after a perfect note or whatever. I'd probably just split the item right after the perfect note, and use another section of the take for the rest. As long as it's not selected, I can't hear it. Once I've picked my favorite performance of the x number of run-throughs, I crop to active take and I'm done.

As far as the second, the guitar player who falls out of time with an excellent performance... it depends on how good the performance is, but I'm not afraid to tell them to play it again, even if it was really good. I'd rather them play it perfect than have to rely on manipulating waveforms to create the 'right' performance.

All that said, I understand the issue, and I'm not *against* the proposed changes, as long as the current functionality is maintained.

And I think your idea of a merger of FIP + takes is probably pretty accurate, based on the presiding opinions.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:28 PM   #71
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As an option please, I like the 'grouping' behavior.
I guess I look at it as we already having grouping functionality. I'm not saying do away with grouping. I'm saying takes are actual independent events that happen to be closely related to other events on an overlapping timeline.

I agree, that anything added needs to be configurable/toggleable(making up my own words now )
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:28 PM   #72
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You Nu-Yawkers always stick together.

Anyway, nobody has mentioned the other issue, one single volume/fade handle for all takes in a vertical group? Again, when auditioning you want to hear in context and part of that comparative context might require event-level volume adjustments for some takes.

Or as Kenny kinda alluded to, what if you wanted to gain/trim a single phrase on a single take without doing the same for all takes? It's like A/B'ing anything else, you might want to do some level matching along the way.
That's a great point. One of the benefits of Reaper over PT is that you can quickly change the volume of a phrase without using automation or destructive editing. Many times I'm comping a vocal and notice that some lines are louder than others and I fear that I'll choose the louder ones just because they are louder. So I absolutely want the ability to change the gain of a specific take.

UPDATE!!! - I'm a dope. You can do this with the take envelope.

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Old 07-23-2010, 12:29 PM   #73
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Nope, each take has its own volume/pan/mute envelope.
Ok, show me that. I've been doing it wrong I guess. Show me a stack of 4 takes (not FIPM but grouped takes) where each take has independent vol/fade with their own handles.

Thanks MN. I guess I missed that one. This is what I see, one volume handle and one fade handle for all takes... the blue line.

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Old 07-23-2010, 12:29 PM   #74
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All that said, I understand the issue, and I'm not *against* the proposed changes, as long as the current functionality is maintained.
Exactly my thoughts. +1
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:31 PM   #75
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The thing is for all the "takes system is perfect" guys, we're not saying rewrite the whole thing and change it completely. We're asking for 4 options that will rework the entire take system in to something usable for people with different work flows which should also improve the current system in small ways as well.

Most of the people working with the current take system don't seem to be multitracking things fast, drums etc, punching in and out fast, so obviously they haven't ran into the same problems as other people.

The beauty about reaper is that we can all customize the way it works to suit our own needs.

If I see an FR or something that might help other people but means nothing at all to me, I never jump in the thread and say no! or vote no on the fr.

Yes we're all entitled to our own opinions and allowed to voice them freely but when an issue has been bought up constantly and consistently for the past couple of years then maybe you should think twice and accept that maybe the takes system is broken for a lot of people.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:35 PM   #76
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The thing is for all the "takes system is perfect" guys,
all of them? I only saw one of them that thought it shouldnt change.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:36 PM   #77
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Ok, show me that. I've been doing it wrong I guess. Show me a stack of 4 takes (not FIPM but grouped takes) where each take has independent vol/fade with their own handles.

Thanks MN. I guess I missed that one. This is what I see, one volume handle and one fade handle for all takes... the blue line.

Here you go, red lines on each take:

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Old 07-23-2010, 12:37 PM   #78
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Here you go, red lines on each take:
Cool, thanks. How did you get there, pre-FX envelopes?
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:37 PM   #79
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The thing is for all the "takes system is perfect" guys, we're not saying rewrite the whole thing and change it completely. We're asking for 4 options that will rework the entire take system in to something usable for people with different work flows which should also improve the current system in small ways as well.
I, FWIW, never said the system was perfect. Only that I like it.
If changes are made that take away the negatives and enhance the positives, I'm all for them.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:38 PM   #80
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@ JBM: about the looped half take..by chance is loop items on in the defaults page of preferences?

@all: autosplitting and the issues of renaming that tallisman talked about with the take system drove and drives me nuts!.But time selection record and the sws Build lanes feature has helped somewhat..but..

@ T: what about the devs or someone fixing the swipe a comp macro that I could swear used to work. T would that alleviate the issues wit the takes?

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