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Old 09-27-2019, 10:40 AM   #1
Mage
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Default File / Render always makes the project [modified]

... even if I changed nothing in the Render screen.

Steps to reproduce:

1. Save your project
2. Render (without changing anything)
3. Try to close your project

Expected: the project closes
Happens: there is a popup, "Would you like to save the changes?"

Itís not a big issue although I prefer saving a file only when I am sure about every possible change in it. Thus, I check the undo history every time when the above happens. Thatís after each render.
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:55 AM   #2
akademie
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HI,
that's because the latest render settings are being written to the project file. The project file is modified after render with latest rendername etc.

It is good and also bad, for sure, because one can be confused if anything chenged on render, I mean other than render parameters itself. (You know, I like when I open a data file and I do not edit the file in any way, then it shouldn't ask me to save).

Here is the situation little bit different with those render settings, that's it.
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Old 09-28-2019, 01:35 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by akademie View Post
HI,
that's because the latest render settings are being written to the project file. The project file is modified after render with latest rendername etc.

It is good and also bad, for sure, because one can be confused if anything chenged on render, I mean other than render parameters itself. (You know, I like when I open a data file and I do not edit the file in any way, then it shouldn't ask me to save).

Here is the situation little bit different with those render settings, that's it.
Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote. I’m wondering since I wrote it that "when none of the render parameters changed". See step 2.

What is the change that makes the project dirty?

For example, if I open the render window, and I change the data, and then I close the popup with the ESC key or the Cancel button, the project doesn’t become dirty. That’s how it should be.

If I change the data, and I press the "Save changes and close" button, the project becomes dirty. That’s also the behavior I would expect, even though the button’s name could be improved. "Apply" or "Apply and close" would be better than "Save ...". Anyway, what it does is OK.

The only case when it’s weird is when I press the "Render" button without changing the render parameters. That’s the vast majority of the cases since I use $project in the path. I rarely have to change anything there.
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Old 09-28-2019, 02:28 PM   #4
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I think even when you do not change everything, but you use $project as filename, then actual filename is written to project file. I am not absolutelly sure, but you can try it for yourself.

Maybe trying to set filename to something user defined, such as "outputrender.wav" and trying to render like that will not rewrite it because it is in fact still the same. Of course there can be some dirty flag set no matter if it is different or not? :-/
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Old 09-29-2019, 06:48 AM   #5
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Yes, changes in the projectname/project folder/wildcards are written in the projectfile as well.
So any change in the render-settings must set the project to modified.

The question is now: what happens, if you don't change anything, not even the filename. Does this happen as well?
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Old 09-29-2019, 07:04 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mespotine View Post
The question is now: what happens, if you don't change anything, not even the filename. Does this happen as well?
Here yes.
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Old 09-29-2019, 02:32 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by mespotine View Post
Yes, changes in the projectname/project folder/wildcards are written in the projectfile as well.
So any change in the render-settings must set the project to modified.

The question is now: what happens, if you don't change anything, not even the filename. Does this happen as well?
Are you serious?

I wrote it in the original post twice, and later in another post that I’m talking about the case when you change nothing. Nothing does not mean "not too many things". It means, nothing. It also doesn’t mean "I changed something but didn’t notice it or I didn’t know it was a change".
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Old 09-29-2019, 07:46 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mespotine View Post
Yes, changes in the projectname/project folder/wildcards are written in the projectfile as well.
So any change in the render-settings must set the project to modified.

The question is now: what happens, if you don't change anything, not even the filename. Does this happen as well?
Mage, I think that the bold marked text in quoted post did mean the filename of the project itself, not the anything (filename) in the render dialog. This is also what I asked in my previous post because I have not reaper in front of me and cannot try it.

If you save project under new filename and render, then the filename of render will change in RPP file even if there is wildcard $project. And now nofish confirmed, that it really change the dirty/modified flag even if the filename of projec stays the same, that's it. No need to start flames please. We are trying to help, and so we need to understand the situation in deep.
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Old 09-30-2019, 01:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akademie View Post
Mage, I think that the bold marked text in quoted post did mean the filename of the project itself, not the anything (filename) in the render dialog. This is also what I asked in my previous post because I have not reaper in front of me and cannot try it.
I understand you don’t have Reaper installed, and yes, I was wondering why you didn’t try.

Okay.

"Always" is a strong word. I think three times before I used it. But I can explain what always means in this case.

1. Create a new project (Option-CMD-N, will open in a new tab).
2. Add a track.
3. Draw some MIDI item
4. Save the project. I used the following name: "Dirty.RPP".
5. Open the Render window. It will be set to your default project-render settings. The filename will be the same as the Reaper project’s name. For example, for me, it was Dirty.wv (wavpack) this time.
6. Do not change anything. No $project. No $magic. Nothing.
7. Press Save changes and close.
8. The project becomes dirty. Save it (CMD-S). It’s not dirty anymore. Except for its name.
9. Open the Render window again, and press Render 1 file...
10. The project becomes dirty again.
11. Close the render progress window.
12. Save the project. (Not "Save as". Just "Save". Like "Undirty it".)
13. Open the Render window
14. Press Render 1 file...
15. Press Overwrite (the existing file unless you deleted it)
16. The project gets dirty again.
17. Save it.
18. Open the Render window.
19. Press Render 1 file. Press Overwrite.
20. It gets dirty again.
....
202352115252. Open the Render window...

It will always get dirty.
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Old 09-30-2019, 02:06 PM   #10
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Yes, it works like that. You could always argue that it should work in a smarter way so that if nothing was changed then no write to the RPP is done, and hence no raising of the dirty flag, but for now this is what happens.

There are several similar issues where Reaper seemingly unnecessarily marks the project as dirty. For instance, open an existing project, open the FX window of any track, and bypass and then un-bypass any FX; now the dirty flag is set even though nothing has really changed. Press Ctrl+Z a few times to undo all the way back to the initial state, the dirty flag remains set. Things like that...

Hopefully we can get the attention of the developers to fix these things, but so far it seems that they have other things that they think are more urgent to fix. We have to accept that.
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Old 10-01-2019, 03:21 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
Yes, it works like that. You could always argue that it should work in a smarter way so that if nothing was changed then no write to the RPP is done, and hence no raising of the dirty flag, but for now this is what happens.

There are several similar issues where Reaper seemingly unnecessarily marks the project as dirty. For instance, open an existing project, open the FX window of any track, and bypass and then un-bypass any FX; now the dirty flag is set even though nothing has really changed. Press Ctrl+Z a few times to undo all the way back to the initial state, the dirty flag remains set. Things like that...
This is another story. I canít recall any software that will remove the dirty flag from the document when you go back in the undo history. Regarding the DAWs, this wouldnít even be a great idea because the vast majority of the VSTi-s wonít report every change you do to them. For example, ZebraHZ wonít report if you change the preset, but I could have picked up any of a few hundred plugins that have similar issues. In Ableton, you canít save a project thatís not dirty (unless you use Save As). It can lead to problems for the same reason. As soon as you do anything to a plugin, the project should remain dirty.

Quote:
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Hopefully we can get the attention of the developers to fix these things, but so far it seems that they have other things that they think are more urgent to fix. We have to accept that.
I donít get it. This is not a therapy. This is a bug report forum. Why do you say, "we have to accept that"?

I reported a bug. Thatís it.

You could add this to each thread then. But it translates to "The devs donít read this forum."

I hope and I believe they do.
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Old 10-01-2019, 03:40 AM   #12
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Yeah, you reported "possible bug", that's it.

But I wouldn't call it a bug in first place but definitelly kind of behavior that is not expected for some (many, all?) users.
So, to call it bug we would need (and be confirmed by developers) how this functionality is meant to be working. If it is intended by developer to work like that for any reason, then it is not a bug and we could create new thread in Feature Requests. This would be correct procedure, I think.
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Old 10-05-2019, 02:06 AM   #13
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Yeah, you reported "possible bug", that's it.

But I wouldn't call it a bug in first place but definitelly kind of behavior that is not expected for some (many, all?) users.
So, to call it bug we would need (and be confirmed by developers) how this functionality is meant to be working. If it is intended by developer to work like that for any reason, then it is not a bug and we could create new thread in Feature Requests. This would be correct procedure, I think.
Does rendering change anything in the project?
No. Then why it gets dirty?

Does making the project dirty on render have an advantage? Is there any use of it?
No.

Does making the project dirty on render have any disadvantage?
Yes. It confuses me whether I have unsaved changes. It makes me open the undo history every time, or at least think whether I saved it or not. It wastes my time.

Thatís a bug.

By the way, "Save changes and close" exhibits the same behavior.
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